Real change....real progress.

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kokonut

kokonut

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Well, it's certainly a change but progress?
"I will be held accountable,'' the president said. "I've got four years and.... A year from now, I think people are going to see that we're starting to make some progress, but there's still going to be some pain out there.... If I don't have this done in three years, then there's going to be a one-term proposition.''
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It's been 1 year and 4 months later past from "a year from now..". Progress?


Obama: 'One-term proposition' if no fix: The Swamp


:lol:

But sad for the American people...they're the ones who suffer.
 
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It's sad that Bush went from a surplus to the financial ruin we have today, and he got two terms.
 
Beowulf said:
It's sad that Bush went from a surplus to the financial ruin we have today, and he got two terms.
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As much as I hate defending him, Bush did also preside while the country shifted from irrational exuberance (dot-com bubble burst) to overly defensive (as an effect of 9/11). That isn't to say that Bush did an especially good job, but since I'd equally defend Obama by pointing out that he started at the cusp of a horrid financial collapse, I feel vaguely compelled to point out mitigating circumstances for Bush, too.
 
StSapphire said:
As much as I hate defending him, Bush did also preside while the country shifted from irrational exuberance (dot-com bubble burst) to overly defensive (as an effect of 9/11). That isn't to say that Bush did an especially good job, but since I'd equally defend Obama by pointing out that he started at the cusp of a horrid financial collapse, I feel vaguely compelled to point out mitigating circumstances for Bush, too.
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Bush deliberately lied to get us into this mess. Obama didn't. Therein lies the difference.
 
Beowulf said:
Bush deliberately lied to get us into this mess. Obama didn't. Therein lies the difference.
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Bush (probably) lied to get us into one specific mess. He didn't lie to cause the dot-com bubble burst (which he inherited, similar to Obama inheriting the financial mess, and had a similarly negative impact on the economy in general, though not nearly as widespread), and unless you're a conspiracy theorist who thinks the government is far more competent than I'd ever be willing to give them credit for, then he also didn't lie and/or fabricate 9/11 itself, either.

I could also be easily convinced that Bush himself didn't actually "lie" about Iraq so much as "was completely wrong without realizing it" (at least at first - after a year or two, he was either lied to or lying himself, but that's an entirely different matter).
 
Wait and see.

Obama has little over 1 year to left and anything could change sooner.
 
Foxrac said:
Wait and see.

Obama has little over 1 year to left and anything could change sooner.
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Uh... let's be realistic, it ain't gonna magically get better overnight. We're simply on the slow road to recovery, regardless of your opinion of the President.
 
StSapphire said:
Uh... let's be realistic, it ain't gonna magically get better overnight. We're simply on the slow road to recovery, regardless of your opinion of the President.
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Assuming it's on a recovery or that we are on a recovery. For all we know it could drastically turn for the worse. If the U.S. cannot borrow money, it must print more money. Doesn't help with the inflation one bit. Rising gasoline prices will affect everybody, especially the lower income people.
 
StSapphire said:
Bush (probably) lied to get us into one specific mess. He didn't lie to cause the dot-com bubble burst (which he inherited, similar to Obama inheriting the financial mess, and had a similarly negative impact on the economy in general, though not nearly as widespread), and unless you're a conspiracy theorist who thinks the government is far more competent than I'd ever be willing to give them credit for, then he also didn't lie and/or fabricate 9/11 itself, either.

I could also be easily convinced that Bush himself didn't actually "lie" about Iraq so much as "was completely wrong without realizing it" (at least at first - after a year or two, he was either lied to or lying himself, but that's an entirely different matter).
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I find it a bit odd that in spite of the overwhelming evidence, people buy the current argument that Bush was "misled." And don't knock the "conspiracy theorists," because they are closer to the truth than we may admit (which is why we ridicule them). I no longer investigate 9-11 matters: I am convinced of my belief, and I accept that you are equally convinced of yours. Ah well.
 
kokonut said:
I clarified it. It's been 1 year and 4 months after he said it'd be a "year from now."
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Oh, okay. That's confusing. And if you're going based on his quote that "We'll be starting to see signs of recovery" then, good work - we have. It's just not a fast or immediate recovery. It's slow, and going to continue to be slow and painful. But the numbers are getting better, rather than worse. That's what "recovery" means.

kokonut said:
Assuming it's on a recovery or that we are on a recovery. For all we know it could drastically turn for the worse. If the U.S. cannot borrow money, it must print more money. Doesn't help with the inflation one bit. Rising gasoline prices will affect everybody, especially the lower income people.
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See above. Also, please give examples of inflation other than food or energy, which have nothing to do with "printing money" or "refusal to drill" or anything silly like that, and much more to do with astronomically rising demand by China.

(For more detailed analysis, see here: The Economic Outlook as of May 2011: Yes, This Is Called the Dismal Science. Why Do You Ask? - Grasping Reality with Both Hands )

Beowulf said:
I find it a bit odd that in spite of the overwhelming evidence, people buy the current argument that Bush was "misled." And don't knock the "conspiracy theorists," because they are closer to the truth than we may admit (which is why we ridicule them). I no longer investigate 9-11 matters: I am convinced of my belief, and I accept that you are equally convinced of yours. Ah well.
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I don't honestly have an opinion on whether Bush was "misled" or simply lied entirely, but I've not seen the overwhelming (and unbiased) evidence showing that he was in full knowledge at all times that he was lying. Of course, I could also simply be blinded by the fact that it seems much more likely to me that Bush was a bumbling idiot than an evil mastermind.

As for conspiracy theorists, no, I ridicule them because they cling to whatever their conspiracy is irrationally, defending it with ever-moving goalposts and more and more increasingly unlikely leaps of faith. I've seen the White House leaking like a sinking pirate boat, and I find it extremely hard to believe that it is even remotely possible that they could arrange and execute a fake terrorist attack and subsequently cover up all evidence of it. That's something that happens in books and movies, not real life.
 
StSapphire said:
... I find it extremely hard to believe that it is even remotely possible that they could arrange and execute a fake terrorist attack and subsequently cover up all evidence of it. That's something that happens in books and movies, not real life.
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Exactly.

History shows us that no previous administrations have been able to keep any of their secrets from exposure for very long.

Even recent experience shows us that the White House can't keep secrets about covert missions.
 
Reba said:
Exactly.

History shows us that no previous administrations have been able to keep any of their secrets from exposure for very long.

Even recent experience shows us that the White House can't keep secrets about covert missions.
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This has always been my contention with any conspiracy theory that involves a government coverup. I simply don't believe in our (or any) government enough to believe they could ever actually pull it off. Far too many points of failure.
 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USnxe7hxP4I]YouTube - ‪Bush talks about EXPLOSIVES in building (on 9/11?)‬‏[/ame]

Explosives? :hmm:
 
Reba said:
Exactly.

History shows us that no previous administrations have been able to keep any of their secrets from exposure for very long.

Even recent experience shows us that the White House can't keep secrets about covert missions.
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True. Bush White House insiders are singing like canaries about 9=11. Or didn't you know? ;)
 
Oh, okay. That's confusing. And if you're going based on his quote that "We'll be starting to see signs of recovery" then, good work - we have. It's just not a fast or immediate recovery. It's slow, and going to continue to be slow and painful. But the numbers are getting better, rather than worse. That's what "recovery" means.
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And that he's accountable for it. Though I'm not sure having unemployment rate hovering between 9 and 10 percent would be seen as "signs of recovery."

See above. Also, please give examples of inflation other than food or energy, which have nothing to do with "printing money" or "refusal to drill" or anything silly like that, and much more to do with astronomically rising demand by China.
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Milton Friedman, author of Money Mischief, once said: "Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon." Or did you miss out the "quantitative easing" proposed by Volcker? Too much printing of money than the output (of what we produce) can become a bad thing. Right?
 
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