Enough is Enough...

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

nope, we know what caused my daughter's loss. It was someone's fault, but there is nothing we can do about it now.

How so?

If it was someone's fault, why is there nothing you can do about it?

what could possibly be done? She's deaf, nothing can change that.

she is deaf due to a doctor's mistake at her birth. She had severe birth trauma that led to needing serious medical interventions, any one of which could have produced her loss (or simply the long term lack of oxygen).

again, when you have faced the very real possibilty of your child's death, a hearing loss is not something you grieve.

 

[Rampratt]

Well, here goes again! First going to steal Alicias post or part of it here.
Ryancher- I believe jenny could direct you to maybe other parents of deaf children in your area..as far as another online community I'm sure CI circle would be the best route because the parents there have gone through what you are going through at some point in time or are going through it now and thinking about a CI for their child
Let's face it folks, we live in a hearing world! People that are hard of hearing or deaf are handicapped. I know, many say they can do everything a hearing person can do but that is just not true. There are many jobs that only hearing people can do and not many if any that only deaf people can do. Now lets look at another thing, when one is born, sound is sound and with no meaning. As time goes on and one is exposed to sound it takes on meaning. It may be English, Spanish, Chinese or what ever but it takes on meaning. Now if we look at children, they do not have the experience to make decisions for themselves and that is why in most areas they have to be at least 16 to make many of the decisions. So as parents, its up to us to do what we feel is best for the children. Most of us want to have our children have as much opportunity for success as possible. If we are able to implant a CI in a very young child, he/she will hear sound and eventually it will become meaning. Speech may come a little harder but even that can be accomplished. We have some people that can talk that are totally deaf from birth. As a youngster I lived near one so do know from experience. Yes she sounded different but certainly understandable. From that point of view, if two babies are side by side and one deaf and the other hearing and we could implant the deaf with CI's they would develop very much the same. Sound and meaning would come about the same to both of them, depending on brain power I guess as we know all are not exactly the same. At least we will hope that we have done what is best for the child and give him/her the best opportunity for success in life. Hearing is VERY important for both safety and communication. It's unfortunate that some of us just don't have "normal" hearing. Then again it's great that we have advanced to the point that we don't have to use the cow horn to hear and have marvelous electronic gadgets and getting better all the time.

 

[deafdyke]

Think of it this way ..a huge part of my family is italian, we speak italian, i have a child that can't speak at all and now everyone has to learn a new language..

It's not impossible but it's also not easy..for some ppl they decide to learn it no prob but the fact of the matter is its not a piece of cake and not to mention some ppl can't afford to take ASL classes, myself included. Also what the hell is wrong with wanting your child to speak your language? I mean obviously if it doesn't happen it doesn't happen and ASL is a great language to learn..but some ppl just don't want to and I don't think we should hold a grudge against the ppl who would rather their children speak and talk in the same language that they speak

From what I understand, it does seem that there are parents who simply want their child's first language to be speech. They're not anti ASL....they are OK with it being their kid's second language. As long as a kid is CAREFULLY monitored....and it does seem like now a days the private oral preschools are a lot more open to suggesting that maybe the kid needs ASL sooner rather then later, if they're not exactly cottoning to speech. Unfortunatly there are still many kids who fall through the cracks. There's also the fact that the gross majority of kids tend to do well early on, but then start really struggling around 4th or 5th grade. Mainstream middle and high school are HORRIBLE for even nondisabled kids. Why not have the Deaf Schools reach out to those kids so they can learn ASL as a second language, and have a refugee from the hell that is mainstream middle and high school? After all now a days, most kids can aquire hoh levels of speech. It's no longer "second grade and only a handful of words" It really does help with friendship and ALSO helps with the simple fact that most dhh kids are strong visual processors. No kid should ever have to discover ASL on their own and have to ask their parents " Why didn't you expose me to ASL or deaf ed?"

And for some, a characteristic of our child -- whether she has brown eyes or blue, is tall or short, has an aptitude for math or not, is deaf or hearing -- doesn't necessarily bring on feelings of grief or sorrow, especially if we didn't have an expectation of blue eyes, or math genius, or even hearing. I don't feel a sense of loss -- perhaps because my daughter was born deaf and I had nothing to do with that, but maybe a lack of grief would have been the case for me no matter what.

I think the reason why a lot of us speak out against oral only is b/c it really does seem to be strongly linked to the whole grieving process. " Oh my child isn't "normal"....there's an education method that can make it seem like they're "normal". I will chose that!"
It's true. Look at the language used in ads in AG Bell publications......" our school doesn't use Sign" " this auditory verbal method does not use Signs or speechreading or cued speech!" Heck, Ag Bell's motto is "Freedom in Listening and Talking" That means they view Sign as a "crutch" and that speech, speech and even more speech is the most important thing.
And a lot of the decision making is subconscious. Heck even thinking " Oh oral only will give my kid a "better" education is pretty much that thinking. (and many parents do chose oral only b/c they are subconsciously taught to think " Oh....ASL is the cause of low reading scores," without realizing that the low reading and acheivement scores are common in oral only too!

 

[BecLak]

Oral only for deaf takes considerable effort. Sign language is vital so that the deaf person can have a choice whether to speak or not. It can be exhausting if this option is not made available to them. A deaf person can be oral, it is achieveable with or without assistive devices but not without a price paid, either by pure determination (without) or by surgeries and therapies and huge financial costs (with).

 

[shel90]

Well, here goes again! First going to steal Alicias post or part of it here.
Ryancher- I believe jenny could direct you to maybe other parents of deaf children in your area..as far as another online community I'm sure CI circle would be the best route because the parents there have gone through what you are going through at some point in time or are going through it now and thinking about a CI for their child
Let's face it folks, we live in a hearing world! People that are hard of hearing or deaf are handicapped. I know, many say they can do everything a hearing person can do but that is just not true. There are many jobs that only hearing people can do and not many if any that only deaf people can do. Now lets look at another thing, when one is born, sound is sound and with no meaning. As time goes on and one is exposed to sound it takes on meaning. It may be English, Spanish, Chinese or what ever but it takes on meaning. Now if we look at children, they do not have the experience to make decisions for themselves and that is why in most areas they have to be at least 16 to make many of the decisions. So as parents, its up to us to do what we feel is best for the children. Most of us want to have our children have as much opportunity for success as possible. If we are able to implant a CI in a very young child, he/she will hear sound and eventually it will become meaning. Speech may come a little harder but even that can be accomplished. We have some people that can talk that are totally deaf from birth. As a youngster I lived near one so do know from experience. Yes she sounded different but certainly understandable. From that point of view, if two babies are side by side and one deaf and the other hearing and we could implant the deaf with CI's they would develop very much the same. Sound and meaning would come about the same to both of them, depending on brain power I guess as we know all are not exactly the same. At least we will hope that we have done what is best for the child and give him/her the best opportunity for success in life. Hearing is VERY important for both safety and communication. It's unfortunate that some of us just don't have "normal" hearing. Then again it's great that we have advanced to the point that we don't have to use the cow horn to hear and have marvelous electronic gadgets and getting better all the time.

Posts like these are how the fights start...

"Hearing is important for safety and communication"

Oh brother..iam so out of here.

 

[Frisky Feline]

Posts like these are how the fights start...

"Hearing is important for safety and communication"

Oh brother..iam so out of here.

yeah.

Like I was going to say, ASL is important for safety and communication at the earliest age such as newborn as well!

eh.

actually small kids can learn both, ASL and speak at the earliest ages. they can.

 

[BecLak]

Communication is not totally dependent on sound alone.

 

[dogmom]

Shel, Frisky and BecLak, I was thinking that too, when I read that!

 

[deafbajagal]

Well, here goes again! First going to steal Alicias post or part of it here.
Ryancher- I believe jenny could direct you to maybe other parents of deaf children in your area..as far as another online community I'm sure CI circle would be the best route because the parents there have gone through what you are going through at some point in time or are going through it now and thinking about a CI for their child
Let's face it folks, we live in a hearing world! People that are hard of hearing or deaf are handicapped. I know, many say they can do everything a hearing person can do but that is just not true. There are many jobs that only hearing people can do and not many if any that only deaf people can do. Now lets look at another thing, when one is born, sound is sound and with no meaning. As time goes on and one is exposed to sound it takes on meaning. It may be English, Spanish, Chinese or what ever but it takes on meaning. Now if we look at children, they do not have the experience to make decisions for themselves and that is why in most areas they have to be at least 16 to make many of the decisions. So as parents, its up to us to do what we feel is best for the children. Most of us want to have our children have as much opportunity for success as possible. If we are able to implant a CI in a very young child, he/she will hear sound and eventually it will become meaning. Speech may come a little harder but even that can be accomplished. We have some people that can talk that are totally deaf from birth. As a youngster I lived near one so do know from experience. Yes she sounded different but certainly understandable. From that point of view, if two babies are side by side and one deaf and the other hearing and we could implant the deaf with CI's they would develop very much the same. Sound and meaning would come about the same to both of them, depending on brain power I guess as we know all are not exactly the same. At least we will hope that we have done what is best for the child and give him/her the best opportunity for success in life. Hearing is VERY important for both safety and communication. It's unfortunate that some of us just don't have "normal" hearing. Then again it's great that we have advanced to the point that we don't have to use the cow horn to hear and have marvelous electronic gadgets and getting better all the time.

I find this post to be downright offensive, demeaning, and discriminatory.

 

[dogmom]

Yes....

 

[posts from hell]

I find this post to be downright offensive, demeaning, and discriminatory.

When I first saw it, I had to leave the thread.

 

[jenniifer]

I find this post to be downright offensive, demeaning, and discriminatory.

Why is it demeaning - is it because of the way it is worded, saying that the deaf are handicapped, etc or is it because from experience, those of you who were born deaf either
1.) do not think CI's work or help

2.) feel that deaf is what you are and that no one should try to change it ?

3.) find the statement that deaf people can't do most jobs to be untrue (I agree with this, I think it is the opposite...there are probably very few jobs that a deaf person CAN'T do)

I am not challenging anyone, I truly am trying to understand.
I obviously need to do some research on CI, HA, all that stuff, because there are so many things I do not know. The way I would probably do things if I were a parent with a child who was deaf or HOH, I would do both...see if oral could be possible, but learn ASL with my child at the same time. Not focus on one more than the other.

My take on this whole thing is that the OP needs to find a forum for parents of deaf children. They can understand where she is coming from, offer sympathy, unquestioning support. However, the people here are the only one's who can tell her what her child is going to face, what he is going to have to deal with in his life, what the effects of a parent's decisions will have on him in the long run - which I would think would be of major importance. Advice she will get plenty of here, but sympathy and warm fuzzy hugs - probably not so much of. Those things will not be of practical use to the most important person, her son.

Also, from what I have noticed, parents sincerely truly looking for advice with an open minded attitude do not get jumped on...it is the one's that come on here saying "I know what you all believe, but I am going to do it this way because I think I am right and F you if you don't like it" They have already made up their mind, and maybe in some warped way are hoping to justify their choices, so they come on here to rub it in, with a passive aggressive approach of course, and the people here see right through it.

 

[GrendelQ]

Well, here goes again! First going to steal Alicias post or part of it here.
Ryancher- I believe jenny could direct you to maybe other parents of deaf children in your area..as far as another online community I'm sure CI circle would be the best route because the parents there have gone through what you are going through at some point in time or are going through it now and thinking about a CI for their child
Let's face it folks, we live in a hearing world! People that are hard of hearing or deaf are handicapped. I know, many say they can do everything a hearing person can do but that is just not true. There are many jobs that only hearing people can do and not many if any that only deaf people can do. Now lets look at another thing, when one is born, sound is sound and with no meaning. As time goes on and one is exposed to sound it takes on meaning. It may be English, Spanish, Chinese or what ever but it takes on meaning. Now if we look at children, they do not have the experience to make decisions for themselves and that is why in most areas they have to be at least 16 to make many of the decisions. So as parents, its up to us to do what we feel is best for the children. Most of us want to have our children have as much opportunity for success as possible. If we are able to implant a CI in a very young child, he/she will hear sound and eventually it will become meaning. Speech may come a little harder but even that can be accomplished. We have some people that can talk that are totally deaf from birth. As a youngster I lived near one so do know from experience. Yes she sounded different but certainly understandable. From that point of view, if two babies are side by side and one deaf and the other hearing and we could implant the deaf with CI's they would develop very much the same. Sound and meaning would come about the same to both of them, depending on brain power I guess as we know all are not exactly the same. At least we will hope that we have done what is best for the child and give him/her the best opportunity for success in life. Hearing is VERY important for both safety and communication. It's unfortunate that some of us just don't have "normal" hearing. Then again it's great that we have advanced to the point that we don't have to use the cow horn to hear and have marvelous electronic gadgets and getting better all the time.

Rampratt, I'm hesitating to respond because I'm not 100% sure I get your post -- are you being satirical and parodying a perspective or playing it straight?

 

[jillio]

Hmm. I had no expectations and am glad to have my child as she is, profoundly deaf. One of the larger problems was confronting a grieving extended family and friends- and convincing them there is nothing to grieve. My child will be a happy, normal kid, but she'll communicate a little differently than her peers. There is nothing to grieve.

The worst of it was navigating an adult peer group in denial, or grieving.

So, when your wife was pregnant, you never once had any fantasies about the child that was to be born?

 

[jillio]

I feel exactly the same. I've felt grief, and I know without a doubt that there was and is no grief whatsoever when it comes to my child!

Refusing to accept it does not mean that it isn't there. And, again, you are twisting the point intentionally. It is not grief for your child. That has been explained time and time again.

And your situation is a bit different as you are an adoptive parent. Not that you love your child any less, but the experience of pregnancy has its own issues regarding expectations and things that must be let go of in order to accept what is.

 

[jillio]

Faire and Grendel, I disagree. As parents we do grieve. We worry about what may happen tomorrow or in a year. We debate every decision that is to be made. We look for blame - why did this happen? Was it something I did wrong? It happens. If it isn't happening now it will happen later when your kids are teased, or when they don't get a job, or when someone questions their abilities. This a natural part of parenthood - grieving what the child misses out on despite the efforts.

See what I mean, JennyB. How can one offer support when the one requesting is totally rejects everything that is said? And wait, soon the anger and the name calling will begin because those who have experienced this and have seen it in others insists that grieving is a part of the process of acceptance.

Yeah, I agree: enough is enough.

 

[jillio]

I agree with Jenny... I did grieve... and somedays I still do.

When we first received Tyler's actual diagnosis at 12 weeks old, I went through emotions... I felt denial, anger, guilt, resentment. I was grief stricken. And this lasted awhile. I tried to keep strong and convey to other family members that Tyler was no different... but it was overwhelming.

Eventually... I came to the realization that Tyler is different... we are all different. That is what makes each of unique. Tyler is happy and healthy and that is all that should matter. I admit somedays I'm still worried about Tyler's future and what road he will lead us on... but I know in my heart, God brought him into our lives for a reason... and I look forward to sharing it with him.

I won't deny the truth... I would love Tyler to share our language - spoken english. But if he chooses otherwise, I will follow him. So, in the meantime, I am providing him with both ASL and english... although he is definetely communicating with ASL right now. We'll have to see what the future holds for Tyler and our family.

And the honesty with which you address your feeling and your thoughts is exactly why you and your son are so well adjusted at this point in time, and why the both of you have a huge head start on having a great life together. You will not encounter the stresses that have you in a position of constantly trying to fix things for him. When a parent is in that position, because they refuse to feel the emotions that come with a childhood diagnosis, they are constantly running from this to that in an attempt to "fix" something for their child. They become extremely frustrated and angry, and strike out at anyone or anything that tells them they need to take care of their own issues before they can be of best benefit to their child.

Given the recent climate around here as of late, I have to say that I am truly thrilled to see a parent that is not afraid to be honest, and does not have that fear of being judged as a bad parent when she honestly admits to her own issues. You are a bright light in the recent darkness. And, because you have left yourself in an open place through your honesty, you are also ready to learn. Stick around, please. We need more like you.

 

[jillio]

I understand what you are saying... and I appreciate the fact that you are concerned about the deaf children's needs... but try to put yourself in the parent's shoes... I'm not sure how many of you are parents are not?

My entire life my husband & I (and extended family) have only been exposed to "hearing". And then Tyler was given to us and we're left to navigate and figure out what we're supposed to do with a deaf son. Obviously, our first instinct is to get him amplified with ha's and look into the possibility of ci's. We are hearing and hearing is all we know. Spoken english is our first language. And the thought of not being able to communicate with our son is heart breaking and unimaginable. So obviously we wanted him to develop oral skills.

As time has gone on... we're slowly coming around to ASL... and we're now teaching Tyler and learning ourselves. But... we still hope and pray for his oral skills to develop. I hate the idea of Tyler being exposed to so much predjuice and mockery in his life. As his mother, I want to protect him from as much as I can.

I appreciate the deaf community putting Tyler's needs first over mine... that's what I want! I put Tyler's needs over and above mine every single day. But try to understand where we are coming from... hearing parents with deaf children.

I want to be able to post here and ask questions and not be afraid of the politics or getting torn apart.

Trust me, we do understand where you and your husband are coming from. I am the parent of a deaf son, now an adult. I went through exactly what you are going through. I sought the advise and the nurturing of the Deaf community, and because I paid attention to what they told me, and applied it to my son, I have a healthy, happy, bi-lingual adult child that is comfortable with both hearing and deaf/Deaf, and is a successful graduate student at a major hearing university. It was not oral education that facilitated that. It was not an HA or a CI that facillitated that. It was the teaching that the Deaf provided for me in order that I might make decisions regarding my son that included the whole child, and not just his ears and his mouth.

And, please, do not take posts that are made to other hearing parents as applying to you personally. All hearing parents are not the same! **smile**

 

[jillio]

Ryancher: an example of comments.* I have mentioned many times I am Bilaterally deaf since December 20, 2006.* I am not hearing now.I have actually read about "so called cultural deafness" from a book in* the Toronto library-A journey into the DEAF-WORLD. Lane/Hoffmeister/Bahan. 1996. In Chapter 14 The Hearing Agenda 11 Eradicating the DEAF WORLD.page 379 to 407. Whether anyone here in alldeaf.com subscribes to the above?Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony* activated Aug/07

People in AllDeaf generally do not need to read about Deaf culture in order to learn it. They live inside the culture daily. And the culture is not "so-called". It is a sociological and linguistic fact.

But comments such as that are extremely patronizing to members of Deaf culture. Continue to make them, and you will continue to get a negative reaction. You see, the problem is not the deaf/Deaf members of this forum. The problem is the patronizing attitude that is taken, by a few select members, against them and their lifestyle choices.

 

[jillio]

Hi Jenny! You can disagree in that you may have grieved upon learning your child was deaf, and there is nothing at all wrong with that. But you really can't disagree and claim that you know my feelings better than I do I didn't grieve upon learning my child was deaf. Some have said they didn't. Some have said they did. Not everyone has the same expectations when it comes to children.

And for some, a characteristic of our child -- whether she has brown eyes or blue, is tall or short, has an aptitude for math or not, is deaf or hearing -- doesn't necessarily bring on feelings of grief or sorrow, especially if we didn't have an expectation of blue eyes, or math genius, or even hearing. I don't feel a sense of loss -- perhaps because my daughter was born deaf and I had nothing to do with that, but maybe a lack of grief would have been the case for me no matter what.

JennyB does not have any children. However, she is well learned and experienced in the common reaction to any form of disability that parents are known to have. It is a universal variable, and has been supported in all forms of literature and study. She has seen such in parents, and she has seen the denial of such as well. Actually, denial is a prelude to actually becoming self honest and working through the issue.