Salvation Of The Lord Alone

[Reba]

...That's not an action-oriented approach. It brings about salvation according to Christian belief, but it doesn't make anything better in the world, it doesn't alleviate suffering or poverty, it does not treat diseases or console the bereaved, it does not fight against the evil that exists in our world.

Christians desire to serve their Lord and other people. They establish charitable and educational institutions, operate shelters and soup kitchens, send doctors and nurses to underdeveloped nations, and console the bereaved. That doesn't make anything better in the world?

Preachers admonish their people to not steal, cheat, lie, or kill. They preach that they should be good citizens and give generously to othes. They preach that Christians should be courteous and thoughtful. Christians constantly fight against evil that exists in the world. They preach and teach against it, vote against it, and sometimes even physically fight against it. They sacrifice their health, fortunes, and sometimes lives to help other people. That doesn't make a better world?

Christians don't do these good works to obtain salvation. They do these good works because they are saved.

 

[netrox]

I love to insult. It relaxes me.

Seriously, the Bible is NOT to be taken literally and it's just amazing you take it literally and that is wrong.

 

[Maria]

I love to insult. It relaxes me.

Seriously, the Bible is NOT to be taken literally and it's just amazing you take it literally and that is wrong.

You love to insult ? I don't think it will make you a cool guy. It will not make you a nice guy, either.

You can disagree to agree or agree to disagree. It is not necessary to insult for your own pleasure.

 

[Teresh]

I'm curious, where do you get these ideas?

Actually, this one came from you and other "Christians" on this forum. When you claim that the Christians who do evil are not really Christians (or not "born-again") what that says is you do not want to take responsibility for it nor be part of the solution to it. When you've created a position for yourself where you are exempt from responsibility, it's almost euphoric, no? Obviously a "born-again" Christian can do no evil, and yet we see constantly the homophobic, sexist, racist nonsense that many "born-again" Christians commit.

But you don't want to think that perhaps a "born-again" Christian can be hateful or wicked. So instead, you claim that they must not really be "born-again". It allows you to plead ignorance rather than try to fix the situation.

It's so much easier to not be responsible or accountable for anyone's actions, no?

Preachers constantly admonish their congregations to avoid sin, to repent of sin, and to make amends to those they offend.

Of course.

They establish charitable and educational institutions, operate shelters and soup kitchens, send doctors and nurses to underdeveloped nations, and console the bereaved. That doesn't make anything better in the world?

That's positive action. The problem, however, is that it is not *necessary* to get to heaven according to Christian teaching. "Charity" is a virtue, not a requirement.

Christians don't do these good works to obtain salvation. They do these good works because they are saved.

So then why are there many people who do the same works and are not "saved"? An honestly good person goes to hell because he or she does not believe Jesus is God?

What if that person, perhaps, lives in a remote part of the world and has never even heard of Jesus or God? Is he going to hell? According to Christian teaching, yes.

Seriously, the Bible is NOT to be taken literally and it's just amazing you take it literally and that is wrong.

I read the Wikipedia article on Y-Chromosomal Aaron last night and it kind of freaked me out. Y-Chromosomal Aaron lived around 1050ish BCE, the same time thereabouts that Aaron supposedly lived.

The text is not all to be taken literally, but there is some truth to it.

 

[christlovedeaf]

Actually, this one came from you and other "Christians" on this forum. When you claim that the Christians who do evil are not really Christians (or not "born-again") what that says is you do not want to take responsibility for it nor be part of the solution to it. When you've created a position for yourself where you are exempt from responsibility, it's almost euphoric, no? Obviously a "born-again" Christian can do no evil, and yet we see constantly the homophobic, sexist, racist nonsense that many "born-again" Christians commit.
NOT SURE IF YOU UNDERSTAND CLEARLY, BEC I PERSONALLY NEVER SAID THAT AND DON'T AGREE WITH THAT PART. BEING BORN AGAIN OR SAVED BY GRACE DOES NOT MEAN WHAT WE DID EXEMPT OUR ACTIONS OR AVOIDING ACCOUNTABLE WHAT WE DID. BUT WHAT WE DID WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS AND SINS ARE FORGIVEN. AND DID MENTIONED ABOUT WHAT HE SAID, IF WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE, THAT MEAN WE CAN GET A WAY WITH SINS AND CONTINUE LIVING IN THEM? GOD FORBID! DOES THAT MEAN WE WON'T DO IT AGAIN, THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT LIVING INSIDE OF US AND CONVICT US. SO REPENTANCE MEANT CHANGE OUR WAYS, DOES NOT MEAN YOU WON'T MAKE MISTAKES AGAIN, NO, IT MEANS BY MIND RENEWAL EVERDAY IF WE LET HIM CONTROL US AND FIGHT AGAINST UNGODLY WAYS THAT ATTACK US. OUR LIFE COMPLETE AS OF PERFECTION DOESN'T COMES TILL HE COMES. SO, NO, THE LAW OF GOD LIVING INSIDE OF US.
But you don't want to think that perhaps a "born-again" Christian can be hateful or wicked. So instead, you claim that they must not really be "born-again". It allows you to plead ignorance rather than try to fix the situation. IT IS A PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY OF THAT ACTIONS. YES, I MET MANY HATEFUL CHRISTIANS, THO, IF I KNEW THE PERSON, THEN I CAN SHARE WITH THE PERSON TO ACKNOWLEDGE OF THAT BEHAVIOR, BUT IF I DON'T KNOW THE PERSON, IN SOMEWAY CAN EXPOSE THE LOVE THRU ME TO THE PERSON, BUT IF THE PERSON REMAIN THAT WAY, THAT WILL BE GOD TAKES CARE OF THE PERSON.

It's so much easier to not be responsible or accountable for anyone's actions, no?
AS I MENTIONED ABOVE, BETTER WAY TO SAY, GOD IS NOT MOCK, WHAT YOU SOW SHALL BE REAP. THERE IS GOOD AND BAD ACCOUNTABLE BASED HOW U LIVE OBEDIENCE OR DISOBEDIENCE.


Of course.
AS JAMES SAID IN SCRIPTURES, IF YOU JUST HEARER NOT DOER, THEN ITS IN VAIN. MANY COME TO CHURCH WITH THE AMEN AND THEN WALK OUT DIFFERENT AS A SAME OLE PERSON, THAT PERSON IS A HEARER NOT DOER. IF BOTH HEARER AND DOER, THAT DOER IS DISCIPLINE HIM OR HERSELF BY THE HELP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, BEC THAT PERSON ASK THE LORD TO HELP. HE DOES.


That's positive action. The problem, however, is that it is not *necessary* to get to heaven according to Christian teaching. "Charity" is a virtue, not a requirement.
RIGHT, ITS NOT WHAT YOU DO BY YOURSELF, IT IS NOT A REQUIREMNTS, BUT ALLOW THE LORD FLOW THRU YOU TO BE ABLE TO DO. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU DOING IT FOR THE LORD AND LET THE LORD FLOWS THRU YOU AND ALLOW HIM TO ENABLE TO DO SO. ITS A GIFTS THAT GOD USES YOU.


So then why are there many people who do the same works and are not "saved"? An honestly good person goes to hell because he or she does not believe Jesus is God?
SIMILAR I MENTION ABOVE, THIS IS HOW IT WORKS, REMEMBER ABOUT ONE OF THE RICHES RELIGIOUS LEADER(STUDY THE LAW OF MOSES), TOLD JESUS THAT HE FOLLOW ALL 10 COMMANDMENTS. AND JESUS SAID, THEN GIVE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE TO THE POOR. WHAT WAS HIS CHOICE? JESUS DIDN'T MEANT BY IF YOU ARE RICH YOU HAVE TO DO THAT, JESUS POINT OUT THE MISS THE MARK, BEC THO EVERY EFFORT YOU TRY, SIN REMAINS, ONLY JESUS BLOOD TO COVER THAT. SIN ROBS US. GOD PROVIDES. SIN IS NOT BASED WHAT WE DID, ITS BASED WHAT WE ARE BORN FROM AND ITS A HAND DOWN. JUST LIKE CANCER, IF MY FAMILY HAVE CANCER, MORE LIKELY I WILL HAVE IT TOO, BEC HAND DOWN, SAME AS SIN. GOD APPLAUD OF THAT, BUT CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW YOU FEEL IF SOMEONE REJECT YOUR CHILD AND HURT YOUR CHILD, HOW WOULD YOU THINK FATHER FELT? BUT THE DEATH FROM THE CROSS IS OUT OF HIS LOVE TOWARD US. JUST LIKE MILITARY OUT FOR WAR FOR DEFENDING THIS COUNTRY BEC OF SOLDIERS LOVE FOR THIS COUNTRY. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT JESUS DOES FOR US.
What if that person, perhaps, lives in a remote part of the world and has never even heard of Jesus or God? Is he going to hell? According to Christian teaching, yes.
OT AND NT MENTIONED THAT, THAT IS WHY, JESUS SAID, GO YE THEREFORE TO ALL NATIONS. START AT HOME THEN SPREAD, WHEREVER GOD CALLED EACH OF US TO DO.


I read the Wikipedia article on Y-Chromosomal Aaron last night and it kind of freaked me out. Y-Chromosomal Aaron lived around 1050ish BCE, the same time thereabouts that Aaron supposedly lived.

The text is not all to be taken literally, but there is some truth to it.

...

 

[deafdyke]

Obviously a "born-again" Christian can do no evil, and yet we see constantly the homophobic, sexist, racist nonsense that many "born-again" Christians commit.

Exactly......I mean it HAS gotten better. Mainline Christianity has gotten a lot more tolerant. But there's still residue from the extremely conservative factions. That's easy to see......I mean it wasn't til recently that Bob Jones University lifted its ban on interracial dating. As a matter of fact, back in the '20's and '30's , what we think of as Ku Klux Klan (!) beleifs were essentially mainline Protestant beliefs. I mean every so often, on the Stormfront site, you'll see someone from an "old time gospel Baptist" perspective express longings for the old days, b/c KKK and very old fashioned Baptist beleifs are essentially identical!

 

[christlovedeaf]

Exactly......I mean it HAS gotten better. Mainline Christianity has gotten a lot more tolerant. But there's still residue from the extremely conservative factions. That's easy to see......I mean it wasn't til recently that Bob Jones University lifted its ban on interracial dating. As a matter of fact, back in the '20's and '30's , what we think of as Ku Klux Klan (!) beleifs were essentially mainline Protestant beliefs. I mean every so often, on the Stormfront site, you'll see someone from an "old time gospel Baptist" perspective express longings for the old days, b/c KKK and very old fashioned Baptist beleifs are essentially identical!

True, but, in the old days baptist, all doesn't agree and there were split of that bec in christianity from the doctrine of Christ, there is no place of hate. Now, I understand, its a controversial and confusions the meaning and the difference between hate sin and hate a person. Now, like different race as red, yellow, black and white, there should be no hates. But as a word of homophobic, its based on what is a part of. Now, let me put it this way, if a child do whatever he or she pleases, do you hate the child, bec you don't approve of ur child's behavior? As of a person, see, I don't label myself gay, but christian, not gay christian. Why? I personally believe what I commit is a sin. Many get so confuse what love means. What upsetting me, that many churches condemning homosexual is UNGODLY. They didn't study carefully how Jesus minister the woman caught in adultery, the woman at the well, the leprosies, and etc. I'm fortunate the church I go, does not condemn people but letting God's spirit work and convict a person. I know, its hard to point out. Like one go to far to the left and the other go far to the right. What I leanred lately getting to see more of it, when people comes to church to hear the sermons and thought he's a great pointer, "I WISH THAT PERSON LISTEN TO THIS" attitude. Relly, the sermon is just for me what God tells me what I must do and what He calls me to do. Anything like going out thee criticizing people sins is not of God. Jesus said, I come to give life, not condemn. I hope that explain clearly or point. But, my responsibilty to becareful how I weigh in this. That is, the scripture did say, if you see ur bro or sis sin, need to go to the person ALONE, it is not my business by telling everybody else what he or she did, that's not what God says, and scripture does say mind your own business. That is I should have no place, to run after anyones private life and tell everyone else. That's pure evil in the eyes of God and guess what? I confront with those people and there are so many " Harriett Oleson" lifestyle than the "Ingalls" style (Little House on the Prairie). That is why there are some churches point out about what our responsibilty asof an example of Christ instead hurting other people.

 

[Reba]

Actually, this one came from you and other "Christians" on this forum. When you claim that the Christians who do evil are not really Christians (or not "born-again") what that says is you do not want to take responsibility for it nor be part of the solution to it.

I'm not saying that born-again Christians never commit evil acts. In fact, I've often stated the opposite. I've stated many times that born-again Christians DO commit sins, and that they must confess them, repent them, and right their wrongs.

What I've tried to make clear, over and over, is that not every person or organization that claims the name "Christian" is actually born again or saved.

I just don't know how to put it more simply or more clearly for you.

 

[Reba]

...The problem, however, is that it is not *necessary* to get to heaven according to Christian teaching. "Charity" is a virtue, not a requirement.

Are you saying that the only motivation for performing charitable acts should be to meet some arbitrary "requirements" for getting into heaven?

 

[jazzy]

I'm not saying that born-again Christians never commit evil acts. In fact, I've often stated the opposite. I've stated many times that born-again Christians DO commit sins, and that they must confess them, repent them, and right their wrongs.

What I've tried to make clear, over and over, is that not every person or organization that claims the name "Christian" is actually born again or saved.

I just don't know how to put it more simply or more clearly for you.

U do not see it as we have seen it. Thanks to this pastor who shocked my husband with his remark words years ago because he does not like the way my husband looked and judged him as "unsaved". It is what we talk about hypocrite among "saved" or "born again Christian". How can they must confess and repent sins when they contiune to use those evil words. Believe me or not when anyone said those word "unsaved " to people is evil . They do not see it as evil as I do.

 

[deafdyke]

Well you know.......How do we know for sure that the Bible IS holy? The Bible was written and the books were chosen by MAN.

 

[Reba]

U do not see it as we have seen it. Thanks to this pastor who shocked my husband with his remark words years ago because he does not like the way my husband looked and judged him as "unsaved". It is what we talk about hypocrite among "saved" or "born again Christian". How can they must confess and repent sins when they contiune to use those evil words. Believe me or not when anyone said those word "unsaved " to people is evil . They do not see it as evil as I do.

I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience.

Pastors can make mistakes, too. Not all pastors are good pastors.

 

[Teresh]

I'm not saying that born-again Christians never commit evil acts. In fact, I've often stated the opposite. I've stated many times that born-again Christians DO commit sins, and that they must confess them, repent them, and right their wrongs.

"A born-again Christian will still commit sins but the Holy Spirit and Scriptures will convict him/her to confess those sins, quit those sins and right the wrongs that he/she committed against others."

Your former statement could be summarised as "born again Christians once sinned, but once they were born again, they can do no wrong."

What I've tried to make clear, over and over, is that not every person or organization that claims the name "Christian" is actually born again or saved.

So if you're all Christians, have the same set of beliefs and are equally capable of sin, what's the difference between "born again" or "saved" and "not born again" or "not saved"?

Are you saying that the only motivation for performing charitable acts should be to meet some arbitrary "requirements" for getting into heaven?

No, I'm saying that some degree of charity should be an expectation rather than an optional good thing to do.

 

[Reba]

"A born-again Christian will still commit sins but the Holy Spirit and Scriptures will convict him/her to confess those sins, quit those sins and right the wrongs that he/she committed against others."

Your former statement could be summarised as "born again Christians once sinned, but once they were born again, they can do no wrong."

NO.

Let me try again.

Born-again saved Christians do commit sins. They can do wrong, even after they are saved.

I never stated that Christians don't sin after salvation. I said that they do sin, and that the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sins, and that God disciplines them for their unrepented sins.

This is very frustrating. It's as though you don't even read what I post, no matter how many times I post it.

So if you're all Christians, have the same set of beliefs and are equally capable of sin, what's the difference between "born again" or "saved" and "not born again" or "not saved"?

No, not everyone who uses the name "Christian" is actually a Christian, nor do they all have the same set of beliefs.

Didn't you read my previous posts explaining that?

I'll try again.

Many people and religions use the name "Christian" without actually being born again or saved. The reason I specify "born-again" Christian is to differentiate between individuals who have actually accepted Jesus Christ as personal savior, and people who just use the name "Christian" to either identify a religion that claims some kind of relationship to Jesus Christ, or people who just claim the title by default, simply because they are no other religion nor atheist (though Gentile might be more accurate a term).

Not all religions that use the name "Christian" have the same beliefs. Many religions say that they are Christian but don't even follow the basic doctrine of salvation by grace alone, not works. Some religions tack on additional requirements, such as rites, church membership, baptism, or other works, for salvation. Some religions claim that salvation is not permanent, or that it requires certain behavioral "proofs". Those religions are not following the doctrines of Jesus Christ, so they are not born-again Christians.

 

[Reba]

No, I'm saying that some degree of charity should be an expectation rather than an optional good thing to do.

Charity is not optional for Christians either.

I Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

 

[jazzy]

NO.

Let me try again.

Born-again saved Christians do commit sins. They can do wrong, even after they are saved.

I never stated that Christians don't sin after salvation. I said that they do sin, and that the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sins, and that God disciplines them for their unrepented sins.

This is very frustrating. It's as though you don't even read what I post, no matter how many times I post it.



No, not everyone who uses the name "Christian" is actually a Christian, nor do they all have the same set of beliefs.

Didn't you read my previous posts explaining that?

I'll try again.

Many people and religions use the name "Christian" without actually being born again or saved. The reason I specify "born-again" Christian is to differentiate between individuals who have actually accepted Jesus Christ as personal savior, and people who just use the name "Christian" to either identify a religion that claims some kind of relationship to Jesus Christ, or people who just claim the title by default, simply because they are no other religion nor atheist (though Gentile might be more accurate a term).

Not all religions that use the name "Christian" have the same beliefs. Many religions say that they are Christian but don't even follow the basic doctrine of salvation by grace alone, not works. Some religions tack on additional requirements, such as rites, church membership, baptism, or other works, for salvation. Some religions claim that salvation is not permanent, or that it requires certain behavioral "proofs". Those religions are not following the doctrines of Jesus Christ, so they are not born-again Christians.

I guess many deaf people here in my area whom claim they are born again christians (fundamental christian) are not following the doctrines of Jesus Christ. Still see them do wrong against me and my faith in Him.

In your word, my faith and salvation thru grace in Him thru CC is false? Do u actually believe people whom religons alike CC are not born again Christian so in other word u said I am not born again Christian? Then how come I get all those blessings and grace from God everyday. Holy Spirit still living in me and work with me daily? I made a choice to go baack to CC because this is where Jesus Christ led me to. He knows who I am and my heart is.

 

[Teresh]

This is very frustrating. It's as though you don't even read what I post, no matter how many times I post it.

That statement would be incorrect. I actually do read every word of your posts before I respond to them.

Many people and religions use the name "Christian" without actually being born again or saved.

Ah, and therein lies the rub. You don't believe in the legitimacy of other types of Christianity because they are not the same as yours. You don't believe other types of Christianity could be legitimate because they have a different set of ideas on the meaning of text.

Such a fallacy allows you to insulate yourself from

people who just claim the title by default, simply because they are no other religion nor atheist (though Gentile might be more accurate a term).

Well, no, because most Christians (even "born again") are Gentiles.

Not all religions that use the name "Christian" have the same beliefs. Many religions say that they are Christian but don't even follow the basic doctrine of salvation by grace alone, not works.

Ironically, that was never a basic doctrine... It was something invented by the Protestants about 1500 years later. For a "basic doctrine", it's a fairly new concept only existing in the most recent quarter of Christianity's life.

 

[Reba]

That statement would be incorrect. I actually do read every word of your posts before I respond to them.

Then I guess you just don't understand what I post. Maybe I'm just wasting my time because I seem to be repeating myself.

...Such a fallacy allows you to insulate yourself from

From what?

Well, no, because most Christians (even "born again") are Gentiles.

Spiritually, there are three classifications:
1. Jews
2. Gentiles (unsaved non-Jews)
3. Christians (saved Jews and saved non-Jews)

 

[Reba]

Ironically, that was never a basic doctrine... It was something invented by the Protestants about 1500 years later. For a "basic doctrine", it's a fairly new concept only existing in the most recent quarter of Christianity's life.

Salvation by faith in God's grace was always the basic doctrine. That's how all the patriarchs of the Old Testament were saved, and that's how the saints of the New Testament were saved. It wasn't "invented" later. Faith in God's grace saved Stephen, Paul, the thief on the cross, and the Ethiopian eunuch. Faith in God's grace saved Abraham, Isaac, Rahab, Noah, etc.

It was later religions that wrongly added rites and works to their doctrines of salvation.

 

[Reba]

...In your word, my faith and salvation thru grace in Him thru CC is false?

Each person is saved individually. There is no church or religion that can save people's souls. Only Jesus saves.

Only God knows the heart of each person. Only He and you know if you in your heart accepted the blood of Jesus as your only salvation.

There are saved people (individuals) in Catholic churches, in Baptist churches, in Presbyterian churches, in Brethern chapels, in skid row missions, in secret Chinese home churches, etc. It is not the church that saves people; it is Jesus. Some people become saved by themselves, sitting alone with a Bible, praying to God in a quiet room. Some people become saved during strong evangelistic preaching. Each person's salvation experience is personal and different. It doesn't matter if they belong to churches or religions. Those things don't save people. The only important thing is that you (and I) truly believe in our hearts that only the blood of Jesus' sacrifice can save us from our sins, and that we repent from those sins, and surrender to Him.

Do u actually believe people whom religons alike CC are not born again Christian so in other word u said I am not born again Christian?

There are born-again Christians who are members of the Catholic church. Catholics can become born-again Christians just like everyone else can.

I do state that the Catholic Church does not teach the doctrine of salvation by grace alone. The Catholic Church does require additional rites for "salvation", and does teach that salvation is not guaranteed nor permanent. The Catholic Church also teaches that Mary has a role in salvation. Those are false teachings, and lead people away from the simple and true salvation of Jesus Christ.

Then how come I get all those blessings and grace from God everyday. Holy Spirit still living in me and work with me daily? I made a choice to go baack to CC because this is where Jesus Christ led me to. He knows who I am and my heart is.

If the Holy Spirit indwells you, then He will lead you to a church that preaches the Gospel; that is, salvation by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ only, and no other doctrines. The Holy Spirit won't lead you to a church that preaches against the truth of Jesus. He can't contradict Himself.

I don't know your heart. All I can say is compare your experiences with what the Bible says.