Can children distinguish early on...

[Audiofuzzy]

All of a sudden I had a flashback.
I couldn't be more than 5 - 7 years old. I was either pre-elementary or in the first grade.
Mind you, back then in my old home place we started school at 7 y.o.

I saw in my mind my little girl friend Hallie and me playing in our 'hood
and her asking me sincerely and with great interest but also with great acceptance:
"Fuzzy you are deaf, right?, you can't hear?"
and me answering with as great seriousness and a sense of importance
yes, I can't, yes I am deaf".

I realize now, how back then even though I could tell I was different than other children in the way that I couldn't hear as they could
and thus was "special" this way,
which miraculously they found interesting and irresistible instead of repulsive and stupid,
I was unable to fully comprehend the enormity of what "deaf" really mean.

I do remember very well, though, having a strong sense of being different
and definitely not being a "hearie" even then, although I did felt accepted
by a hearing community.


Maybe that will help a bit to settle whether or not a little child can feel
to be Deaf or not, I hope.

I am thinking now at some level they do recognize clearly they are not
the same as hearing children, absolutely, yes.
But to comprehend a whole culture at such a tender age - I dunno, I wouldn't be too sure.

Fuzzy

 

[Beach girl]

It takes adults a long time to comprehend their own culture. Here I'm not talking just about deaf or hearing, but Western culture generally, American culture, Southern culture, New England culture, religious culture, be it Christian, Jewish, Baha'i, Buddhist, what have you, or other aspects that contribute to an individual's inherited culture.

Certainly as a five year old I identified myself as Christian, as an American of Italian, English and Dutch heritage, as a Michigander, as a white girl. Did I understand all the cultural implications? No, of course not. But could I have put a brief description to all those things? Definitely.

I think a five year old can have a pretty good sense of identity, and a reasonably accurate interpretation of similarities and differences between him/herself and other playmates of different backgrounds.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

However, it occurred to me since we are talking about 5 years old kids, maybe we should skip thinking in adult terms and drop down to little kiddies level, rather.

Because if I can have a vivid memory of having a strong sense of being deaf at such a young age,
maybe it is possible that a 5 year old child does may have a sense of belonging to a certain group, after all,
even if the full implications of what it mean to be Deaf and the Deaf culture mean is beyond her full understanding.


Fuzzy

 

[sallylou]

Wirelessly posted (droid)

The very first part of the process is when an infant realizes that she is a seperate person from her mother. At each developmental stage a child learns who she is in relation to other people. That continues until you're a middle-aged person trying to figure out what it all "means." Trying to integrate all of your experiences into a set of values. Seeing other people at various stages along the same journey. Perhaps choosing to help others along the way in a chrone role. Perhaps creating something that will inspire others. And figuring out what it means to be human, which hasn't changed for thousands of year.

 

[deafskeptic]

All of a sudden I had a flashback.
I couldn't be more than 5 - 7 years old. I was either pre-elementary or in the first grade.
Mind you, back then in my old home place we started school at 7 y.o.

I saw in my mind my little girl friend Hallie and me playing in our 'hood
and her asking me sincerely and with great interest but also with great acceptance:
"Fuzzy you are deaf, right?, you can't hear?"
and me answering with as great seriousness and a sense of importance
yes, I can't, yes I am deaf".

I realize now, how back then even though I could tell I was different than other children in the way that I couldn't hear as they could
and thus was "special" this way,
which miraculously they found interesting and irresistible instead of repulsive and stupid,
I was unable to fully comprehend the enormity of what "deaf" really mean.

I do remember very well, though, having a strong sense of being different
and definitely not being a "hearie" even then, although I did felt accepted
by a hearing community.


Maybe that will help a bit to settle whether or not a little child can feel
to be Deaf or not, I hope.

I am thinking now at some level they do recognize clearly they are not
the same as hearing children, absolutely, yes.
But to comprehend a whole culture at such a tender age - I dunno, I wouldn't be too sure.

Fuzzy

I don't recall becoming aware of that till I was 7. For me, the oral class was just a small class of kids who wore HAs just like me. Everyone else didn't wear those things.

 

[deafskeptic]

It takes adults a long time to comprehend their own culture. Here I'm not talking just about deaf or hearing, but Western culture generally, American culture, Southern culture, New England culture, religious culture, be it Christian, Jewish, Baha'i, Buddhist, what have you, or other aspects that contribute to an individual's inherited culture.

Certainly as a five year old I identified myself as Christian, as an American of Italian, English and Dutch heritage, as a Michigander, as a white girl. Did I understand all the cultural implications? No, of course not. But could I have put a brief description to all those things? Definitely.

I think a five year old can have a pretty good sense of identity, and a reasonably accurate interpretation of similarities and differences between him/herself and other playmates of different backgrounds.

Provided that there is a good commincation between the family and the deaf child.
Hearing children don't have this problem. I think my neice Amanda already had a pretty good idea of all this stuff when she was 3 but then I'm a biased aunt.

Due to problems with communcation with my own family, I didn't find out til I was six and in the first grade that my dad was a doctor. That's because my first grade teacher had us do a show and tell about the jobs our dads did.

I didn't know what kind of job that my brother had because my parents got upset I couldn't understand what they were saying to me till he got married. And I found this out from the newspaper - not the family.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

I don't recall becoming aware of that till I was 7.

yeah, early childhood memories is also a personal matter,
some people are able remember things are far back as being 3 years old,
some can not recall anything past 7 and later.

Provided that there is a good commincation between the family and the deaf child.
Hearing children don't have this problem. I think my neice Amanda already had a pretty good idea of all this stuff when she was 3 but then I'm a biased aunt.

No, that's just it - I was growing up in completely hearing environment which encouraged the oral and hearing style, period.
I was always told that even if I am HoH I am no different than anybody else because I could use my intelligence instead of my hearing.
When I was being introduced into company that didn't know me
I was being introduced as "Fuzzy can't hear well but she is extremely bright and she can talk normally, just please face her when you speak to her
and touch her first if you want to talk to her. no need to shout to her. she is as normal as you or I "

And my hearing went very slowly, so even if I was hearing impaired, I still could hear some so it wasn't like I was totally deaf, and I could speak although I was strongly lisping.

yet for the children I was "deaf", and for myself I just KNEW I wasn't the same as everybody else I FELT deaf, despite of my upbringing.
I got my first HA when I was 12.

I just knew I am deaf because clearly i couldn't hear well, period.

It's like Phillip Zazove in his book says on his own in to his father:
"no dad I am NOT the same as you! I have to see your mouth when you speak or I won't know what you say!" (it's not the exact quote)

- he, too recognized on his own quite early he is different even if his parents insisted there is nothing wrong with him.

So, I am beginning to think it is in fact possible for a very young child to identify with a certain culture even if the child is not aware of the implications of what this culture really means/is.

And thus, I believe now that Miss GrendelQ child, does in fact may be instinctively aware she is deaf and instinctively pull toward deaf culture, with or without any encouragement from outside, although it does help to have one.

Fuzzy

 

[Audiofuzzy]

I didn't know what kind of job that my brother had because my parents got upset I couldn't understand what they were saying to me till he got married. And I found this out from the newspaper - not the family.

oh no, whaaaaaaattt!!!!!!?????

don't you know I am most curious, nosey, impatient, gosssipppy,
can't-sleep-until -I-know-what person!!
now I am going berserk !!!!



what did your bother do????




Fuzzy

 

[KristinaB]

I was not aware until I was 7 that I had a hearing loss. Only reason I found out then was due to a massive ear infection and all the testing. Seems I was born with it and my father always wondered. Never talked until I was 3. Even with my HA I never felt different from the others until I was 9 or 10. The kids in Atlanta, GA were much crueler than those in my small town in Central, FL. After that, I was always feeling different. That being said, it was not until I was at least 10 that I knew I was different from other kids.

 

[jillio]

All of a sudden I had a flashback.
I couldn't be more than 5 - 7 years old. I was either pre-elementary or in the first grade.
Mind you, back then in my old home place we started school at 7 y.o.

I saw in my mind my little girl friend Hallie and me playing in our 'hood
and her asking me sincerely and with great interest but also with great acceptance:
"Fuzzy you are deaf, right?, you can't hear?"
and me answering with as great seriousness and a sense of importance
yes, I can't, yes I am deaf".

I realize now, how back then even though I could tell I was different than other children in the way that I couldn't hear as they could
and thus was "special" this way,
which miraculously they found interesting and irresistible instead of repulsive and stupid,
I was unable to fully comprehend the enormity of what "deaf" really mean.

I do remember very well, though, having a strong sense of being different
and definitely not being a "hearie" even then, although I did felt accepted
by a hearing community.


Maybe that will help a bit to settle whether or not a little child can feel
to be Deaf or not, I hope.

I am thinking now at some level they do recognize clearly they are not
the same as hearing children, absolutely, yes.
But to comprehend a whole culture at such a tender age - I dunno, I wouldn't be too sure.

Fuzzy

Thank you, Fuzzy. That is definately a clarifying post. And you are correct. They recognize deafness, usually based on ability to hear, or even earlier, which language is used. At a very young age, they will also consider their parents to be deaf, even though they are hearing. Kids naturally assume that they are the same as their parents. And the reversal, too, which is why parents have to go through an adjustment period after their child is diagnosed.

This is exactly what I was stating. A 5 year old can know they are deaf, at an age and developmentally appropriate stage. They cannot, however, identify, by choice, as Deaf.

 

[jillio]

It takes adults a long time to comprehend their own culture. Here I'm not talking just about deaf or hearing, but Western culture generally, American culture, Southern culture, New England culture, religious culture, be it Christian, Jewish, Baha'i, Buddhist, what have you, or other aspects that contribute to an individual's inherited culture.

Certainly as a five year old I identified myself as Christian, as an American of Italian, English and Dutch heritage, as a Michigander, as a white girl. Did I understand all the cultural implications? No, of course not. But could I have put a brief description to all those things? Definitely.

I think a five year old can have a pretty good sense of identity, and a reasonably accurate interpretation of similarities and differences between him/herself and other playmates of different backgrounds.

A 5 year old has not even begun to explore identity yet. They simply are not developmentally capable. Just being able to define, in a limited way, "Christian" or "White" is not identity development. A child is simply repeating what they have been told about themselves. It is not the process of discovery and choice that is tied to identity.

 

[shel90]

I knew that there were differences between black people and white people at a young age. My understanding was limited to the physical appearances, not the cultural aspects. Same thing with my deafness but then again, I wasnt exposed to Deaf culture or ASL at that time, so it is probably a moot point in my case.

 

[jillio]

yeah, early childhood memories is also a personal matter,
some people are able remember things are far back as being 3 years old,
some can not recall anything past 7 and later.



No, that's just it - I was growing up in completely hearing environment which encouraged the oral and hearing style, period.
I was always told that even if I am HoH I am no different than anybody else because I could use my intelligence instead of my hearing.
When I was being introduced into company that didn't know me
I was being introduced as "Fuzzy can't hear well but she is extremely bright and she can talk normally, just please face her when you speak to her
and touch her first if you want to talk to her. no need to shout to her. she is as normal as you or I "

And my hearing went very slowly, so even if I was hearing impaired, I still could hear some so it wasn't like I was totally deaf, and I could speak although I was strongly lisping.

yet for the children I was "deaf", and for myself I just KNEW I wasn't the same as everybody else I FELT deaf, despite of my upbringing.
I got my first HA when I was 12.

I just knew I am deaf because clearly i couldn't hear well, period.

It's like Phillip Zazove in his book says on his own in to his father:
"no dad I am NOT the same as you! I have to see your mouth when you speak or I won't know what you say!" (it's not the exact quote)

- he, too recognized on his own quite early he is different even if his parents insisted there is nothing wrong with him.

So, I am beginning to think it is in fact possible for a very young child to identify with a certain culture even if the child is not aware of the implications of what this culture really means/is.

And thus, I believe now that Miss GrendelQ child, does in fact may be instinctively aware she is deaf and instinctively pull toward deaf culture, with or without any encouragement from outside, although it does help to have one.

Fuzzy

But that is just it. Knowing one is "different" or knowing that one can't hear well, and the name for that is "deaf" does not mean that the child has identified as Deaf.

Children are not insinctively aware of their deafness. They have to be given a name for their experience of not receiving sound. In fact, they generalize the other way. They assume, even after having been given a name for their deafness, that family members and close friends are "deaf" as well. Until they get older, and the ability to comprehend specific concepts develops, they cannot even grasp the concept of someone else hearing sound. A child that was born deaf has no idea what is meant by, "You can't hear and I can."

Deafness is not concrete and something a child can see and identify specific differences, as in the differences in skin color. Not hearing sound is a complex concept, especially when a child has no comparison base of hearing sound. A 5 year old, and even most 10 year olds, cannot think on that high of a leve. The brain has not developed to the degree to permit it, and they have not developed and acquired the life experience necessary for them to do so.

It is a nice little story, and probably offers a hearing parent some degree of assurance that they are doing the right thing to believe that a 5 year is already identifying as Deaf. But it is not reality.

 

[jillio]

I knew that there were differences between black people and white people at a young age. My understanding was limited to the physical appearances, not the cultural aspects. Same thing with my deafness but then again, I wasnt exposed to Deaf culture or ASL at that time, so it is probably a moot point in my case.

No, you would not have been able to understand the cultural specifics of Deaf at that age, either. If a child cannot grasp it for one culture, there is nothing to use for transfer of knowledge to another culture.

Right. Young kids define differences as something very concrete which can be seen and compared to what they see of themselves...i.e. skin color, eye color, hair color, a child in a wheel chair, or a child that wears a CI or a hearing aid. But they cannot take the defining characteristics of the difference beyond what they can see, or beyond a concrete explanation.

Even when we explain difficult concepts to a child, we use language that is concrete, not too detailed, and age appropriate so that they will be able to understand. Anything above that level of explanation they just shut you out because they cannot comprehend on that level.

 

[shel90]

No, you would not have been able to understand the cultural specifics of Deaf at that age, either. If a child cannot grasp it for one culture, there is nothing to use for transfer of knowledge to another culture.

My brother started understanding Deaf culture when he was around 9 or 10 years old when he realized that I was deaf too and didnt know ASL. He remembers asking himself, "Why doesnt my sister know ASL if she is deaf?"

 

[CSign]

But that is just it. Knowing one is "different" or knowing that one can't hear well, and the name for that is "deaf" does not mean that the child has identified as Deaf.

Children are not insinctively aware of their deafness. They have to be given a name for their experience of not receiving sound. In fact, they generalize the other way. They assume, even after having been given a name for their deafness, that family members and close friends are "deaf" as well. Until they get older, and the ability to comprehend specific concepts develops, they cannot even grasp the concept of someone else hearing sound. A child that was born deaf has no idea what is meant by, "You can't hear and I can."

Deafness is not concrete and something a child can see and identify specific differences, as in the differences in skin color. Not hearing sound is a complex concept, especially when a child has no comparison base of hearing sound. A 5
year old, and even most 10 year olds, cannot think on that high of a leve. The
brain has not developed to the degree to permit it, and they have not developed and acquired the life experience necessary for them to do so.
It is a nice little story, and probably offers a hearing parent some degree of
assurance that they are doing the right thing to believe that a 5 year is
already identifying as Deaf. But it is not reality.

I could have sworn the theme of the week was not discounting the d/Deaf individuals experience.

Why are you discounting this individuals experience?

 

[jillio]

My brother started understanding Deaf culture when he was around 9 or 10 years old when he realized that I was deaf too and didnt know ASL. He remembers asking himself, "Why doesnt my sister know ASL if she is deaf?"

Right. He had the experience of being around Deaf signers, you did not. For you, deafness was not hearing. For him, it also included a different language. He was beginning to identify various facets that make up cultural Deafness, but it was still fairly simple because of his age. He knew that the Deaf used a different language, but had no idea how the use of a different language makes for different perpsectives.

And so, as I stated when this came up in another topic, a Deaf of Deaf child will associate, at a younger age, more things that are tied to deafness, because that has been their experience from birth.

 

[shel90]

I could have sworn the theme of the week was not discounting the d/Deaf individuals experience.

Why are you discounting this individuals experience?

This is about children's ability to understand what culture means and identifying with that culture at 5 years old. Jillio is saying that yes, one can identify as being deaf (the medical model) like Fuzzy did but not Deaf (the cultural model) at 5 years old.

So, no Jillio didnt discount Fuzzy's experience but disagrees with Fuzzy's opinion that a child can choose a cultural identity to associate with at 5 years old.

 

[jillio]

I could have sworn the theme of the week was not discounting the d/Deaf individuals experience.

Why are you discounting this individuals experience?

You are such a jerk. Don't you have anything better to do that try to start arguments? Go play with your kid. Go read a book and learn something for a change.

I am not discounting anyone's experience. I am explaining child development and what is, and is not, possible at specific ages.:roll:

 

[jillio]

This is about children's ability to understand what culture means and identifying with that culture at 5 years old. Jillio is saying that yes, one can identify as being deaf (the medical model) like Fuzzy did but not Deaf (the cultural model) at 5 years old.

Of course that is what I am saying. Only someone looking to start an argument with me would think anything else.:roll: