A hate crime....

rolling7 said:
You can offer no proof of this statement so good use of "apparently".
Someone else could say: Apparently a majority of the women in prison were charged
for drugs. And would be just as right as you. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Click to expand...

Of course there is proof. It is in the numbers. Just because you can't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
TXgolfer said:
Completely different. Cocaine vs Crack is about sentences that address 2 different substances. Assault is a specific crime where any inequities could be addressed by a mandatory sentence. Nobody is saying assault and robbery should carry the same sentence.
Click to expand...

Two different substances? I think not. Crack and powder cocaine are both cocaine. The difference is in the SES and racial make up of the population that uses cocaine in its 2 different forms.
 
saywhatkid said:
If you applied this to drunk drivers, the bolded part, it reads almost the same. The only difference would be a DUI charge and a few other charges that would amount to aggravated assault in terms of punishment. Sad isn't it?
Click to expand...

That is why DUI that involves serious bodily injury or death has a different charge attached than a DUI that does not invovle seriously bodily injury or death.
 
jillio said:
Two different substances? I think not. Crack and powder cocaine are both cocaine. The difference is in the SES and racial make up of the population that uses cocaine in its 2 different forms.
Click to expand...

Jillio, ironically those laws were passed as a way of "socially engineering" behavior.

I lived in Philly at the time of the crack epidemic. Those laws were because of Democratic mayors laws and calls for help due to fear it was destroying the African American community.

Unintended consequence of trying to engineer behavior through legislation!
 
TXgolfer said:
That was not your original claim. If you have stats that back that up.... :cool2: If not you are still entitled to that opinion, I disagree and we can move on.
Click to expand...

What!? now I need stats to back up an opinion??? Yes, obviously you will disagree... shesh. :roll:
 
TXgolfer said:
Baseball is played with a ball.....it is a sport

Football is played with a ball....it is a sport

Are they the same (ask George Carlin :giggle: )

"hate crime laws" do nothing to insure equal justice racially or otherwise. Getting hit with a bat is getting hit with a bat and the criminals should serve equal (and long) sentences. "Hate crime laws" do nothing to make the sentences equal.
Click to expand...

Could you address the issues in post #347 regarding equality in justice?
 
TXgolfer said:
Completely different. Cocaine vs Crack is about sentences that address 2 different substances. Assault is a specific crime where any inequities could be addressed by a mandatory sentence. Nobody is saying assault and robbery should carry the same sentence.
Click to expand...

lol the legislators disagree. I wish life was that simple like black and white.

The Fair Sentencing Act corrects a long-time wrong in cocaine cases
House lawmakers embraced a measure to reduce the 100-to-1 sentencing disparities between crack and powder cocaine; the Senate approved the proposal in the spring. The president is expected to sign the bill on Tuesday.

For the past three decades, those arrested for crack offenses -- mostly young, African American men -- faced far harsher penalties than the white and Hispanic suspects most often caught with powder cocaine. A person found holding 500 grams of powder cocaine would face a five-year mandatory minimum; crack offenders would have to be in possession of a mere 5 grams to face the same obligatory sentence. Crack offenders faced a 10-year mandatory minimum for carrying 10 grams of the drug; the same penalty would not kick in for a powder-cocaine suspect unless caught with 1,000 grams.

The Fair Sentencing Act of 2010 reduced the disparity to 18 to 1. An offender would have to be convicted of peddling 28 grams or more of crack to be hit with a five-year mandatory sentence. A 10-year prison term would be handed down for 280 grams or more. (Penalties for powder offenses are unchanged.) The legislation also eliminates a mandatory minimum sentence for simple possession -- a significant advance in and of itself.

Some critics of the crack sentences have pushed for complete elimination of the disparities. But this ignores some data that crack has a slightly more powerful and immediate addictive effect and more quickly devastates the user physically than does powder cocaine. It also fails to acknowledge the higher levels of violent crime associated with crack. The 18:1 compromise fairly reflects this reality.
Click to expand...

http://judiciary.senate.gov/pdf/09-04-29BreuerTestimony.pdf
Mr. Chairman, Senator Graham, distinguished members of the Subcommittee —thank you for giving the Department of Justice the opportunity to appear before you today to share our views on the important issue of disparities in federal cocaine sentencing policy.

The Obama Administration firmly believes that our criminal and sentencing laws must be tough, predictable, fair, and not result in unwarranted racial and ethnic disparities. Criminal and sentencing laws must provide practical, effective tools for federal, state, and local law enforcement, prosecutors, and judges to hold criminals accountable and deter crime.
Click to expand...
Changing these perceptions will strengthen law enforcement through increased public trust and cooperation, coupled with the availability of legal tools that are both tough and fair. This Administration is committed to reviewing criminal justice issues to ensure that our law enforcement officers and prosecutors have the tools they need to combat crime and ensure public safety, while simultaneously working to root out any unwarranted and unintended disparities in the criminal justice process that may exist.
Click to expand...
Most in the law enforcement community now recognize the need to reevaluate current federal cocaine sentencing policy – and the disparities the policy creates. Chief Timoney, Administrator Hutchison, and many other enforcement leaders have repeatedly and clearly indicated that the current federal cocaine sentencing policy not only creates the perception of unfairness, but also has the potential to misdirect federal enforcement resources. They have stressed that the most effective anti-drug enforcement strategy will deploy federal resources to disrupt and dismantle major drug trafficking organizations and drug organizations that use violence to terrorize neighborhoods.
Click to expand...
Moreover, the Sentencing Commission has documented that the quantity-based cocaine sentencing scheme often punishes low-level crack offenders far more harshly than similarly situated powder cocaine offenders. Additionally, Sentencing Commission data confirms that in 2006, 82 percent of individuals convicted of federal crack cocaine offenses were African American, while just 9 percent were White. In the same year, federal powder cocaine offenders were 14 percent White, 27 percent African American, and 58 percent Hispanic. The impact of these laws has fueled the belief across the country that federal cocaine laws are unjust. We commend the Sentencing Commission for all of its work on this issue over the last 15 years. The Sentencing Commission reports are the definitive compilation of all of the data on federal cocaine sentencing policy. We cannot ignore their message.
Click to expand...
 
Daredevel7 said:
I understand the difference between motive and premeditation, but the victims are still upset about the difference in punishment. You said that hate crime was disrespectful to the victims due to the difference in punishment. See my point?

Obviously, some people believe that premeditation makes the crime "worse" hence the harsher punishment.

Same concept goes for hate crime. Some people believe that motive makes the crime "worse". Obviously, in this thread, some people believe that motive doesn't, whereas premeditation does.
Click to expand...

Yeah that is where we are at basically

I see your point, and it is a good one. But I still disagree. For what it's worth,assuming all other factors are the same, I believe assault should be punished the same whether it was premeditated or not.
 
DaveM said:
Jillio, ironically those laws were passed as a way of "socially engineering" behavior.

I lived in Philly at the time of the crack epidemic. Those laws were because of Democratic mayors laws and calls for help due to fear it was destroying the African American community.

Unintended consequence of trying to engineer behavior through legislation!
Click to expand...

Only recently. And no, those laws were not passed to "engineer behavior." They were passed as a form of social control with an inequitable distribution toward the poor and the black.

Only recently have those laws been overturned. An attempt at repairing the inequities. Hate crime laws are an attempt to repair historical inequities.
 
TXgolfer said:
Yeah that is where we are at basically

I see your point, and it is a good one. But I still disagree. For what it's worth,assuming all other factors are the same, I believe assault should be punished the same whether it was premeditated or not.
Click to expand...

Then, an accidental shooting should be sentenced using death penalty laws.
 
DaveM said:
Jillio, ironically those laws were passed as a way of "socially engineering" behavior.

I lived in Philly at the time of the crack epidemic. Those laws were because of Democratic mayors laws and calls for help due to fear it was destroying the African American community.

Unintended consequence of trying to engineer behavior through legislation!
Click to expand...

So all large cities needed Democratic mayors to provide the impetus for the laws that exist today, in regards to crack cocaine? Or is it just Philadelphia?
 
jillio said:
Two different substances? I think not. Crack and powder cocaine are both cocaine. The difference is in the SES and racial make up of the population that uses cocaine in its 2 different forms.
Click to expand...

yep. "One Drug. Two Forms."

http://judiciary.senate.gov/pdf/09-04-29BreuerTestimony.pdf
The Science of Cocaine: One Drug, Two Forms

Since the time Congress passed the crack cocaine penalties, much of the information on the different impact and effects of crack cocaine as compared to powder cocaine has come under scrutiny. We have since learned that powder cocaine and crack cocaine produce similar physiological and psychological effects once they reach the brain. Whether in its powder or crack form, both types of cocaine are addictive and both pose serious health risks.

According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), the key difference in cocaine’s effects depends on how it is administered – by snorting, inhaling, or injecting. The intensity and duration of cocaine’s effects – in any form – depend on the speed with which it is absorbed into the bloodstream and delivered to the brain. Smoking or injecting cocaine produces a quicker, stronger high than snorting it. For that reason, the user who is smoking or injecting the drug may need more of it sooner to stay high. Because powder cocaine is typically snorted, while crack is most often smoked, crack smokers can potentially become addicted faster than someone snorting powder cocaine. Notably, however, the NIDA has found that smoked cocaine is absorbed into the bloodstream as rapidly as injected cocaine, both of which have similar effects on the brain.
Click to expand...
 
TXgolfer said:
Nope.
Click to expand...

That is exactly where your logic leads. Premeditation and motive are not to be considered as a factor in determining the seriousness of the act.:dunno2: Appears you have talked yourself into a corner.
 
jillio said:
Only recently. And no, those laws were not passed to "engineer behavior." They were passed as a form of social control with an inequitable distribution toward the poor and the black.

Only recently have those laws been overturned. An attempt at repairing the inequities. Hate crime laws are an attempt to repair historical inequities.
Click to expand...

Jillio, there are Federal drug laws and State drug laws. In the cities that were suffering from the epidemic(like Philly) our legislators pushed for harsher sentences for crack dealers by hoping to deter them.

We all know what the unintended consequences of laws meaning to deter behavior are...

More minorities wound up in prison for what was meant to protect the communities in the first place. Even though it was essentially the same drug!
 
DaveM said:
Better example:

White person A(wealthier) beats up black person B(poorer). Wealthier person A affords expensive lawyer to get off lighter.
Click to expand...
right. there you go.

DaveM said:
Black person B (think OJ) murders white woman B and white man C. Millionaire OJ affords expensive legal team, free of all charges.

If we're being honest it's a wealth disparity issue. Unfortunately there is a very large income gap between African Americans and Whites.

And it's getting worse.
Click to expand...

OJ got off the hook because prosecutors and LAPD messed up and tampered with evidences. I'm glad that jury found him not guilty even though it was very clear that he murdered them because this case teaches a lesson to government and law enforcement agencies and reminds them that they are not above the law and that they cannot conveniently cut corner, fabricate, or improperly handle the case to prosecute the guilty - no matter how obvious it is.

Civil Lawsuit found him "guilty" of 2 murders but unfortunately - it doesn't come with criminal imprisonment but it's ok because punishing him with millions of dollars in compensation is worse than prison especially since he's flat broke :lol:
 
Wow, DD and other statisticians, check this one out.


If we say that crime is equal and happens to everyone equally (ie, 50% good 50% bad random figure) then it would say that the percentage of people in jail should reflect or be equal to the population, right?

Well, I combined both the census and the BoP stats and apparently it's not so. Are blacks, indians, and spanish people really more violent than white and asian folks? :hmm: If they aren't, then why are there more in jail?

Code: 
Blacks:        38,929,319 (12.6% of USA population)
...in jail:    82,595    (37.9% of jail population)
Percentage of black population in jail: 0.212%

Hispanics:    50,477,594 (16.3% of USA population)
...in jail:    43,839 (34.3% of jail population*)
Percentage of spanish popluation in jail: 0.086%*

Whites:        196,817,552 (63.7% of USA population)
...in jail:    31,058 (24.3% of jail population)
Percentage of white population in jail: 0.015%

Native Indians:    2,932,248 (0.9% of USA population)
...in jail:    4,035    (1.9% of jail population)
Percentage of indian population in jail: 0.137%

Asians:        14,674,252 (4.8% of USA population)
...in jail:    3,641    (1.7% of jail population)
Percentage of asian population in jail: 0.024%
* likely includes hispanics that are detained whose native citizenships are from mexico or south america, etc, so have to be careful of what to assume from that data.
 
Back
Top