Gospel of Judas

[Reba]

I don't.......however, there were reasons why they weren't included, and those reasons were political b/c the ones that were included allowed the Catholic church to retain its power and to play politics.

The Catholic church included the Apocrypha. It is the non-Catholic or Protestant Bible that does NOT include the Apocrypha. The KJV Bible that I use does NOT include the Apocrypha.

So, as you say, it was just the Catholic church that added books to its Bible many years after the original canon was established. The reason those books were added was to pervert the Word of God. That is the same reason people want to promote the "gospel" of Judas now--to pervert the Word of God.

 

[MorriganTait]

faith is more important than common sense.

Faith and commone sense need not be mutually exclusive.

 

[MorriganTait]

The discovery is quite interesting and challenges the thinking that Judas was a betrayer.

It still amazes me how angry many still seem to be at Judas. If Jesus' purpose was to live and teach and then give up his life for us, and if we are to find meaning in this sacrifice, then we must accept that Judas also had a purpose. There is no doubt to me that he was trusted, even loved, by Jesus. Jesus accepted his fate with dignity, and knew that one of his own was going to have to turn him in. He also knew that certain of his disciples would deny him. Doesn't it occur to anyone that the betrayl is necessary to bring about the sacrifice, and the denial is necessary to allow the disciples to continue Christ's work beyond his death? Why be angry or hateful? These men were only doing what they were supposed to.

 

[Teresh]

So, as you say, it was just the Catholic church that added books to its Bible many years after the original canon was established. The reason those books were added was to pervert the Word of God. That is the same reason people want to promote the "gospel" of Judas now--to pervert the Word of God.

Believe it or not Reba, no one is out to get you and other conservative Christians. There isn't some big conspiracy of us non-Christians and our liberal Christian allies going out of our way to make your life miserable. We don't care enough about what you believe in to make the effort to form such a conspiracy, either.

The concern here is that you rely on the Word of Man rather than the Word of God. You trust that Man is infallible when speaking about God--That priests can do no wrong, or that the Bible or Tanakh, which were written by Man, are flawless texts. You don't evaluate thoughts or ideas, you just accept them as fact without thinking. That is not being a good, faithful person or a servant of God but rather simple gullibility. Only a fool listens to an idea and accepts it as true without processing it.

My personal concern for you is the fact that you're smarter than that. You're an intelligent woman and reasonably well-educated. The notion that you would immediately assume an idea is true or false without attempting to process or ask why it is such is very confusing to me. It causes me to call into question whether or not you are what I thought you were, and to be honest, I don't like doubting my perceptions.

There are 5 W's and one H. When you hear something, ask yourself all six, not just who, what, when and where, but also why and how. You will learn so much more about the world around you if you look at everything and see meaning in it, just nost the hard details.

 

[Boult]

If I went back in time and changed what books were put in the official bible, then Christians would be defending those books, such as the gospels of Thomas, Mary and Judas, and using II Corinthians 11:3 and Galatians 1:6 against some or all of those: Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, if I bothered to put II Corinthians and Galatians into the bible.

What Christians accept now is a product of what beliefs won out back then by successfully surpressing other beliefs.

indeed!

 

[Boult]

Neecy, AMEN!!!!!!! (no pun intended) There's all that aprocrepea out there, (books that were orgionally part of the Bible in the beginning) that aren't any more. The Bible is NOT what God wants us to read.....but rather the Bible was selected by MAN for political reasons!

actually "religion" is oldest politics!
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/04/08/religion-the-root-of-all-evil/#comment-80075
I agree with this comment;

Tamim,
Objectively, religion IS politics (the art or science of government) and it is the oldest form of politics. In essense, the main purpose of even pre-historic religions was to define a framework for how people should live together in the tribe, village, nation, country…
That is why political bigots, like the Bush, are the most dangerous and intolerant, because they claim that God, Batman, or some other supernatural being that is hard to argue with has sanctioned their politics.

 

[Liza]

It doesn't hurt to have discernment or benefit of the doubt where those things are concerned.

There's an article on this at Yahoo News.

I found those quotes from the Yahoo article interesting.

--------------------

*snip*

But it does show the diversity of beliefs in early Christianity, said Marvin Meyer, professor of Bible studies at Chapman University in Orange, Calif.

*snip*

Christianity in the ancient world was much more diverse than it is now, with a number of gospels circulating in addition to the four that were finally collected into the New Testament, noted Bart Ehrman, chairman of religious studies at the University of North Carolina.

*snip*

"However," he said, "this will not greatly affect the central belief that considers Judas as a traitor, but there is an old school of thought that says one should not persecute Judas because his role was to complete the prophecies. It seems that the new manuscript will support this point of view — that Judas' role was pivotal to completing the prophecies."

*snip*

In addition to radio carbon dating, the manuscript was also authenticated through ink analysis, multispectral imaging, content and linguistic style and handwriting style, National Geographic reported.

----------

I feel like we were part of a giant social experiment that was started thousands of years ago. Funny to think about. More at http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/

 

[hottiedeafboi]

I think all of this missing a point what the Bible is telling you. Bible is not just history story telling, Bible is The message to point out about salvation, we are in the world with politics and human theories and lots of religions conflicts. Trying to find how, what when, where and etc as we seen enough, who is the True Messiah, and no doubt Jesus. Yes, there is arugments of different interpretations. But simple is this, Jesus was born by virgin Mary, Jesus did born become human like us, but no sin in Him. Jesus did died on the cross to pay our sin debt in full, what judas did, what peter did and what other disciples did is the purpose of Jesus death, then soldier were watched at the tomb after they sealed the tomb. But they can't keep Him in the grrave. Jesus has risen and later acsended to heaven to be with Father and later send the Holy Spirit. That's the key message, u either receive Him or reject Him, He's not forcible, but open arms as He said ANYONE comes to Me, I will not turn my back on him or her. That's what this message is about. Not just finding all the just only history, but the message. That's all to it.

 

[Reba]

It still amazes me how angry many still seem to be at Judas. ..

It surprises me. I didn't know that people were still angry at Judas, and I've never heard anyone express "anger" at him. Judas punished himself when he hanged himself, and God judged him after that, so there is no need for people today to feel anger against him. There is also no reason to feel sympathy for him, or make excuses for him, or try to repair his reputation thru the promotion of a false "gospel". Judas heard Jesus preach, and he had every opportunity to repent his sin and be saved from condemnation. He made his own choices. Think about Paul. He actively persecuted Christians but he repented and became saved, and became a faithful apostle of Jesus Christ. But Judas took a different route.

 

[Reba]

Believe it or not Reba, no one is out to get you and other conservative Christians. There isn't some big conspiracy of us non-Christians and our liberal Christian allies going out of our way to make your life miserable.

My life is far from miserable.

I don't believe there are people against me; I'm not that important. The attack is against Jesus Christ and His diety, and God's Word.

The concern here is that you rely on the Word of Man rather than the Word of God. You trust that Man is infallible when speaking about God--That priests can do no wrong, or that the Bible or Tanakh, which were written by Man, are flawless texts.

You are "concerned" about what I rely on; that's interesting.

The Holy Bible is the Word of God. If you believe the Bible is not the Word of God, then how do you believe God communicates with us? If you don't trust the Bible, what do you trust?

BTW, I never said that priests or pastors can do no wrong. My only High Priest is Jesus Christ. (Just for the record, I'm a member of an independent Baptist church, so we don't have "priests".)

You don't evaluate thoughts or ideas, you just accept them as fact without thinking. That is not being a good, faithful person or a servant of God but rather simple gullibility. Only a fool listens to an idea and accepts it as true without processing it.

So, you know for a fact my thought processes, and think you are qualified to judge them? Interesting. Inaccurate and insulting, but also interesting.

... The notion that you would immediately assume an idea is true or false without attempting to process or ask why it is such is very confusing to me.

That's because your assumption that I "immediately assume an idea is true or false without attempting to process or ask why" is false.

You don't see the research that I do prior to many of my reply posts. You don't see the stack of reference books next to my computer. You don't hear the questions I ask at church. You don't see me spending time in prayer seeking answers.

But really, all that personal stuff is not important.

There are 5 W's and one H. When you hear something, ask yourself all six, not just who, what, when and where, but also why and how. You will learn so much more about the world around you if you look at everything and see meaning in it, just nost the hard details.

Not to be rude, but Philosophy 101--been there, done that, many years ago. Since I worked for 24 years as a journalist, I've got the "5 W's and one H" down pretty good. (BTW, even the "how" does have a "w" on the end )

 

[hottiedeafboi]

AMEN, REBA!!!!!!!! We re miserable? U r so right, bec Christ never make me miserable. Only miserable is this world, yes, enjoying Gods creations, but people constant attack, mostly Satanic attack and working so hard to prevent spiritual blind from seeing the truth. So many work so hard finding faults against Christ and the t3eaching, and claoming the proof. But anger and hostilities isn't worth it and not only that, blaming on christians causing the turmoil isn't so, its people rebellions. Just like kids rebel against their own parents. Smile....RRRRReeebbaa

 

[Rose Immortal]

You always seem to make me smile, HDB.

I would just make one point in this thread...could we please be careful about the comments made about Catholics? I may not agree with Catholicism itself, but I'm not about to label my Catholic friends and family as heretics...

 

[netrox]

Faith and commone sense need not be mutually exclusive.

They don't but I still stand that common sense is more important than faith. Better to have a comon sense to know that if you stand in front of a passing car, you'll be injured or killed than to have a faith in God to save your life!

If you're faced with a situation that common sense doesn't apply due to ignorance (not in a negative tone), then faith is all you have left.

 

[Teresh]

My life is far from miserable.

I don't believe there are people against me; I'm not that important. The attack is against Jesus Christ and His diety, and God's Word.

I didn't say you were miserable, only that you think there is a group of people out to get you and people like you. You have a peculiar fascination with a dead guy. You may want to believe that he's God incarnate, in Heaven, rose from the dead and will judge the good and bad when they die and all that fun stuff, but regardless, he lived, he died, and that's all that's clear. I'd prefer to think of God as a noncorporeal superbeing rather than something of the flesh.

You are "concerned" about what I rely on; that's interesting.

Whenever I see a bigot who is intelligent, it bothers me because it is people like you who not only posess hate, but also have the intelligence and knowledge to promote it well. The fact that you do promote hate whether you'll admit it or not, on this thread hate of Non-Christian religious beliefs, is proof positive that you are a hypocrite. You claim to be against hate and then, a few seconds later, actively promote it by claiming it's "God's Will" or "God's Way" (and implying that all other ways are wrong).

It is people like you who go out of your way to make life more difficult to people like me, whereas people like me do not reciprocate that. If I don't go out of my way to make your life more difficult, why do you?

The Holy Bible is the Word of God. If you believe the Bible is not the Word of God, then how do you believe God communicates with us? If you don't trust the Bible, what do you trust?

I trust in most of the Tanakh with the understanding that it may have flaws and needs to be interpreted in light of when, where, and why it was written as well as who wrote it. I also trust my own personal experiences, miracles which I have experienced (such as my hearing aid recovering from a bout with the washing machine--I've named it "Jesus") and the direct connection with God I have when I pray and meditate.

I don't trust the words of men over those of God.

So, you know for a fact my thought processes, and think you are qualified to judge them? Interesting. Inaccurate and insulting, but also interesting.

I only understand your way of thinking so much as you let on in the way that you post. I could be off the mark and my entire perception of you may be a sham, an act, but unless you are living a lie here on AD, my summation of you is more accurate than you'd like to accept.

You don't see the research that I do prior to many of my reply posts. You don't see the stack of reference books next to my computer. You don't hear the questions I ask at church. You don't see me spending time in prayer seeking answers.

No, I don't. I can only imagine that like web your research is from not credible or heavily biased sources not willing to consider other ideas. I can only imagine what you consider "reference books". I can only imagine what kind of questions you ask in church to a group of people who think and act like you do. I can only imagine what kind of God you pray to if you get hateful answers or no answers at all.

Not to be rude, but Philosophy 101--been there, done that, many years ago. Since I worked for 24 years as a journalist, I've got the "5 W's and one H" down pretty good. (BTW, even the "how" does have a "w" on the end )

You acknowledge the six words, but do you understand them? Do you apply them in your life? Based on my perception of you, which comes soley from your posting on these forums, no, you don't. And I wouldn't consider "how" a "W" just because it has one at the end.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

ALL christians hate and causing problem? The answer is no.yes, I met a lot of christians has inappropriate behaviors. But there are few very godly people who has the image of Christ in them. Common sense----short lived. Faith--- last for lifeime and more expensive as gold. Look at Jesus so much loved to the people and compassion, but what people do to Him? Even Judas, angry at judas for what he did? No,,bec that's Gods plan. No Jesus death meaning all doomed. No, there is no end of life. There is life after death. Even sadduccees (religious) doesn't believe life after death. Have u notice, the name which I never thought of??? SAD-U-SEE? That's sounds so familiar, it is so sad when many denied and refuse to accept the simple faith. Angry and insult u can decide if I am, which is not true and even reba or rose or cyber. Yes, if u look at little house on the prairie, both olesons and ingalls go to same church, but respond and act differently. U can't determine and blame ALL christians has the same behavior. What Christ shows, I do the same and ask Him to help me and show me the way. I have seen it. And reba has too, so does cyber, rose and others who have strong faith in christ, not man and scientist.

 

[Teresh]

ALL christians hate and causing problem? The answer is no.yes, I met a lot of christians has inappropriate behaviors. But there are few very godly people who has the image of Christ in them.

You're making the assumption that anyone thinks otherwise. It's not Christians I have a problem with. It's hypocritical "Christians" who are a mockery of everything that Christianity was formed for that I have a problem with.

Common sense----short lived. Faith--- last for lifeime and more expensive as gold.

Common sense without faith is called Atheism. Faith withoud common sense is called Fundamentalism. Ideally a person is pragmatic. Not on either extreme, but rather in the middle somewhere.

There is life after death.

There's no way of proving this, but I certainly agree.

Even sadduccees (religious) doesn't believe life after death. Have u notice, the name which I never thought of??? SAD-U-SEE?

:roll: Lost in the translation.

U can't determine and blame ALL christians has the same behavior.

I don't think anyone categorised Christianity. Who are you addressing?

What Christ shows, I do the same and ask Him to help me and show me the way. I have seen it. And reba has too, so does cyber, rose and others who have strong faith in christ, not man and scientist.

You have faith in Man over faith in God. Man is who told you about God. You would not know God existed if Man did not tell you that God does. The difference between you and Reba and myself is that I ignore the teachings of Man and instead focus on getting from from God. I get my religion from the Source, and therefore trust in it completely.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

There is categorized christians. All have different level. U think I have faith in man, not true, bec I grew up with no knowledge and understand of God, but something draw me somewhere and that later in life, when I asked Christ to come in to my life and wow, what a change and sense of God's presence. And everyday I have seen God at work in me and learned in life thru my failure and success. Before I gave my life to Christ, I don't understand anything, but when I receive Christ in me, there's a changing and eye opener and getting the whole picture in the Bible. its so dangerous to rely on man's teaching with out God's guidance by the Holy Spirit. There in life of common sense and faith is worth of living. Even God gives us common sense. And I must be cautious who is teaching and what. As Jesus said, "go ye therefore, teach all nations and baptized in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit". Who established church? Jesus. What's the purpose of the church, to worship, learn, to grow, fellowship and etc. If Jesus is so loving and truthful, why turn ur back on Him. And why so hard on christians. Some christians been gone to far and some live like Christ. During the time, when Saul ready to persecuting the christians, on the way there, bight light blinding him and heard a voice and Jesus asked saul why have u persecuting Me? He didn't ask why u persecuting the christians, bec Christ is in them. That's when later his name saul change to paul. God is Love, but mankind turn their back on God, and Jesus said, noone will come lest God draws them. There are some are hypocrisy and living like hypocrisy, I meant some, not all. God works differently on each believer. Its not just religious thing, its fulfilling life which I enjoying of daily worship and learnand still learning by Him by the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[MorriganTait]

Better to have a comon sense to know that if you stand in front of a passing car, you'll be injured or killed than to have a faith in God to save your life!

I don't know about you, but I don't know a single adult of normal faculties and reasonable intelligence who would behave this way, and using it as an example is ludicrous, and does not prove your point. It is an example of an argumental fallacy.

Indeed, there are Christians, and members of other religions, who practice various forms or faith healing (heck, I have a faith healing congregation catty-corner from my house) but they tend be on the fringe and disregarded as cult or cult-like by main-streamers. Again, this isn't what we were talking about in your original premise anyway. These people were not escewing medical treatment in favor of intercessonary prayer. Prayer was being used in conjunction with medical protocols.

 

[MorriganTait]

There is also no reason to feel sympathy for him, or make excuses for him, or try to repair his reputation thru the promotion of a false "gospel".

It is exactly this kind of statement by you that makes me think people still malign Judas and it never occurs to them that Judas had a specific job to do, and he was appointed by God to do it. His reputation should have always been as a servant who did what we might see as "unthinkable", but did it because it was necessary to bring about Jesus' sacrifice. Judas was as much an instrument of God as any of the other players in the story.

Judas heard Jesus preach, and he had every opportunity to repent his sin and be saved from condemnation.

You can't possibly know if Judas' repented, or how he was regarded by God in the end. You deny the validity of any account he might make of his own expereince with Jesus (his good news or "Gospel"), and it's incredibly presumtuous for you to say what condition his soul was in. If his actions were ordained by God, how could they also be sin? Its that same old silly "anger" rearing its head again. We want to see Judas as the enemy to Jesus, instead of an instrument of God. If Jesus was born to be sacrified, Judas was born to play his part too. Enough with 2000 years of blame and finger pointing.

 

[Teresh]

As Jesus said, "go ye therefore, teach all nations and baptized in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit".

Citation? I don't recall that.

Who established church? Jesus.

Yeshua was a Jew. The Church was not established until after he died.

If Jesus is so loving and truthful, why turn ur back on Him.

Who said I did? I never said I rejected Yeshua or his teachings. You're making the typical assumption that Christianity is the only religion in existence (and that all other religions are bad and need to be erradicated, aka ethocentricism).

And why so hard on christians. Some christians been gone to far and some live like Christ.

If you promote bigotry, hypocrisy and hate as some Christians (and indeed, some on this forum do), you are not trying to be like Yeshua.

He didn't ask why u persecuting the christians, bec Christ is in them.

Wrong. He didn't ask that because there weren't any Christians until after he died.