Bakers refuse to makes wedding cakes for same sex couples

[Steinhauer]

No, that's not what I was talking.

I welcome customers, regardless on belief, to shopping or request the service that is based on availability. If they ask Jewish deli to make 20 chicken sandwich that is available, according to menu and if they don't serve ham so it is not discrimination.

If customers want me to make anti-gay cake so I will likely to reject the request, that's not discrimination. If they request Mickey Mouse cake for their child's birthday, I will happily to grant the request.

You seems have trouble to understand about what I am saying. The anti-discrimination law that protect sex orientation that usually cover the public accommodation, employee, housing, public school, prison, etc. It doesn't cover on products like wedding, ham, chicken, egg, etc. The sex orientation cover gay, lesbian, straight and bisexual.

The owner of the bakery had their religious rights trampled on.

That was the point I was making about the Indian cuisine refusing to serve beef cattle, and the Jewish deli refusing to serve bacon.

A Christian believes that a marriage is between one man and one woman. So do about 99.9% of the rest of the world's religions.

 

[Jiro]

The owner of the bakery had their religious rights trampled on.

That was the point I was making about the Indian cuisine refusing to serve beef cattle, and the Jewish deli refusing to serve bacon.

A Christian believes that a marriage is between one man and one woman. So do about 99.9% of the rest of the world's religions.

um.... you have made exactly no point at all.

if it ain't in the menu, then it ain't served. why bother going there in the first place? an extremely flawed argument.

 

[Phoenix23]

Marriage is something that is a civil right though, it is not owned by Christianity. Otherwise, tons of other religious and non religious people wouldn't be able to get married. This is what most Christians fail to see about gay Marriage... Marriage may be defined in Christianity as "one man one woman" but Christianity does not own Marriage. Again, tons of non Christians, and other religions that get married. I doubt Christianity would allow Satanists to get married if they could control or define marriage... but they do not. Nothing toasts my buns more than Christianity trying to define marriage as their own. If anyone wants to throw it was made by Christianity or Christianity was here first, you might want to research religions and Paganism / Wicca. It's much much older, and historically predates Christianity... Artifacts found, proof uncovered. Christianity was not the first or original religion. I doubt Cavemen were here chillin out beating their wives with sticks worshiping Jesus... Just sayin...

 

[Steinhauer]

but... that wouldn't make any sense.

if a restaurant doesn't serve beef (which would means the beef's certainly not in the menu).... then why would you go there in the first place? it's like going to a vegetarian restaurant and demand that they serve meat.

a very flawed argument.

I agree, it is a flawed argument to demand that any religious entity, be it a private business, or a religious temple, church, etc. accommodate your demands if they are in direct conflict with the POV of the aforementioned entity.

A Canadian GLBT organization tried to make a felon out of an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi for refusing to bless a Gay Pride march.

 

[Steinhauer]

Marriage is something that is a civil right though, it is not owned by Christianity. Otherwise, tons of other religious and non religious people wouldn't be able to get married. This is what most Christians fail to see about gay Marriage... Marriage may be defined in Christianity as "one man one woman" but Christianity does not own Marriage. Again, tons of non Christians, and other religions that get married. I doubt Christianity would allow Satanists to get married if they could control or define marriage... but they do not. Nothing toasts my buns more than Christianity trying to define marriage as their own. If anyone wants to throw it was made by Christianity or Christianity was here first, you might want to research religions and Paganism / Wicca. It's much much older, and historically predates Christianity... Artifacts found, proof uncovered. Christianity was not the first or original religion. I doubt Cavemen were here chillin out beating their wives with sticks worshiping Jesus... Just sayin...

Actually, Judaism "owns" marriage. The oldest recorded marriage was an exchange between two families in about 3,000 BCE (or BC) and it was between a man and a woman. marriage has always had that definition ever since. traditional weddings reflect this as well, when the father gives away the bride to the groom - it is an exchange between two families for the purpose of life to continue ... having children (the child unites two separate families). It isn't just the "Christians" that view marriage as being between a man and a woman.

interesting ... even the Sumerians had laws regulating marriage (the best man, got the name because he could fight off the bride's relatives):

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2000/10/26/204128.htm?site=science/greatmomentsinscience

 

[TXgolfer]

and state department got involved that caused Oregon bakery to close their store.

The state got involved because the lesbian couple wanted to stir up trouble. They filed a complaint and purposely tried to violate the rights of others.

 

[TXgolfer]

I think it's still BS about being denied to make a cake because you're gay. Just the same if a black person and white person were to walk into a bakery and ask for a cake because they were getting married. If they denied them a cake, OH LAWDY we'd have every damn person all over that shiz in a SECOND! Just a point I'm trying to prove. I do believe a lot of gay couples can be a little cry baby about this kind of stuff, but I do believe it is wrong still... Just my personal opinion. Love is love, I'd bake anyone a cake! It would taste great! But probably wouldn't look to appealing... =/

If you read the article, it is not the same. The couple was not declined because they were gay. They were declined because their event was a gay event. Big difference.

 

[TXgolfer]

Reminds me of the blind person with the guide dog vs the Muslim taxi driver.

 

[Phoenix23]

Actually, Judaism "owns" marriage. The oldest recorded marriage was an exchange between two families in about 3,000 BCE (or BC) and it was between a man and a woman. marriage has always had that definition ever since. traditional weddings reflect this as well, when the father gives away the bride to the groom - it is an exchange between two families for the purpose of life to continue ... having children (the child unites two separate families). It isn't just the "Christians" that view marriage as being between a man and a woman.

interesting ... even the Sumerians had laws regulating marriage (the best man, got the name because he could fight off the bride's relatives):

Math of Marriage › Dr Karl's Great Moments In Science (ABC Science)

There has been findings that the Ancient Egyptians started "Marriage." It was not called this, but they had a party to celebrate the binding of the couple in a monogamous relationship, gifts were exchanged and hemet was the term in Egyptian language that meant "wife" or female partner. The Ancient Egyptians are the oldest dated back culture even before writing began and actual writing was able to be passed. They discovered sculptures and figurines showing their various gods and goddesses as they were Polo-theistic meaning they had more than one god and/or goddess. Also meaning, they were in fact Pagan. As the word of definition of Pagan means: non Christian.

 

[Jiro]

I agree, it is a flawed argument to demand that any religious entity, be it a private business, or a religious temple, church, etc. accommodate your demands if they are in direct conflict with the POV of the aforementioned entity.

A Canadian GLBT organization tried to make a felon out of an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi for refusing to bless a Gay Pride march.

lol what? that must have been a really seriously tainted meat you've ate...

 

[Steinhauer]

There has been findings that the Ancient Egyptians started "Marriage." It was not called this, but they had a party to celebrate the binding of the couple in a monogamous relationship, gifts were exchanged and hemet was the term in Egyptian language that meant "wife" or female partner. The Ancient Egyptians are the oldest dated back culture even before writing began and actual writing was able to be passed. They discovered sculptures and figurines showing their various gods and goddesses as they were Polo-theistic meaning they had more than one god and/or goddess. Also meaning, they were in fact Pagan. As the word of definition of Pagan means: non Christian.

I had always thought the Sumerians were the oldest civilization. There are some Anthropologists that claim there was an even older civilization than the Sumerians ... and, there is a contentious debate over the pyramids of Caral being older than Egypt.

It's been so long since I have studied all this ... the Epic of Gilgamesh pre-dates Egypt and is one of the oldest forms of literature known to man (Mesopotamian) and the Torah mentions all of these civilizations.


edit: here we go, archeological finding of a pre-Sumer civilization:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe

 

[Phoenix23]

Making a felon out of someone for refusing to do that is absolutely retarded. I don't think that in any way was he bound to do anything like that. I do support religious freedom. I'm personally just not religious. To each their own, I don't discriminate. However, I think the whole you can't get married thing is a load of bull crap. Again, everyone is free to make their own choices, and I'd never intrude on that... but everyone using the Christianity says "one man one woman marriage" crap, is BS. Plain and simple. Separation of Church and State is the best thing ever. It just is. Just because someone's religion says one man one woman, that just means YOU can't marry the same sex, I can marry the same sex all I want. That's like getting mad at someone for eating cake because you're on a diet.

 

[Steinhauer]

Making a felon out of someone for refusing to do that is absolutely retarded. I don't think that in any way was he bound to do anything like that. I do support religious freedom. I'm personally just not religious. To each their own, I don't discriminate. However, I think the whole you can't get married thing is a load of bull crap. Again, everyone is free to make their own choices, and I'd never intrude on that... but everyone using the Christianity says "one man one woman marriage" crap, is BS. Plain and simple. Separation of Church and State is the best thing ever. It just is. Just because someone's religion says one man one woman, that just means YOU can't marry the same sex, I can marry the same sex all I want. That's like getting mad at someone for eating cake because you're on a diet.

They actually didn't win the case. What ended up happening was this group tried to claim that the Rabbi's religious beliefs were a "hate crime" and that his religious speech was "hate speech". He had been a spiritual leader for a police department, and the group wanted him fired based on a separation clause (what was he doing preaching to government employees ?? was their argument).

He was dismissed from his job at the Police Department during the investigation into this 'hate crime" - but the Canadian courts ruled that he was not guilty of any hate crime, and he got his job back.

It was Rabbi Mendel Kaplan

 

[Phoenix23]

They actually didn't win the case. What ended up happening was this group tried to claim that the Rabbi's religious beliefs were a "hate crime" and that his religious speech was "hate speech". He had been a spiritual leader for a police department, and the group wanted him fired based on a separation clause (what was he doing preaching to government employees ?? was their argument).

He was dismissed from his job at the Police Department during the investigation into this 'hate crime" - but the Canadian courts ruled that he was not guilty of any hate crime, and he got his job back.

It was Rabbi Mendel Kaplan

Well that's good, because while I'm an avid gay rights supporter, I think stuff like that goes over the top. That's just retarded. That goes along the lines of people pulling out the race card when it was something completely different. I don't play that BS for one second... stupid.

 

[CrazyPaul]

GLBT, don't worry about those ****ing problems since your rights are getting stronger and stronger.

Here's a proof.

http://www.alldeaf.com/2226844-post1.html

Anti-gay marriage people (losers), pay attention! IRS allows married gay/lesbians to receive same benefits as married straight couples. Times change. Next, any business will be forbidden to not serve to them. You just watch. There will be more changes coming within 5 years. You who oppose gay marriage will :jaw: You can't win, ****ing losers.

 

[Steinhauer]

lol what? that must have been a really seriously tainted meat you've ate...

I was actually thinking about demanding that chik-fil-a be open on Sundays .. I mean, it's a day like any other, why discriminate against Sunday? Is Monday through Saturday somehow superior days (to them) and they refuse to serve people on Sunday because they think Sunday is somehow an inferior day?

Geez ...

 

[Steinhauer]

Well that's good, because while I'm an avid gay rights supporter, I think stuff like that goes over the top. That's just retarded. That goes along the lines of people pulling out the race card when it was something completely different. I don't play that BS for one second... stupid.

I think everyone should have equal rights, and that includes religious people having the right to practice their religion.

This subject is interesting as I have a gay friend who is an airline pilot. He also happens to be a very devout Catholic. So .. our discussions about the whole same sex marriage topic gets fairly interesting. He does not hold the same political view on same sex marriage that many gay rights activists hold - so I guess that makes him an oddity of sorts. He is a gay rights advocate, but he does not believe that a same sex marriage is a marriage.

Yes, his religious beliefs play a factor in this, but it only plays a fraction of the role in why he holds the POV he does. He asked me once if everyone believes that every single person should have the same exact rights as anyone else, why can't blind people get their drivers license? Of course, blind people have a biological hindrance to be safe drivers - he feels that being homosexual is a biological (rather than choice) condition - one in which a homosexual is born with. Straight couples, in a committed relationship, produce children, uniting two separate families. A homosexual couple cannot do this - therefore, it is a biological hindrance.

Just like I will never be a rock star (even though I have always dreamed of being one hell of a lead guitarist - I just can't hear).

 

[Jiro]

I was actually thinking about demanding that chik-fil-a be open on Sundays .. I mean, it's a day like any other, why discriminate against Sunday? Is Monday through Saturday somehow superior days (to them) and they refuse to serve people on Sunday because they think Sunday is somehow an inferior day?

Geez ...

demanding somebody to serve something that isn't even in the menu? oh dear oh dear..... and demanding a business to change its business hours?

definitely not the same as refusing to make wedding cake for gay couples.

I think it's probably best if you stop coming up with any more examples....

 

[CrazyPaul]

I think everyone should have equal rights, and that includes religious people having the right to practice their religion.

That's fine if they are religious but they can't do that at their own business such as a retail store. Their store was open to the public. They must leave their religious belief out of their retail business. Those losers moved the business to their home because...

 

[Steinhauer]

That's fine if they are religious but they can't do that at their own business such as a retail store. Their store was open to the public. They must leave their religious belief out of their retail business. Those losers moved the business to their home because...

Yes, and Indian cuisine restaurants are also open to the public - which includes beef eaters.

Same goes for Jewish delis - the public is full of bacon eaters.

The fact that these foods are not available in these establishments is a direct result of religious beliefs. Forcing a Jewish deli to put bacon in their menu, or an Indian restaurant to include beef, since they are open to the public, and should accommodate all people of all walks of life, is trampling on their rights to run their privately owned business.

A private business is not a government entity.