question

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

sculleywr

Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
337
Reaction score
0
Ok, I didn't know exactly where to put this because it could fit either here or in the "Our World, Our Culture" category, so if you mods could take a pick, have fun.

On to the topic: I was debating on a group on Facebook and one of the guys, who claimed to be a Christian. The topic of the debate was whether or not gay marriage should be allowed in the Christian beliefs. Everything was going fine until a man came in, claiming to be a Christian, and put up an inflammatory response that grouped together anyone with a physical, mental, or age-related disability and said that they were not to marry because that disability made them "less than human." Now, this debate is not the debate I was talking about, but more about what the Christian response to that would be and also if y'all Deaf people would take offense to that, since, as I see it, he indicated that you all were less than human.

Disclaimer: I do not agree with the person I am quoting/paraphrasing here, so don't make the argument mine please.
 
Disability as in hearing loss? Amputees? Illness? That's a lie. Christianity forbids homosexuality yes, but not disabilities. Those disabled must be given respect and be treated and supported like any other human being.
 
Yiffzer said:
Disability as in hearing loss? Amputees? Illness? That's a lie. Christianity forbids homosexuality yes, but not disabilities. Those disabled must be given respect and be treated and supported like any other human being.
Click to expand...

That is similar to what I said (more like, "You just said that several hundred thousand people, some of whom I have acquainted myself and found as extremely intelligent, are less than human." there is more, but I don't want to bore you guys with an argument which might be parroting what you say yourself.)
 
sculleywr said:
... a man came in, claiming to be a Christian, and put up an inflammatory response that grouped together anyone with a physical, mental, or age-related disability and said that they were not to marry because that disability made them "less than human" ....
Click to expand...
That is not a Christian philosophy.

I have heard that philosophy supported by eugenicists, Nazis, AGB, and the founders of Planned Parenthood (especially Margaret Sanger), and other racist groups.

If anyone claims to be a Christian and supports that philosophy, that person is wrong. Just because people have "disabilities" doesn't mean they are "less than human."
 
Yup, that's right "....a man came in CLAIMING to be a Christian..." is all that this hinges on, Not worth the space here......
 
On to the topic: I was debating on a group on Facebook and one of the guys, who claimed to be a Christian. The topic of the debate was whether or not gay marriage should be allowed in the Christian beliefs. Everything was going fine until a man came in, claiming to be a Christian, and put up an inflammatory response that grouped together anyone with a physical, mental, or age-related disability and said that they were not to marry because that disability made them "less than human."
Click to expand...

I don't recall anything in the Bible that forbids the marriage of disabled people.

But what do you want to talk about, exactly?
 
Whoa!!! every person with disabilities have every right to get married.. they have same feelings as much as others without disabilities...
 
sculleywr said:
Ok, I didn't know exactly where to put this because it could fit either here or in the "Our World, Our Culture" category, so if you mods could take a pick, have fun.

On to the topic: I was debating on a group on Facebook and one of the guys, who claimed to be a Christian. The topic of the debate was whether or not gay marriage should be allowed in the Christian beliefs. Everything was going fine until a man came in, claiming to be a Christian, and put up an inflammatory response that grouped together anyone with a physical, mental, or age-related disability and said that they were not to marry because that disability made them "less than human." Now, this debate is not the debate I was talking about, but more about what the Christian response to that would be and also if y'all Deaf people would take offense to that, since, as I see it, he indicated that you all were less than human.

Disclaimer: I do not agree with the person I am quoting/paraphrasing here, so don't make the argument mine please.
Click to expand...

First of all, please don't flame me-
According to the bible same sex marriages are a unforgiveable sin an abommanation (sp?)to God, he made adam and eve not adam and steve.
So since God is against it than it would be safe to take a firm stand against it as well.
" wither you luke warm, i will spue you out of my mouth" meaning that you better be for God and not be wishy washy about it.
Secondly i do not believe that having a disability in no way means you are less than, the person who wrote that book seems to have some personal problems. I'd take his bs with a grain of salt!
However, The judger to same sex marriages is God's place and I'm just a follower of Christ. I don't agree with either at all, I'm upholding the laws of my maker and i will always do so.
 
Umm, well, many are focusing one thing and inflamming the issue with wrong point of views about homosexuality. Now, I know, many gay dont agree with me. I do not believe God made people gay. Problem is, homosexual are NOT unforgivable sins. Unforgivable sins toward the pharisees bec, Jesus foreknew pharisees rejecting of who Christ is. Nothing else. Christ died for ALL. Problem is, focusing one sin and overlook the other. Gossipping is overwhelming in the church and God has forbid it. Two faces. But as disability goes, remember in Book of Lev., the law said, "do not curse the deaf". That is, mistreating them. Blind likewise, and remember, one of Saul's family, the boy is couldn't walk, King David blessed him. Jesus came to blind, deaf, leprosys and etc. Jesus help the struggling, but outspoken to "Mr know it all and self righteous" religious leaders.
 
If it is unforgivable sins, then show the verses. Bec I know alot of verses. I'm very cautious of the teaching. And, I have to becareful what I believe what has been taught. Bec, in my experience, I see off balance. And I studied alot of it, seeing the missing points. Problem is, using Bible verses without understanding the purpose of the writing, reasoning why it happens, the cultural backgrounds and etc. Many using the Bible whatever they quote against other's sins than their own. Like this, before my opening of my weaknesses and after, they live the same. What is it? GOSSIP, TWO FACES, and seeking to ruin other reputations and many etc, most churches doesn't have time for their weaknesses, bec they are busy going out and telling their sins. Many using verses out of hate or whatever "I" don't commit those sins.
 
The difficulty when discussing homosexuality as a sin is the complexity of the situation.
Homosexuality as an act. Homosexuality as a sexual prefrence. Homosexuality as a lifestyle.
Homosexuality is a sin (I agree, it can be forgiven, and is just as bad as any other sin...)
The difficulty is supporting habitual sin. If a believer stumbles and sins, then they are to seek forgiveness and repent. Repent meaning to try and correct the situation. If they don't believe in God/Jesus/Bible then what am I to say to them? I must first inform any person about God's love for them, not point out that they are sinful, because that is meaningless to them.

Soceity says it legal to get drunk, it is legal to gamble (some places), it is legal to watch porn, it is legal for tons of sinful stuff. If society makes Gay marriage legal, I will view it the same way. It is sinful and I do not agree, but I will not be malice or angry about it.

... disability made them "less than human."

That makes me extremely angry. I have no disability, but am offended that someone would say that. Jesus died for the sin's of the world. that includes everyone. The Bible has no defenition on what makes a 'human' or what is less than 'human'.
 
That's the problem, not one person, inspite of anything, not one soul is less than human, tho, been treating a person like less than human is far evil than anything else. Religious leaders is very good example by treating disabilities and sinful lifestyle or disease as they treating them less than human, that's where Jesus rebuke, and the reason Jesus called them vipers or poisonous snakes and other labes, why? Jesus saw their heart is most evil and darkest sin in their own life inspite of their "self-righteous" as Isaiah mentioned, self-righteous is like a filthy rags. Right, about habitual sins. What is sin? All of us has some kind of habitual sins. Repent start as the thought pattern from the heart, by agreeing with God, I have sinned against Him and cannot live up to His standard. But as a goal, is allowing Him to work in my life and God didn't say, you better clean up your life. He said give it all up or by saying stop striving your own power, let Me help you thru this. Each has different experience how to deal our own mistakes and etc. God sees this, like King David for instance, he has surmountable sins, but God sees in his heart of desire to know God in personal way. Problem is, we look at their outward appearance and behaviors. I'm not tooo open one side and tooo close on the other side, like rightist and leftist. I don't agree either one of them. I'm more as between.
 
christlovedeaf said:
Umm, well, many are focusing one thing and inflamming the issue with wrong point of views about homosexuality. Now, I know, many gay dont agree with me. I do not believe God made people gay. Problem is, homosexual are NOT unforgivable sins. Unforgivable sins toward the pharisees bec, Jesus foreknew pharisees rejecting of who Christ is. Nothing else. Christ died for ALL. Problem is, focusing one sin and overlook the other. Gossipping is overwhelming in the church and God has forbid it. Two faces. But as disability goes, remember in Book of Lev., the law said, "do not curse the deaf". That is, mistreating them. Blind likewise, and remember, one of Saul's family, the boy is couldn't walk, King David blessed him. Jesus came to blind, deaf, leprosys and etc. Jesus help the struggling, but outspoken to "Mr know it all and self righteous" religious leaders.
Click to expand...

Well, here is where we take issue. This is because if God would make people gay, why would He also say that homosexuality is a sin? That is a contradiction in and of itself. However, seeing as how they have yet to prove the existence of a naturally occurring (not lab occurring) gay gene, I don't need to worry about it. If God "made people gay," then there would be nothing in the Bible against homosexuality, whereas in a public poll I posted on Volconvo, the masses of which voted being non-Christians, homosexuality is forbidden in all forms. It also would contradict the very essence of free will, as it would make homosexuality an instinct and not a choice. Since the only biological thing about it is that some people are more prone to it like some people are more prone to alcoholism, but I don't hear (or see) Christians claiming that isn't a sin.
 
DreamSlayer said:
The difficulty when discussing homosexuality as a sin is the complexity of the situation.
Homosexuality as an act. Homosexuality as a sexual prefrence. Homosexuality as a lifestyle.
Homosexuality is a sin (I agree, it can be forgiven, and is just as bad as any other sin...)
The difficulty is supporting habitual sin. If a believer stumbles and sins, then they are to seek forgiveness and repent. Repent meaning to try and correct the situation. If they don't believe in God/Jesus/Bible then what am I to say to them? I must first inform any person about God's love for them, not point out that they are sinful, because that is meaningless to them.

Soceity says it legal to get drunk, it is legal to gamble (some places), it is legal to watch porn, it is legal for tons of sinful stuff. If society makes Gay marriage legal, I will view it the same way. It is sinful and I do not agree, but I will not be malice or angry about it.

... disability made them "less than human."

That makes me extremely angry. I have no disability, but am offended that someone would say that. Jesus died for the sin's of the world. that includes everyone. The Bible has no defenition on what makes a 'human' or what is less than 'human'.
Click to expand...

I agree all the way.
 
christlovedeaf said:
If it is unforgivable sins, then show the verses. Bec I know alot of verses. I'm very cautious of the teaching. And, I have to becareful what I believe what has been taught. Bec, in my experience, I see off balance. And I studied alot of it, seeing the missing points. Problem is, using Bible verses without understanding the purpose of the writing, reasoning why it happens, the cultural backgrounds and etc. Many using the Bible whatever they quote against other's sins than their own. Like this, before my opening of my weaknesses and after, they live the same. What is it? GOSSIP, TWO FACES, and seeking to ruin other reputations and many etc, most churches doesn't have time for their weaknesses, bec they are busy going out and telling their sins. Many using verses out of hate or whatever "I" don't commit those sins.
Click to expand...

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."

aschemosune is the word translated as the emboldened phrase. The literal meaning of that word is "Unseemliness," specifically dealing with, in this case, one another's own nakedness.

Jude 1:7: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Remember that the angels caused the men of Sodom and Gomorrah to be blind for attempting to have homosexual relations with the angels.
 
christlovedeaf said:
If it is unforgivable sins, then show the verses. Bec I know alot of verses. I'm very cautious of the teaching. And, I have to becareful what I believe what has been taught. Bec, in my experience, I see off balance. And I studied alot of it, seeing the missing points. Problem is, using Bible verses without understanding the purpose of the writing, reasoning why it happens, the cultural backgrounds and etc. Many using the Bible whatever they quote against other's sins than their own. Like this, before my opening of my weaknesses and after, they live the same. What is it? GOSSIP, TWO FACES, and seeking to ruin other reputations and many etc, most churches doesn't have time for their weaknesses, bec they are busy going out and telling their sins. Many using verses out of hate or whatever "I" don't commit those sins.
Click to expand...

I am aware of both sides' arguments supporting homosexuality as an environmental issue and an instinctual issue. If we look at animals, we see that some of them perform homosexual acts. Surely they aren't "influenced" into doing it, now are they? But when it comes to religion, human beings are to be above animals. We are not to look at animals and make examples of them. Instead, we are to be "better" or different from them.

The gay lifestyle is really an environmental thing. For example, if you raised a child in an entirely male community with absolutely no females around, and you taught him that males love and have sex with each other, that child would probably not reject that idea. They would most likely practice that belief and perhaps reject the beauty of the female anatomy. This is a farfetched example though.

The point is, you can convince someone, especially with reason, that being gay is okay. You can convince someone to become gay if only they'd "let themselves go". You can convince someone to become gay if they'd "try it out". It is easy to convince people, nullifying their senses, into believing a false idea. There are some gay people who claim that they had "no choice but to be gay". They felt that their body naturally made them that way - to be gay. Yet, having the experience of "close encounters" with gay people, I can easily dismiss this because I know how easy it is to become gay if only I could be convinced.

This isn't to say that gay people are "stupid". Some are and some aren't. They just find justification to be gay. Just like Christians find justification to believe in Jesus Christ even though there's no solid reliability of the Bible. Just like Muslims finding justification to commit suicide bombing when Islam doesn't accept such a thing. Just like I, finding justification to spend hours on this forum when I'm not even doing school work! :p
 
sculleywr said:
Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."

aschemosune is the word translated as the emboldened phrase. The literal meaning of that word is "Unseemliness," specifically dealing with, in this case, one another's own nakedness.

Jude 1:7: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Remember that the angels caused the men of Sodom and Gomorrah to be blind for attempting to have homosexual relations with the angels.
Click to expand...

Romans 1 as you quoted, those who are gay does not mean God gave them up. Verses before that says, God gave them up, bec they have no thanksgiving to God and lot of bigotry attitudes. In Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed bec of all kinds of evil, but Angels blinding them is because trying to come out as a forceful act or rape or violent behaivor which lead the Angels to blinding them. But the problem is, many condone their behavior other than homosexuals, or fornicators or etc. But as I read throughout the OT, God destroyed all kinds of viles, gossippers, and other evil tongues. Problem is alot are associating with gossippers and two faces which Paul mentioned has nothing to do with them. But problem is, many focusing on other people's weaknesses other than their own, which causes lot of "forest fires"within the churches which is still out of control. And all the honors, and rewards from the church for those who are malicious gossippers, two faces, but those who are struggling like alcholism, or sex sins been banned, that's where something isnt right. But as for me, I keep my life in the Lord and guide me thru the valleys.
 
Funny that God wished modesty among all of mankind and you're being a hypocrite by having that avatar of two gay men kissing.
 
It is no point to talk about that GAY and SIN. Christlovedeaf made the point and he chose whatever he want. He know when his time is come. I am not going to bother him if I were you. He is no point and don't let yourself focus and draw your faith from God into World.

World is shortly time and will be destroy and re-new Earth and Sky which both will be heaven!

However, You know... Sin is Sin. There is no excuse but the only way we practice to do right life. How can you tell people if you have kid and it is ok to kissing adult? NO or YES? Then how it that property to approve if GOD ALLOW IT.

Christlovedeaf, no point for you reply. We already know enough....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top