Lies about CI's

[GrendelQ]

AVT is not the only follow up for CI. So, you are saying that following implantation, your child has never attended a speech therapy session nor a session teaching her to use the CI?

And, I can guarantee you that she does not learn spoken English is the same way that a hearing child does. But, that's okay. You just keep believing that. Your child, herself, will one day show you your error.

What she does with sound input is very different from a hearing child. I believe I very specifically said that she does not "hear" as a hearing child would. Not sure why you are arguing that. I'm aware she has CIs.

But I understand that in your fury to argue any point you may have missed that.

My daughter has been at a school for the deaf for two years. You asked "Oh, then why is your daughter getting follow up therapies for her new CI status?" She is not, and has not had a CI-specific therapy or how-to session (aside from mappings) for those 2 years.

 

[jillio]

That's what I was saying the other day. I don't understand the constant need to disagree with everything we post here. What has become the point of these threads anymore? Many of us have just about stopped posting our own experiences anymore. It's too bad it's come to this.

Yes, it is. It prevents you from sharing and sorting through your experience and coming to terms with it, getting support from other individuals that have shared your experiences, and it prevents people like me from learning more that will be valuable to my clients. Oh, but for the old days of AD.

 

[Mountain Man]

Cause I speak from my own experience. My own parents didn't know signs yet I understood every word they said, especially my mother.

For your information, I was an honor student in high school. Made the honor society in both junior and high school. Also graduated cum laude with a bachelor's degree in computer science. How's that for a "low standard"?

I'm glad for your success. But I daresay you're an exception. For the majority of deaf individuals, lip reading does not provide adequate access to communication to the point that some people call it "lip guessing". Studies show that even the best lip readers are only about 30% accurate, though they can use context to fill in the gaps (and those are the best; others lipread with much less accuracy). Of course these studies are based on averages meaning that there will always be outliers like yourself. But in general, lip reading is inadequate, and not everybody can learn to do it, and certainly not with the ease that they could learn a language that they have a natural access to.

 

[Mountain Man]

He's answering MountainMan's statement that the goal shouldn't just be to "get by" -- implying that this is all that HHIssues has done and isn't enough -- but "to excel" -- which he has done.

HHIssues said that lipreading is sufficient for deaf individuals to "get by". The definition of "get by" is "to manage to exist, survive, continue in business, etc., in spite of difficulties". Thus, I do not believe that someone who "gets by" with lipreading is positioned to succeed. Perhaps HHIssues meant something different than "get by".

 

[GrendelQ]

Yes, you do continue to disagree, and each time you do, you support my assertion that you are confused about many things.

Know everything? Not me. That's why I still, after 20+ years, listen to what the deaf people tell me about their experience and what is helpful to them. Know more than most about the areas of cognitive and clinical psychology and educational psychology. Yep, I do. I have the credentials and the experience to back it up. Why are you so threatened by that?

I'm not. I'm defending my position and the approach I'm taking with my daughter, which for some reason you keep attacking with the little information you have at hand. I've not attacked your choices, your decisions, questioned your son's state of mind, or prognosticated visions of future misery for him, which you seem to feel free to do to me.

I'll turn that question right back at you. Why do you feel the need to attack and challenge my approach to providing my child with access to ASL and to spoken language? I'm not proclaiming to have THE ANSWER for all, I make it clear that my experience is all very specific to my child, to her environment, to our resources and abilities. I highly respect other approaches and look them for what I might apply with my child. Why do you feel the need to denigrate that which you haven't experienced?

 

[Mountain Man]

Yes, Jillio did, in the past, praise FJ for using sign and raising her child in a bi-bi school. However, much has changed since that point in time, and FJ has become increasingly audist in her attitude and her patronization of the deaf since the first week of her daughter's implant. Her philosophy has done a complete turn around when it comes to deaf education.

As my dad always says, "There are two sides to every story."

For what it's worth, I know you didn't turn on FJ simply because her child was implanted. I'm aware there was more to it.

 

[jillio]

HHIssues said that lipreading sufficient for deaf individuals to "get by". The definition of "get by" is "to manage to exist, survive, continue in business, etc., in spite of difficulties". Thus, I do not believe that someone who "gets by" with lipreading is positioned to succeed. Perhaps HHIssues meant something different than "get by".

I guess for some, getting 30% of what is being said around them meets their goals.

 

[jillio]

As my dad always says, "There are two sides to every story."

For what it's worth, I know you didn't turn on FJ simply because her child was implanted. I'm aware there was more to it.

I should have known you were reasonable and aware enough to figure that out!

 

[jillio]

I'm not. I'm defending my position and the approach I'm taking with my daughter, which for some reason you keep attacking with the little information you have at hand. I've not attacked your choices, your decisions, questioned your son's state of mind, or prognosticated visions of future misery for him, which you seem to feel free to do to me.

I'll turn that question right back at you. Why do you feel the need to attack and challenge my approach to providing my child with access to ASL and to spoken language? I'm not proclaiming to have THE ANSWER for all, I make it clear that my experience is all very specific to my child, to her environment, to our resources and abilities. I highly respect other approaches and look them for what I might apply with my child. Why do you feel the need to denigrate that which you haven't experienced?

It is obvious that you are defending by your defensive attitude. You take everything personally, and see accurrate information as "denigrating". You might want to take some time and ask yourself why that is.

You can not possibly know all that I have experienced. Try not to assume so much.

 

[Beowulf]

As my dad always says, "There are two sides to every story."

For what it's worth, I know you didn't turn on FJ simply because her child was implanted. I'm aware there was more to it.

I can understand why parents of recently-implanted children are so pleased they could shit. And they do, in here. Just wait a few years and listen to those children finally be able to sort out their feelings and express them to someone other than their parents. God help the families then.

 

[jillio]

I can understand why parents of recently-implanted children are so pleased they could shit. And they do, in here. Just wait a few years and listen to those children finally be able to sort out their feelings and express them to someone other than their parents. God help the families then.

**nodding** I hear it several times a week. And you know the sad part? The vast majority of the parents still have blinders on and deny the impact they have had on their kids. Few ever even have the courage to step up and say, "You know, I was doing what I believed was right. But I made a lot of mistakes. I'm sorry." The kids need to hear that. All they want is to have their pain and their struggle validated. And then they will forgive.

 

[Mountain Man]

Intelligible speech is a desirable skill to have and use, quite useful in a lot of situations.

I agree. But I also know that even with therapy, my son may never learn to produce speech. A lot of it is based on natural ability, and just as not all hearing people can become skilled singers, not all deaf people can become skilled speakers. That's why, at the moment, I'm choosing to prioritize the language that I know for a fact he has full and unrestricted access to, but we're not ignoring spoken language.

 

[jillio]

I agree. But I also know that even with therapy, my son may never learn to produce speech. A lot of it is based on natural ability, and just as not all hearing people can become skilled singers, not all deaf people can become skilled speakers. That's why, at the moment, I'm choosing to prioritize the language that I know for a fact he has full and unrestricted access to, but we're not ignoring spoken language.

Yes, it is desirable. But not mandatory. And natural inclination and talent have much to do with it....which is why someone with a profound loss can develop excellent speech skills, and someone with the exact same audiogram, or even more residual hearing, cannot. Shel and her brother come to mind immediately. Almost identical in loss, she speaks well, and he was unable to develop speech.

More sound input is only one variable involved in developing speech and, in fact, has less impact that most believe.

 

[GrendelQ]

It is obvious that you are defending by your defensive attitude. You take everything personally, and see accurrate information as "denigrating". You might was to take some time and ask yourself why that is.

Ah, well, because you insist on attacking -- personally attacking, as you've done here with my child, with her learning, her language, with my knowledge -- anyone who doesn't take their child through the same rose-strewn path your son took. I think what you've done with your son is amazing, it's wonderful, and just as I love reading good things from those on this thread who seem happy and well-adjusted, like HHIssues and even PFH , it warms my heart to know that your young deaf son is happy and successful. And it shows that there are many paths to that happiness. Why do you feel the need to tear down any path that isn't of your making? What is it about the fact that I value both ASL AND English that sticks in your craw so much?

 

[Mountain Man]

That's what I was saying the other day. I don't understand the constant need to disagree with everything we post here. What has become the point of these threads anymore? Many of us have just about stopped posting our own experiences anymore. It's too bad it's come to this.

I find the Deaf perspective very enlightening. It's one of the things that attracted me to AllDeaf.com in the first place.

 

[jillio]

Ah, well, because you insist on attacking -- personally attacking, as you've done here with my child, with her learning, her language, with my knowledge -- anyone who doesn't take their child through the same rose-strewn path your son took. I think what you've done with your son is amazing, it's wonderful, and just as I love reading good things from those on this thread who seem happy and well-adjusted, like HHIssues and even PFH , it warms my heart to know that your young deaf son is happy and successful. And it shows that there are many paths to that happiness. Why do you feel the need to tear down any path that isn't of your making? What is it about the fact that I value both ASL AND English that sticks in your craw so much?

See, there's that defensive perspective again. I haven't attacked you or your child. This issue is yours, not mine.

My son gets the credit, not me. All I did was support him in the way he needed. And I learned what he needed from the people who had been deaf children...deaf adults. Had I listened to the therapists and the public school teachers and most of the rest of the world, he would be screwed. Every day, I see kids whose parents did listen to the therapists and the doctors and the public school teachers, etc. They have problems they now have to solve on their own as a result of someone listening to and taking the advise of the wrong people. Well meaning, to be sure, but wrong all the same.

You see HHIssues as well adjusted?

 

[kokonut]

I agree. But I also know that even with therapy, my son may never learn to produce speech. A lot of it is based on natural ability, and just as not all hearing people can become skilled singers, not all deaf people can become skilled speakers. That's why, at the moment, I'm choosing to prioritize the language that I know for a fact he has full and unrestricted access to, but we're not ignoring spoken language.

Natural ability? I'd have to disagree on that aspect. It takes effort and work to develop that skill just as it takes effort and work to become a proficient pianist or a singer. Secondly, I said "intelligible" speech, not about being a skilled speaker which an altogether a different thing here. If a deaf person with intelligible speech want to progress to become a skilled speaker then that's more work to be done.

 

[AlleyCat]

I find the Deaf perspective very enlightening. It's one of the things that attracted me to AllDeaf.com in the first place.

I'm glad, and we're glad you're here.

 

[deafskeptic]

I'm glad, and we're glad you're here.

+1.

 

[jillio]

Natural ability? I'd have to disagree on that aspect. It takes effort and work to develop that skill just as it takes effort and work to become a proficient pianist or a singer. Secondly, I said "intelligible" speech, not about being a skilled speaker which an altogether a different thing here. If a deaf person with intelligible speech want to progress to become a skilled speaker then that's more work to be done.

You are suffering under the same misconceptions regarding speech skills that many others are. Of course it takes work and effort....which is an indication that spoken language is not natural to a deaf child.

One can also devote huge amounts of work and effort and never, ever become proficient in spoken language, piano playing or singing.