Reverse Discrimination Case

[Jiro]

This makes absolutely no sense in light of the fact that eligibility was determined based on test scores.

To think that our world is operated on test scores to pick the senior staff is.... sadly very naive. Again - I have repeated this and I'm repeating it again. The exam was both written and oral.... plus office politic. If one scores higher on written than oral, that would imply a book-smart person. If one scores higher on oral than written, that would imply a person with people-skill. On the top of it - it involves some office politic and connections.

perhaps it would do you good to work for an organization in formal setting like... you know - with hierarchical structure. that would help you understand this issue better.

 

[jillio]

To think that our world is operated on test scores to pick the senior staff is.... sadly very naive. Again - I have repeated this and I'm repeating it again. The exam was both written and oral.... plus office politic. If one scores higher on written than oral, that would imply a book-smart person. If one scores higher on oral than written, that would imply a person with people-skill. On the top of it - it involves some office politic and connections.

perhaps it would do you good to work for an organization in formal setting like... you know - with hierarchical structure. that would help you understand this issue better.

Here is the flaw in your logic: The fire dept. did rely on test scores to decide eligibility for promotion. That is the whole point behind the lawsuit.

And yes, the exam had both written and oral portions. They were weighted differently, however.

Had eligibility for promotion been decided using a hierarchal structure, then seniority would have decided who was promoted and who wasn't. No test scores needed, and therefore, no test needed.



If there is office politics and connections involved, when they claimed to be basing eligibility on test scores, then the dept. has some additional legal problems.

Every work setting has a heirarchal structure.

 

[Jiro]

Here is the flaw in your logic: The fire dept. did rely on test scores to decide eligibility for promotion. That is the whole point behind the lawsuit.

and it was thrown out. It's simply to make their job easier to narrow down the list. It's extremely doubtful that the test score is used as their major deciding factor in choosing the senior staff.

And yes, the exam had both written and oral portions. They were weighted differently, however.

If there is office politics and connections involved, when they claimed to be basing eligibility on test scores, then the dept. has some additional legal problems.

it's actually so cute.... naivete

 

[Jiro]

Every work setting has a heirarchal structure.

and there is a huge difference in how it is structured. Some is more serious than others. Some is very casual about it. The structure is also different - it's either linear or pyramidal. Based on your posts - sounds like your work experience is mostly a very casual hierarchical structure and/or flat organization.

nothing wrong about it but it's very apparent in your inability to understand this specific case. This has been going on for thousand of years.

 

[jillio]

and it was thrown out. It's simply to make their job easier to narrow down the list. It's extremely doubtful that the test score is used as their major deciding factor in choosing the senior staff.


it's actually so cute.... naivete

No,the test scores were thrown out because it was shown that they were invalid in deciding promotion based on inherent flaws in the validity. The intent of using the test was to decide who was eligible for promotion based on the test scores. Decisions made using the test scores were also revoked.

Aww...its so cute...ignorance.

 

[jillio]

and there is a huge difference in how it is structured. Some is more serious than others. Some is very casual about it. The structure is also different - it's either linear or pyramidal. Based on your posts - sounds like your work experience is mostly a very casual hierarchical structure and/or flat organization.

nothing wrong about it but it's very apparent in your inability to understand this specific case. This has been going on for thousand of years.

It is still heirarchal. If you are using a heirarchal structure to determine eligibility for promotion, it doesn't matter one iota whether it is linear or triagular. It is still promotion eligibility decided on heirarchy. And I've got 35 years worth of work experience under my belt. All work settings are heirarchal. In fact, I challenge you to find any group setting that does not contain a heirarchy.

 

[Jiro]

No,the test scores were thrown out because it was shown that they were invalid in deciding promotion based on inherent flaws in the validity. The intent of using the test was to decide who was eligible for promotion based on the test scores. Decisions made using the test scores were also revoked.

Aww...its so cute...ignorance.

no..... it was thrown out because "New Haven Refused to Promote Firefighters Who Scored Highest on Exam!"

again - office politic. I've never ever ever ever heard of any organization using test score as a deciding factor in choosing the senior staff. Have you?

 

[Jiro]

It is still heirarchal. If you are using a heirarchal structure to determine eligibility for promotion, it doesn't matter one iota whether it is linear or triagular. It is still promotion eligibility decided on heirarchy. And I've got 35 years worth of work experience under my belt. All work settings are heirarchal. In fact, I challenge you to find any group setting that does not contain a heirarchy.

I see you've pulled out another "I-know-better-than-you" card. and you've made a mistake. I PRECISELY said - "Based on your posts - sounds like your work experience is mostly a very casual hierarchical structure and/or flat organization."

Show me in the post where I've said that any group setting has NO hierarchical structure.

btw - it does matter one iota whether or not if it's linear or pyramidal. Again - as I've said before.... it's very apparent in your inability to understand this specific case because you do not have much or any experience in this very formal hierarchical structure setting (aka bureaucracy)

 

[jillio]

no..... it was thrown out because "New Haven Refused to Promote Firefighters Who Scored Highest on Exam!"

again - office politic. I've never ever ever ever heard of any organization using test score as a deciding factor in choosing the senior staff. Have you?

They were using the test scores to decide eligibility.

The test scores were thrown out because only white firefighters scored in the highest ranges, leading to questions about the validity of the testing instrument.

 

[jillio]

I see you've pulled out another "I-know-better-than-you" card. and you've made a mistake. I PRECISELY said - "Based on your posts - sounds like your work experience is mostly a very casual hierarchical structure and/or flat organization."

Show me in the post where I've said that any group setting has NO hierarchical structure.

btw - it does matter one iota whether or not if it's linear or pyramidal. Again - as I've said before.... it's very apparent in your inability to understand this specific case because you do not have much or any experience in this very formal hierarchical structure setting (aka bureaucracy)

And exactly what experience do you have, Mr. Webmaster for a university?

And heirarchy is heirarchy when it is used to decide promotion. If heirarchy is the criterion, it matters not whether it is linear or triangular.

The only one failing to understand this specific case is yourself. Heirarchy doesn't have anything to do with this specific case. Invalid test scores is the issue. They weren't promoting using heirarchy as the criterion. They were deciding eligibility based on test scores. Had heirarchy been the criterion, there never would have been a lawwuit. Duh.

 

[Jiro]

They were using the test scores to decide eligibility.

this is no brainer.... the colleges won't accept the applications lower than xxx score. The DMV won't issue the permit to those who scored lower than minimum. Same thing for firemen - it's simply to weed out those who scored low.

The test scores were thrown out because only white firefighters scored in the highest ranges, leading to questions about the validity of the testing instrument.

and I'm looking forward to hearing the decision from higher court to state that this test is racially-unbiased. This case is nothing but a farce.

 

[jillio]

this is no brainer.... the colleges won't accept the applications lower than xxx score. The DMV won't issue the permit to those who scored lower than minimum. Same thing for firemen - it's simply to weed out those who scored low.

And the tests you speak of above have been norm referenced. The test used in this situation hadn't.

and I'm looking forward to hearing the decision from higher court to state that this test is racially-unbiased. This case is nothing but a farce.

Two lower courts, including the State Supreme Court, disagree with you. They both dismissed the white firefighters lawsuit.

 

[Jiro]

Two lower courts, including the State Supreme Court, disagree with you. They both dismissed the white firefighters lawsuit.

I'm sorry but the case at State Supreme Court isn't finished. The decision will be out this summer. Where in the world did you get the info about Supreme Court dismissing the case? Did you have an insider information at Supreme Court or something?

furthermore.......

U.S. Supreme Court Hears New Haven Firefighters' Reverse Discrimination Arguments

Karen Lee Torre, the New Haven lawyer who sued on behalf of the firefighters in 2004, reacted sharply to the suggestion that the test results were flawed because the examination was somehow biased.

Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. seemed to agree when he remarked with sarcasm during his questioning that the only criticism of the test came from an executive with a competing test preparation firm. The competitor testified at a civil service board hearing in New Haven that he thought he could design a better test, Alito pointed out.

"The only thing wrong with the test is that it didn't suit the political agenda of the mayor of New Haven," Torre said Wednesday on the courthouse plaza.

Torre's reference to Mayor John DeStefano resurrected an element of the lawsuit that has been little heard from since the case reached the lofty, legal realm of the Supreme Court. One of the white firefighters' claims is that DeStefano jettisoned the promotional exam to satisfy influential, black political supporters who were pushing for a greater black presence in the fire department's officer ranks.

simple - this case is nothing but a farce. just one of your typical Al Sharpton-like rage.

 

[Daredevel7]

You guys do realize that the "rule of three" means that they can choose from the top 3 scorers and promote them to the top positions? So it's not JUST eligibility, but they also take the top scorers to promote. Unfortunately, even with multiple positions, the black people can't even make the cut.

I just put the test results in an excel spreadsheet. 50-50 would STILL not get any blacks promoted. If the oral is 60% and the written is 40% instead, they MIGHT get promoted for lieutenant only . Fair or not? It's weird how arbitrary weights on a test can make such a difference.

 

[Jiro]

And exactly what experience do you have, Mr. Webmaster for a university?

you seem to think that it's my first work experience and it also seems that you have a rather unhealthy fascination about my job position. Are you just jealous that my salary is higher than yours? To answer your silly question.... for over 10 years, I've worked for small businesses including start-up dot.com, major pharmaceutical company, major hospital, universities, and couple of freelancer jobs.... and it's not always a webmaster job.

*hint - my "webmaster" job is a senior position. yes I serve & speak & function as adviser/consultant for this university.* Coincidentally, this university is known for business/emergency management and counseling service so yes I think I know a thing or two about this a bit better than you (except counseling service ).* so... are you telling me that a rape counselor like you know this better than me?

And heirarchy is heirarchy when it is used to decide promotion. If heirarchy is the criterion, it matters not whether it is linear or triangular.

The only one failing to understand this specific case is yourself. Heirarchy doesn't have anything to do with this specific case. Invalid test scores is the issue.

and that's why I said it's very apparent in your inability to understand this "bureaucracy" politic... simply because of your simplistic comment "hierarchy is hierarchy"

 

[Daredevel7]

I am an engineer, therefore I know about racism better than y'all!!!!!!

 

[Jiro]

You guys do realize that the "rule of three" means that they can choose from the top 3 scorers and promote them to the top positions? So it's not JUST eligibility, but they also take the top scorers to promote. Unfortunately, even with multiple positions, the black people can't even make the cut.

I just put the test results in an excel spreadsheet. 50-50 would STILL not get any blacks promoted. If the oral is 60% and the written is 40% instead, they MIGHT get promoted for lieutenant only . Fair or not? It's weird how arbitrary weights on a test can make such a difference.

that's why the test is not a deciding factor. On the book, it may be so but in office politic - it's not. If the world revolves around the idea where the nominee is picked based on test score.... then GWB wouldn't be our President, eh? McCain wouldn't be a US Navy Captain either due to his underachieving status at Naval Academy

 

[Jiro]

I am an engineer, therefore I know about racism better than y'all!!!!!!

you mean sexism

 

[Daredevel7]

you mean sexism

Too true......

 

[Jiro]

Too true......

I was an engineering major at Virginia Tech for a while. You know what's funny? A engineering class or club with 1-2 pretty girl tends to fare better (better attendance record, better testing score, better mood) than a class with no girls.