CI on 6 year old.

Drew's Dad said:
You should mention post #211 as well, where Beetarehoh's calls Cloggy's opinion worthless and suggests he shut up.
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Keep reading. I believe I have mentioned that post, and cloggy has already responded to my response.
 
jillio said:
Thank you for proving my point and offering a prime example of selective deafness and ethnocentric attitude.
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Which part(s) serve as the example of selective deafness and ethnocentric attitude?

Is is where he says CI does not destroy deaf culture?
 
neecy said:
If supporting somebody who is being singled out and attacked for no reason makes me ethnocentric then by all means, I'll say I am!!!

"selective deafness" elaborate if you will?
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Hearing what you want to hear, or in this case, reading what you want to read. For example, I did not say anyone said deaf people could not take care of themselves. I said that it was implied in the attitude that refuses to give validity to the Deaf's life experience.

And by the way, don't you mean you support all the parents of CI implanted children? You did not qualify that statement.
 
Drew's Dad said:
Which part(s) serve as the example of selective deafness and ethnocentric attitude?

Is is where he says CI does not destroy deaf culture?
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Again, keep reading. If you were not wo quick to respond to that which has not been addressed to you, perhaps you would not continue to make so many errors in interpretation.
 
jillio said:
Again, keep reading. If you were not wo quick to respond to that which has not been addressed to you, perhaps you would not continue to make so many errors in interpretation.
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^^Rude again^^

You're not in charge of regulating the speed at which posters on this board reply to messages.

Responding to posts between other people are what makes this a public forum.

The speed of my post had nothing to do with my interpretation, and it was simply a guess. My post was me asking you a question to get an answer, and rather I get a snobby, rude answer which is not all that surprising.

Finally your answer to neecy does not fully answer my question, as it only describes one of the terms you used, the definition of which I fully understand.
 
neecy said:
.................I can't help but wonder - is the fact Cloggy is singled out and rediculed, insulted, intimidated, and attacked because he has a CI-implanted daughter who appears to be HAPPY to be able to hear? Is this somehow a threat, or something that needs to be hidden away lest other people realize that children with CI's CAN be happy? Because the repeated attacks I'm witnessing here against Cloggy and other parents sure seem to give this impression.
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Watch out, you might be getting uncomfortably close to the truth here....

After all, when warning me about my daughter blaming me for giving her CI instead of leaving her deaf, isn't this in fact a manifestation of the fear of parents that DID NOT choose to implant, that their children will ask them "why did you not do that for me!!"
The argument "the child has to choose" is not valid, and the child that is 15 now, will point out to the parent that it is the decision of the parent... So it is right to ask an explanation.

I can imagine that the posts I put down here and on Lotte's blog, about a child that thrives with CI, and loves to hear, is threatening, because it does not fit in with all the assumptions of non-loving parents with messed-up children that hate their CI....
Better to cling to experiences of children where CI is not the answer... THAT fits in very nicely with the overall idea of CI will fail, ASL is the answer..

Are we still on topic ???
 
Drew's Dad said:
^^Rude again^^

You're not in charge of regulating the speed at which posters on this board reply to messages.

Responding to posts between other people are what makes this a public forum.

The speed of my post had nothing to do with my interpretation, and it was simply a guess. My post was me asking you a question to get an answer, and rather I get a snobby, rude answer which is not all that surprising.

Finally your answer to neecy does not fully answer my question, as it only describes one of the terms you used, the definition of which I fully understand.
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Ethnocentric: the belief and attitude that one's cultural way of life is superior to another; failure to view situations and circumstances from another's point of view and the belief that it is imperative to force your own viewpoint on those you consider to be culturally different; imperialism; Manifest Destiny.

Does that do it for you? If not, there are dictionaries available for those who choose to use them.
 
Cloggy said:
Watch out, you might be getting uncomfortably close to the truth here....

After all, when warning me about my daughter blaming me for giving her CI instead of leaving her deaf, isn't this in fact a manifestation of the fear of parents that DID NOT choose to implant, that their children will ask them "why did you not do that for me!!"
The argument "the child has to choose" is not valid, and the child that is 15 now, will point out to the parent that it is the decision of the parent... So it is right to ask an explanation.

I can imagine that the posts I put down here and on Lotte's blog, about a child that thrives with CI, and loves to hear, is threatening, because it does not fit in with all the assumptions of non-loving parents with messed-up children that hate their CI....
Better to cling to experiences of children where CI is not the answer... THAT fits in very nicely with the overall idea of CI will fail, ASL is the answer..

Are we still on topic ???
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Actually, the argument that the child should be able to choose is very valid, not just for the posters on this board, but for many in the D/d community who do not post on this board. Your posts about Lotte are not in the least threatening, because, if they are true, are certainly the exception to the rule, and not what is seen in the majority of deaf students and toddlers--with or without CI. And yes, ASL is the answer, because without access to a visual language, a deaf child will be forever language deprived. It is the only language to which a deaf child has unimpeded access at all times. The ATV therapy required following implantation almost guarantees language delays because of the sheer effort and amount of time spent in developing auditory and verbal skills in an artificial learning environment.

And it has been said before, and I will say it here again, Lotte is still very young. You have yet to embark on an educational career with her, and therefore, have no idea of what the future holds for her educationally. You cannot possibly predict the future with any certainty. The children that shel and I deal with have surpassed Lotte on that front, and therefore what we report is based on reality, not hopeful prediction or wishful thinking. So hang onto that hope cloggy, and I hope you will not need it in the future. History, however, says you will.

No one ever said that Lotte would blame you for giving her a CI--what was said was it was just as likely that a child would blame aparent for not implanting as for implanting. Again, you are twisting words to suit your own purpose. Just as you tell us that Lotte can now hear, and is perfectly fine in her adjustment and development, yet on her blog, and another post on thsi board, you fully admitted that she did indeed suffer language delay. That might seem minor to you at this point in time, but the true consequences of that will be seen when she arrives at school, and so much attention has to be given tothose language dlays that she is not receiving adequate education in ther subjects.

You speak too often of things you have no knowledge of, and are operating from your own limited viewpoint and experience. And then you wonder why people are rude to you.
 
jillio said:
Ethnocentric: the belief and attitude that one's cultural way of life is superior to another; failure to view situations and circumstances from another's point of view and the belief that it is imperative to force your own viewpoint on those you consider to be culturally different; imperialism; Manifest Destiny.

Does that do it for you? If not, there are dictionaries available for those who choose to use them.
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No, it doesn't do it for me. I didn't ask for definition of a term, I asked for an explanation of what part(s) of a post made it (in your eyes) a perfect example of those terms, and why those parts of the post made it a perfect example. I don't know why this is not clear to you.

If you don't want to answer my question, then don't. I'd much prefer that over your snide remarks.
 
jillio said:
Actually, the argument that the child should be able to choose is very valid
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Not from the perspective for obtaining insurance coverage for the implant, for several reasons:

1) Several insurers (United Healthcare being the largest) have overall corporate policies specifically excluding CIs for pre-lingually deafened adults. Once the child turns 18 and can legally make the decision on their own, if they are insured by one of these plans, they couldn't get the insurer to pay for an implant.

2) The federal government in the US mandates coverage for cochlear implants through Medicaid for children, but does not mandate the same coverage for CIs for adults. Many states specifically exclude CIs for adults on Medicaid, and I personally know of at least one family that packed up and moved to another state so the adult on Medicaid could get coverage for the CI she decided she wanted after she turned 18 when she had declined to get one that was offered to her when she was younger.

3) Once children become adults, they frequently are forced to drop off their parents health plans. If they are students and pick up their university's health plan, there is likely no coverage for CIs -- I have yet to see a University insurance plan include coverage for CIs, and I've looked at dozens of them. If they buy an individual plan, the insurer is allowed to discriminate against them -- so the insurer can say "we don't want to insure you at all, you're deaf" or "we'll insure you for everything but hearing impairment related illnesses" Once again, no coverage for CIs. If they get a group plan through a job, there is an 88 % chance that coverage for a CI is included, but if there was more than a 63 day gap between when their previous policy ended and when the group plan begins, once again, a pre-existing condition exclusion can kick in -- the exclusion is temporary, but it can cause an up to 18 month delay in getting coverage for the CI.

I'm not saying that coverage should be the only concern, but it is very frequently a factor given that most people can't just whip out their checkbook and write a $60,000 check for the surgery if they can't get insurance to cover it. Bottom line is if insurers can legally avoid writing a large check (for anything, and CIs really aren't an exception in this matter) they will.

Sheri
 
neecy said:
And yet - you are putting Cloggy down because he is a loving, caring parent wanting only the best for his Daughter, who appears (from what he has told us, and what he and I have spoken about) very well adjusted, happy and healthy!

Rick said it best - Cloggy - keep doing what you are doing, because you are obviously doing something RIGHT!!! I applaud you, and hope you will continue to share your experiences as the parent of a deaf child AND the parent of a child who CAN hear with a CI. She has the best of both worlds right now - perhaps THAT is what some people find so frightening.
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Pls show me where I have called Cloggy names or criticized him for how he raised his daughter.

The only time if I put him down was what he said about sign language and not needing it cuz I was confused what he meant by that. As soon I understood his reasons for being here, I haven't put him down. If anyone puts down sign language or the deaf community in general, I will respond strongly. I think I asked Rick nicely...if u al took it as an insult then that your your or other's decision to interpret what I said to Rick.

I simply asked Rick not to put down the whole Deaf comunity based on some people's comments. Just like I won't put down the hearing community based on some hearing views. If Rick wants to put people down, then put the person he is quoting down not the whole Deaf community.

Maybe u missed it but in other threads or even this one ( iam using my pager so I have a limited view) I have implied that Cloggy's daughter will probably be more likely to grow up a successful and happy person cuz of the family's support. I don't don't like some of his views that's all and if I put them down with insults then my apologies as I already apologized in another thread for being a bad girl with all the bashings. So pls do not keep bringing my old posts up everytime I disagree with someone's POV.

Thank u
 
I wasn't speaking to you specifically, Shel, but those who keep insisting that Cloggy should be forced to leave the board (or be banned) simply because he's hearing, and "has no deaf experience", and those who regularly criticize the way he and his wife are raising their daughter (and not just him - there have been other parents of implanted children who have left this board because of similar attacks.)
 
beetarehoh said:
And I am not to reject the CI users because they are the ones that actually experience hearing the hearing people. With all due respect, shut up and sit in the back seat let the CI users, HA users and deaf friendlies drive!
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Oh cool, that means Jillio should shut up and let us deafies drive to? Oh you only mean those deaf families who don't agree with everything you say?

FYI Cloggy with his deaf daughter would actually fall under the deaf families part of your post, just as Jillio does.

Now I really do have to stay away from the boards since the logic that determines what is valid research and what is not seems to be determined on where that research comes from, ex. deaf colleges or hearing ones, on who funds it, evidently CI companies can't do research, or other mundane issues.

The purpose of this forum on HA & CI's is to discuss pros and cons. Hopefully the discussions parents concidering implantation to look into some of the issues discussed. At the moment there really doesn't seem to be much sharing of ideas but more you're NOT DEAF so shut up. So maybe the deaf parents who chose ASL only should shut up to?

Have a great day!!
 
Cloggy-I totally repect your wishes. I can see that you are doing the best Lotte, some people here even said you are very good person.

The reason I was frustrated is not willing to open mind. Earlier comments is very limited view, because I already know what is going to happen for your daughter: How much hearing she can HEAR. But the barriers will always be around like one example that popped up was: Language delay, as you mentioned earlier, that happens a lot with deaf people. Of course your daughter can hear this and that but what does it hold in the future for her?

I apologize for telling you to "shut up" but I said with all due respect. I can not come up with better words because I have language delay(if I think it will take me DAYS or MONTHS before I can think of better words and itll be too late). But I can not let anyone superior my beliefs. Little off subject: If I had the chance I want to go back to college and learn English.

What jillio has been said are valuable resources, and parents should learn from her. Her resources are the KEY to success for CI, HA and deaf people.

I wish there was some way that all of the deaf and hearing people can unite and learn from each other without bashing but it seems too hard because we are sometimes narrow mind.

Cloggy you are entitled to your opinion at anytime. And I will try not to bash unintentionally because yes your words are valuable too.:cool:
 
Drew's Dad said:
No, it doesn't do it for me. I didn't ask for definition of a term, I asked for an explanation of what part(s) of a post made it (in your eyes) a perfect example of those terms, and why those parts of the post made it a perfect example. I don't know why this is not clear to you.

If you don't want to answer my question, then don't. I'd much prefer that over your snide remarks.
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Paragraph 3 of the post to which I was responding.
 
neecy said:
I wasn't speaking to you specifically, Shel, but those who keep insisting that Cloggy should be forced to leave the board (or be banned) simply because he's hearing, and "has no deaf experience", and those who regularly criticize the way he and his wife are raising their daughter (and not just him - there have been other parents of implanted children who have left this board because of similar attacks.)
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Oh ok. It seemed like u were speaking specifically to me.

As for the others that say all those things to Cloggy, I cant speak for them. I can only speak for myself and my actions. Yes, I get carried away when I am frustrated but I try my hardest not to use mean words. Like I said in another thread, I am not perfect and nobody is. We all say not so nice things to each other from time to time but important that we can find a way to better communicate our views from then on. It may take a while.
 
LTHFAdvocate said:
Not from the perspective for obtaining insurance coverage for the implant, for several reasons:

1) Several insurers (United Healthcare being the largest) have overall corporate policies specifically excluding CIs for pre-lingually deafened adults. Once the child turns 18 and can legally make the decision on their own, if they are insured by one of these plans, they couldn't get the insurer to pay for an implant.

2) The federal government in the US mandates coverage for cochlear implants through Medicaid for children, but does not mandate the same coverage for CIs for adults. Many states specifically exclude CIs for adults on Medicaid, and I personally know of at least one family that packed up and moved to another state so the adult on Medicaid could get coverage for the CI she decided she wanted after she turned 18 when she had declined to get one that was offered to her when she was younger.

3) Once children become adults, they frequently are forced to drop off their parents health plans. If they are students and pick up their university's health plan, there is likely no coverage for CIs -- I have yet to see a University insurance plan include coverage for CIs, and I've looked at dozens of them. If they buy an individual plan, the insurer is allowed to discriminate against them -- so the insurer can say "we don't want to insure you at all, you're deaf" or "we'll insure you for everything but hearing impairment related illnesses" Once again, no coverage for CIs. If they get a group plan through a job, there is an 88 % chance that coverage for a CI is included, but if there was more than a 63 day gap between when their previous policy ended and when the group plan begins, once again, a pre-existing condition exclusion can kick in -- the exclusion is temporary, but it can cause an up to 18 month delay in getting coverage for the CI.

I'm not saying that coverage should be the only concern, but it is very frequently a factor given that most people can't just whip out their checkbook and write a $60,000 check for the surgery if they can't get insurance to cover it. Bottom line is if insurers can legally avoid writing a large check (for anything, and CIs really aren't an exception in this matter) they will.

Sheri
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We aren't discussing insurance. We are discussing ethics.
 
jag said:
Oh cool, that means Jillio should shut up and let us deafies drive to? Oh you only mean those deaf families who don't agree with everything you say?

FYI Cloggy with his deaf daughter would actually fall under the deaf families part of your post, just as Jillio does.

Now I really do have to stay away from the boards since the logic that determines what is valid research and what is not seems to be determined on where that research comes from, ex. deaf colleges or hearing ones, on who funds it, evidently CI companies can't do research, or other mundane issues.

The purpose of this forum on HA & CI's is to discuss pros and cons. Hopefully the discussions parents concidering implantation to look into some of the issues discussed. At the moment there really doesn't seem to be much sharing of ideas but more you're NOT DEAF so shut up. So maybe the deaf parents who chose ASL only should shut up to?

Have a great day!!
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I believe we deaf parents who have chosen ASL and made Deaf culture a part of our lives, and those of us who work with the Deaf on a daily basis would be classified as the deaf friendlies refered to in the post.

And those are exactly the criteria on which research is founded. Where it comes from and the methodology used determines validity. Anyone who does research knows that academic research holds less bias than any other form. It is quatitative by and large. The research done by CI companies can be valid, depending upon the design, the methodology, the sample, and the control and experimental groups. When they do not adhere to the strict standards of good research then it has flaws. Any research paper includes a section that outlines variables that could have accounted forthe results found that were not studied, as well as variables that were not controlled for that could have influenced results. If you have a problem with that, then contact the IRB. They are the ones that set the standards.

And, if you have aproblem with me, personally, you are welcome to pm me. And cloggy's family and mine bear no comparison.
 
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