A woman's right?

[jillio]

You are twisting my words entirely out of context and you know it.

I'm against Euthanasia. The quote is only designed to apply to someone very near to death who is in a lot of pain. The pain releaf is to stop the pain. It is not to kill them. So I don't see it as going against my values.

Some pro lifers are against abortion but allow it under certain cercumstances such as rape or if the mothers life is in danger. They are still pro lifers.

Some pro lifers are for the death penilty. Although I am not for the death penalty myself I would still consider that person as Pro life if they are against abortion.

You are distorting the meaning of the term "pro-life." You cannot pick and choose which elements you agree with and which you don't, and still claim to subscribe to the philosophy. That is known as hypocritical.

 

[jillio]

Well I'm glad this hasn't been locked. I think it's been a pretty calm argument, actually.

(And Byrdie, I promise I'm not trying to split hairs, and I obviously can't make you, but I really think you should just Google images for "partial birth abortion", and see if it changes your mind at all. I did a huge project on abortion when I was in high school, and to me, there is nothing that I can say to justify those images. Just a thought.)

Perhaps you should get some help in dealing with the trauma you endured as a result of your project. And, please keep in mind, those images had the exact effect on you that the posters intended. They provided selective information to you in order to elicit an emotional response. You were manipulated, pure and simple.

 

[lsfoster]

Abortions after the first trimester can only be performed in the case of threat to the health of the woman or the fetus. Please do not confuse elective first trimester abortion with later term, medically necessary abortion. That completely clouds the issue.

Likewise, are you aware that in the case where a partial birth abortion would be indicated at a later term in order to protect the life of the woman, partial birth is actually a safer procedure than the one currently allowed by law?

It is actually still possible to get a partial birth abortion, although they might not do a D&X procedure, or might otherwise kill the fetus first. And according to this study which compiled data from the AGI study and state statistics, the reasons for having partial birth abortions were as follows:
rape 0.3 % (0.1-0.6 %)
incest 0.03 % (0.01-0.1 %)
physical life of mother 0.2 % (0.1-0.3 %)
physical health of mother 1.0 % (0.1-3 %)
fetal health 0.5 % (0.1-1.0 %)
mental health of mother depends on definition
"personal choice" 98% (78-99 %)

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

Your information regarding conception is a bit off. A woman can concieve 3 days prior to ovulation and up to 3 days post ovualtion, making it a 6 day span. And the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of women who are raped are definately of child bearing age.

But you're ignoring the tons of biological things that need to happen for conception to occur. Even if you say six days, and even if you assume that they are all the right age (which all of them aren't). You still have to take into account all the other things that could go wrong. Let's face it, people try to get pregnant all the time with no luck. I'm not saying that rape never results in pregnancy, I'm saying that mathematically, and scientifically, many rapes do not.

Perhaps you should get some help in dealing with the trauma you endured as a result of your project. And, please keep in mind, those images had the exact effect on you that the posters intended. They provided selective information to you in order to elicit an emotional response. You were manipulated, pure and simple.

I'm really not sure what trauma you're talking about. I learned a lot from that project. And I'm not sure what "selective" information you think there was. If you can find a positive image of a partial birth abortion, I would love to see it. There is no manipulation. That would imply that there was another clearer interpretation that was hidden or avoided, somehow. They're pictures of dead babies. You don't need to manipulate anyone for that to seem wrong. Unless you can provide evidence that this is "selective information" or that there is another way I should be interpreting those photos, you saying it isn't enough. (In fact, I think that trying to act like I was traumatized in any way is much more manipulative).

 

[jillio]

It is actually still possible to get a partial birth abortion, although they might not do a D&X procedure, or might otherwise kill the fetus first. And according to this study which compiled data from the AGI study and state statistics, the reasons for having partial birth abortions were as follows:
rape 0.3 % (0.1-0.6 %)
incest 0.03 % (0.01-0.1 %)
physical life of mother 0.2 % (0.1-0.3 %)
physical health of mother 1.0 % (0.1-3 %)
fetal health 0.5 % (0.1-1.0 %)
mental health of mother depends on definition
"personal choice" 98% (78-99 %)

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States



But you're ignoring the tons of biological things that need to happen for conception to occur. Even if you say six days, and even if you assume that they are all the right age (which all of them aren't). You still have to take into account all the other things that could go wrong. Let's face it, people try to get pregnant all the time with no luck. I'm not saying that rape never results in pregnancy, I'm saying that mathematically, and scientifically, many rapes do not.



I'm really not sure what trauma you're talking about. I learned a lot from that project. And I'm not sure what "selective" information you think there was. If you can find a positive image of a partial birth abortion, I would love to see it. There is no manipulation. That would imply that there was another clearer interpretation that was hidden or avoided, somehow. They're pictures of dead babies. You don't need to manipulate anyone for that to seem wrong. Unless you can provide evidence that this is "selective information" or that there is another way I should be interpreting those photos, you saying it isn't enough. (In fact, I think that trying to act like I was traumatized in any way is much more manipulative).

Partial birth abortion is a very specific procedure. You are confusing it with all late term abortion. Partial birth abortion is an outlawed procedure. Likewise, the statistics you have provided are suspect, as they cannot be compiled without review of medical records, and at best, would be based on self report of a population willing to respond. You really do need to inform yourself of the laws and restrictions regarding the abortion issue.

The fact that you don't know what selective information I am speaking of is indication that you have not bothered to gain valid, medical, scientific information regarding the topic and are relying on manipulative websites with an agenda to fulfill.

 

[lsfoster]

I apologize, I should have said late term, you're totally right. But, the statistics are not suspect at all. The link I provided states clearly at the top where the statistics are coming from. Just because you don't like the data doesn't mean you can immediately discount where it came from. They explain where they got the numbers, and how the reporting might be off, and incorporate that knowledge into their analysis.

First of all, you have absolutely no idea what I researched, read, saw, or learned. You also have no idea what sites I looked at. I have read arguments from both sides, and researched both perspectives. It was a year-long project, and required us to present both sides of whichever topic we chose.

In this case, I wasn't even talking about "information", but images. The fact is, if you can find a "pro-choice" website that presents images of late-term abortions, I would love to see it. The websites themselves are being manipulative. Why is it more manipulative to show someone the result of an action to sway them than to hide that same result to sway them the opposite direction? Just because you happen to agree with a certain side doesn't make it less manipulative. I stated very clearly how you could actually show that the pictures were "selective", or "manipulative", and you chose instead to repeat your opinion with no proof other than faulty assumptions. Unless you can show otherwise, you have to admit that pro-choice sites are equally manipulative, and that there is nothing "selective" about the images. If you actually go and google the term, you'll notice that many of the images that show up are simply diagrams of the procedure, which are all consistent, and have been backed up by many doctors who performed them.

 

[Byrdie714]

Which is worse to see: An individual getting his head chopped off or an abortion?

 

[lsfoster]

It would depend on the circumstances, Byrdie, but in general I would have to say I would rather see someone get his head chopped off. Why?

 

[Maria]

Which is worse to see: An individual getting his head chopped off or an abortion?

Well, I see the word " kill " in both - either his head chopped off or end his life from an abortion.

 

[Byrdie714]

It would depend on the circumstances, Byrdie, but in general I would have to say I would rather see someone get his head chopped off. Why?

It's VERY GRUESOME! Especially during war time.

 

[lsfoster]

I'm not sure I get the connection.

 

[Byrdie714]

I'm not sure I get the connection.

The connection is that there are worse things than abortions.

 

[Jolie77]

Which is worse to see: An individual getting his head chopped off or an abortion?

Actually, if you were to ask me; I'd say seeing an individual getting his head chopped off is a lot worse than seeing an abortion. Although, I can't really say much about the abortion because I haven't seen an actual abortion procedure. So, I can't really compare these two since I haven't experienced seeing all of it.

I remember a friend sent me a video of Nick Berg (The American soldier who was held hostage and got murdered). At that time, I didn't know what the video contained and I thought it was something else. When I watched his head being chopped off on the video; God, I had nightmares for weeks and was literally sick to my stomach. I couldn't get it out of my head. It was reeling on me. It took me a while to actually forget about the video.

So, If I were to put two and two together, I probably would say seeing a man's head being chopped off is far worse.

 

[shel90]

Actually, if you were to ask me; I'd say seeing an individual getting his head chopped off is a lot worse than seeing an abortion. Although, I can't really say much about the abortion because I haven't seen an actual abortion procedure. So, I can't really compare these two since I haven't experienced seeing all of it.

I remember a friend sent me a video of Nick Berg (The American soldier who was held hostage and got murdered). At that time, I didn't know what the video contained and I thought it was something else. When I watched his head being chopped off on the video; God, I had nightmares for weeks and was literally sick to my stomach. I couldn't get it out of my head. It was reeling on me. It took me a while to actually forget about the video.

So, If I were to put two and two together, I probably would say seeing a man's head being chopped off is far worse.

My ex hubby rented "Faces of Death" back when we were dating in the early 90s. I had no idea what it contained and he thought it would be a joke ...watched it for a while before I realized that they were real videos of people dying or dead. One video contained of a man getting his head chopped off and like u, I had nightmares for week. To make everything worse, there was a murder a mile away from my mom's house (I was living with my mom at the time) in which a woman jogger my age had her head cut off. I was literally sick for a long time from the nightmares. To see it live, I think I would experience post-traumatic stress.

 

[Jolie77]

My ex hubby rented "Faces of Death" back when we were dating in the early 90s. I had no idea what it contained and he thought it would be a joke ...watched it for a while before I realized that they were real videos of people dying or dead. One video contained of a man getting his head chopped off and like u, I had nightmares for week. To make everything worse, there was a murder a mile away from my mom's house (I was living with my mom at the time) in which a woman jogger my age had her head cut off. I was literally sick for a long time from the nightmares. To see it live, I think I would experience post-traumatic stress.

:Ohno:

I, too, think if I had seen it live - I would probably have went postal too. I wouldn't wish it on anybody or on my worst enemy.

Although, As for viewing abortion - I don't know what it exactly would feel like but basing it on my guess, I think it probably would be a little less gruesome because it is in a medical atmosphere where things are sterilized, the procedures are done in a safe manner and the contents are disposed of in a correct way whereas one's head being chopped off is probably a lot more gruesome. But then, Both scenarios do have the emotional latch to it. So, it's hard to say which scenario would be worse off.

 

[jillio]

Well, I see the word " kill " in both - either his head chopped off or end his life from an abortion.

Then you see something that isn't there. If someone has their gall baldder removed in a surgical suite by doctors, do you see the word "kill"? After all, the gall bladder is a living organ. Yet removal can save a life. Just as abortion can.

 

[jillio]

I apologize, I should have said late term, you're totally right. But, the statistics are not suspect at all. The link I provided states clearly at the top where the statistics are coming from. Just because you don't like the data doesn't mean you can immediately discount where it came from. They explain where they got the numbers, and how the reporting might be off, and incorporate that knowledge into their analysis.

I didn't discount the data, I said it was suspect. Thanks to your link, I am perfectly able to make that claim. The researchers themselves noted flaws.

First of all, you have absolutely no idea what I researched, read, saw, or learned. You also have no idea what sites I looked at. I have read arguments from both sides, and researched both perspectives. It was a year-long project, and required us to present both sides of whichever topic we chose.

If you had researched both perspectives, one could assume that you could be a bit more accurate in your discussion of partial birth abortion. Likewise, if you are watching emotional, inflamatory videos, it is obvious where your information is coming from.
In this case, I wasn't even talking about "information", but images. The fact is, if you can find a "pro-choice" website that presents images of late-term abortions, I would love to see it. The websites themselves are being manipulative. Why is it more manipulative to show someone the result of an action to sway them than to hide that same result to sway them the opposite direction? Just because you happen to agree with a certain side doesn't make it less manipulative. I stated very clearly how you could actually show that the pictures were "selective", or "manipulative", and you chose instead to repeat your opinion with no proof other than faulty assumptions. Unless you can show otherwise, you have to admit that pro-choice sites are equally manipulative, and that there is nothing "selective" about the images. If you actually go and google the term, you'll notice that many of the images that show up are simply diagrams of the procedure, which are all consistent, and have been backed up by many doctors who performed them.

It is manipulative because it is a blatant emotional attempt to engage others in the process of judgement and intolerance. The fact of the matter is, no matter how gross or disturbing you might find an image, you still, under no circumstances have the right to determine which medical procedures can and will be performed for whom. That is what these sites are attempting to do. In effect, they are attempting to practice medicine without a license by attempting to persuade others that they have some right to interfere in another's medical decisions. The only choice you, or anyone else, has, is to decide for themselves what their own medical choices will be. Be grateful that you have that right. You risk loosing in when you attempt to remove the rights of every one else.

 

[Hear Again]

My ex hubby rented "Faces of Death" back when we were dating in the early 90s. I had no idea what it contained and he thought it would be a joke ...watched it for a while before I realized that they were real videos of people dying or dead. One video contained of a man getting his head chopped off and like u, I had nightmares for week. To make everything worse, there was a murder a mile away from my mom's house (I was living with my mom at the time) in which a woman jogger my age had her head cut off. I was literally sick for a long time from the nightmares. To see it live, I think I would experience post-traumatic stress.

i would have experienced ptsd too.

 

[Maria]

Then you see something that isn't there. If someone has their gall baldder removed in a surgical suite by doctors, do you see the word "kill"? After all, the gall bladder is a living organ. Yet removal can save a life. Just as abortion can.

Huh ? We don't see the same thing.

 

[jillio]

Huh ? We don't see the same thing.

Exactly. You see the word "kill" where it doesn't appear.

 

[Maria]

Exactly. You see the word "kill" where it doesn't appear.

You don't understand my post --- obviously. You see different from what I see. I SEE " kill " in BOTH -- no difference. Abortion is takin' an unborn baby's life away. Choppin' someone's head off is takin' his/her life away, too. So, therefore there is NO life in both of them ( choppin' head off and abortion ).