36 Republican Men Vote Against Fair Pay!

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If their amendments had passed, and then they still voted against it, you'd be correct.

What happened to- they could have amended it? :lol:

If one amendment doesn't pass, then they go back and make a second amended document and present it again.

Not much in favor of women's rights in any given situation, are you?

Again, what would be your solution? To continue to support the fact that women make .70 on the dollar when compared to men doing the same job?
 
Anything that gives women Fair Pay.

They could've have been pro-active about the situation but choose not to. Thus making them look bad in obtaining equal rights for equal pay among women.
I don't know everything they did do and didn't do. But neither do you. Considering how little influence they have now and the downsides of this bill, I would be very hesitant to assign bad motives. If I were a senator, I would vote no on this bill and you would be here talking about how I don't care about women. In reality, it would be partly because I know this would hurt women. I care more about women than about my image of caring about women. However, if I were more concerned for my image of caring for women, I would vote yes, even though I know it's really hurting women. That would make me a hypocrite.

Change the main text of the bill. What would be your solution? Continue to justify the fact that women make .70 cents on the dollar when compared to men doing equal work?
I would probably propose an alternative bill that extends the statute of limitations to two or three years. That gives women a better opportunity to combat pay discrimination and limits the opportunity for abuse.
 
I don't know everything they did do and didn't do. But neither do you. Considering how little influence they have now and the downsides of this bill, I would be very hesitant to assign bad motives. If I were a senator, I would vote no on this bill and you would be here talking about how I don't care about women. In reality, it would be partly because I know this would hurt women. I care more about women than about my image of caring about women. However, if I were more concerned for my image of caring for women, I would vote yes, even though I know it's really hurting women. That would make me a hypocrite.


I would probably propose an alternative bill that extends the statute of limitations to two or three years. That gives women a better opportunity to combat pay discrimination and limits the opportunity for abuse.

Exactly how will equal pay for equal work hurt women? I am very interested in your logic on this one. BTW, I agree that the statute of limitations should be restricted to a specific time period. However, I fail to see how the amendment's intent has any negative effect on women.
 
Well, give them 48DDs and let them parade the kitchen naked & barefoot, pregnant with 3 screaming kids with dirty diapers and have to cook a feast for a perfectionist wife who comes home in less than half an hour to a very messy house!

You bet your sweet hiney they will be reconsidering fair pay and throw in extra months of maternity leave!
 
:laugh2:
Well, give them 48DDs and let them parade the kitchen naked & barefoot, pregnant with 3 screaming kids with dirty diapers and have to cook a feast for a perfectionist wife who comes home in less than half an hour to a very messy house!

You bet your sweet hiney they will be reconsidering fair pay and throw in extra months of maternity leave!

Too true, Mrs. B, too true!
 
Well, give them 48DDs and let them parade the kitchen naked & barefoot, pregnant with 3 screaming kids with dirty diapers and have to cook a feast for a perfectionist wife who comes home in less than half an hour to a very messy house!

You bet your sweet hiney they will be reconsidering fair pay and throw in extra months of maternity leave!

:laugh2:
 
I don't know everything they did do and didn't do. But neither do you. Considering how little influence they have now and the downsides of this bill, I would be very hesitant to assign bad motives. If I were a senator, I would vote no on this bill and you would be here talking about how I don't care about women. In reality, it would be partly because I know this would hurt women. I care more about women than about my image of caring about women. However, if I were more concerned for my image of caring for women, I would vote yes, even though I know it's really hurting women. That would make me a hypocrite.


I would probably propose an alternative bill that extends the statute of limitations to two or three years. That gives women a better opportunity to combat pay discrimination and limits the opportunity for abuse.

Exactly how will equal pay for equal work hurt women? I am very interested in your logic on this one. BTW, I agree that the statute of limitations should be restricted to a specific time period. However, I fail to see how the amendment's intent has any negative effect on women.

I'm curious to know too.
 
Exactly how will equal pay for equal work hurt women? I am very interested in your logic on this one. BTW, I agree that the statute of limitations should be restricted to a specific time period. However, I fail to see how the amendment's intent has any negative effect on women.
It's not the intent of the law that will hurt women. It's the real-life ramifications of the law that will hurt women. I explained why in a previous post.
It would also give them an incentive to hire fewer women- something which is illegal, but hard to prove. That's where the law of unintended consequences comes in.
When you open up the potential for frivolous lawsuits, companies are going to do things to protect themselves. That's just a reality. Like you said, the statute of limitations should be restricted. This bill would make it virtually unrestricted. That's why it's a bad bill.
 
It's not the intent of the law that will hurt women. It's the real-life ramifications of the law that will hurt women. I explained why in a previous post.

When you open up the potential for frivolous lawsuits, companies are going to do things to protect themselves. That's just a reality. Like you said, the statute of limitations should be restricted. This bill would make it virtually unrestricted. That's why it's a bad bill.

Exactly what real life ramifications of equal pay for equal work will hurt women? Especially since the vast majority of single parent homes are headed by women?

Making .70 to the dollar when compared to men doing the same work is what hurts women.
 
If one amendment doesn't pass, then they go back and make a second amended document and present it again.

Not much in favor of women's rights in any given situation, are you?

Again, what would be your solution? To continue to support the fact that women make .70 on the dollar when compared to men doing the same job?


I see you haven't read up on what they actually did. They presented amendments. They were defeated. They were not going to vote for the bill w/out those amendments. That has nothing to do with them being in favor of "women's rights" or not. Again..if they'd have had the amendments pass..and then they still voted against the bill...you'd have a point.
 
I see you haven't read up on what they actually did. They presented amendments. They were defeated. They were not going to vote for the bill w/out those amendments. That has nothing to do with them being in favor of "women's rights" or not. Again..if they'd have had the amendments pass..and then they still voted against the bill...you'd have a point.

Then, quite obviously, you are seeing incorrectly.

And this bill most definately has to do with women's rights. I take it you are a male.:roll:
 
Exactly what real life ramifications of equal pay for equal work will hurt women? Especially since the vast majority of single parent homes are headed by women?

Making .70 to the dollar when compared to men doing the same work is what hurts women.
Jillio, you need to separate the intent of the policy with the policy itself. The reason is because policies often have consequences that were not part of the intent. In fact, it's not uncommon for a policy to do the exact opposite of what it intended. Read again what I said in posts 11 and 28. It's not the intent of the policy that will hurt women. It's the consequences that were not intended that will hurt women.

If you notice, we really don't have a disagreement here. We both believe that women should have legal recourse when they're victims of gender pay discrimination. We both also believe there should be a reasonable statue of limitations.
 
Jillio, you need to separate the intent of the policy with the policy itself. The reason is because policies often have consequences that were not part of the intent. In fact, it's not uncommon for a policy to do the exact opposite of what it intended. Read again what I said in posts 11 and 28. It's not the intent of the policy that will hurt women. It's the consequences that were not intended that will hurt women.

If you notice, we really don't have a disagreement here. We both believe that women should have legal recourse when they're victims of gender pay discrimination. We both also believe there should be a reasonable statue of limitations.

No, I have separated intent from policy itself. And if an extended statute of limitations is what it takes to achieve equal pay for equal work, then so be it. I would prefer that the statute of limitations be narrower, but will take this over nothing.

I still fail to see how the unintended consequences will hurt women. Benefits far and away outweigh any unintended consequences.
 
No, I have separated intent from policy itself. And if an extended statute of limitations is what it takes to achieve equal pay for equal work, then so be it. I would prefer that the statute of limitations be narrower, but will take this over nothing.

I still fail to see how the unintended consequences will hurt women. Benefits far and away outweigh any unintended consequences.
So our only remaining disagreement is on the importance of the unintended consequences. Now I'm curious- if this law results in higher female unemployment, then what? Will we need new legislation to "solve" that problem? Will those who oppose that law because of its unintended consequences be painted as chauvinist jerks who don't care about female unemployment?
 
So our only remaining disagreement is on the importance of the unintended consequences. Now I'm curious- if this law results in higher female unemployment, then what? Will we need new legislation to "solve" that problem? Will those who oppose that law because of its unintended consequences be painted as chauvinist jerks who don't care about female unemployment?

Please show me the mechanisms by which this bill will result in higher female unemployment. "if" doesn't get it. If a bullfrog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass every time he tries to fly.
 
sorry but I had to chuckle about that bullfrog.
 
Please show me the mechanisms by which this bill will result in higher female unemployment. "if" doesn't get it. If a bullfrog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass every time he tries to fly.
I answered that question briefly in posts 11 and 28. There's a longer answer in the article I provided in post 11.

Perversely, the Ledbetter Act may actually harm those it is intended to protect. In making employment decisions, businesses would consider the potential legal risks of hiring women, minorities, and others who might later bring lawsuits against them and, as a result, hire fewer of these individuals. Even though this discrimination would violate the law, it would be difficult for rejected applicants to prove. Other employers might simply fire employees protected by Title VII--and especially those who are vocal about their rights under the law--to put a cap on their legal liabilities. Again, this would be illegal, but difficult to prove.
The Ledbetter Act: Sacrificing Justice for "Fair" Pay

This isn't just something cooked up in theory land. There's experience to back this up. For instance, in France, they implemented job security laws to make it difficult to fire someone on their first job. The intent was to lower youth unemployment. The consequence was the exact opposite- youth unemployment went up. Employers didn't want to hire young people because it was too risky- if it didn't work out, it was too difficult for the employers to get rid of them. It's pretty simple- if you make a transaction riskier, you will get fewer transactions, and that includes employer-employee transactions.

This law opens up the potential for frivolous lawsuits (hence the trial lawyers' push for it) and thus increases the risk of employing women. I think it will be more of a problem with small companies because they don't have the resources to defend themselves that large companies have. They bear a greater risk because a lawsuit would be much more devastating to them.
 
I answered that question briefly in posts 11 and 28. There's a longer answer in the article I provided in post 11.


The Ledbetter Act: Sacrificing Justice for "Fair" Pay

This isn't just something cooked up in theory land. There's experience to back this up. For instance, in France, they implemented job security laws to make it difficult to fire someone on their first job. The intent was to lower youth unemployment. The consequence was the exact opposite- youth unemployment went up. Employers didn't want to hire young people because it was too risky- if it didn't work out, it was too difficult for the employers to get rid of them. It's pretty simple- if you make a transaction riskier, you will get fewer transactions, and that includes employer-employee transactions.

This law opens up the potential for frivolous lawsuits (hence the trial lawyers' push for it) and thus increases the risk of employing women. I think it will be more of a problem with small companies because they don't have the resources to defend themselves that large companies have. They bear a greater risk because a lawsuit would be much more devastating to them.

Quite frankly, that simply does not make sense. If one is giving equal pay to women, then it is no more of a risk to employ them than it is to employ men. The risk in is attempting to pay a lesser amount to women when qualifications and job are equal. If one is, indeed, engaging in that practice, then the lawsuit is not frivolous, but substantiated.
 
I am glad Obama signed this into law. Bluntly put, if you cannot pay your employees equal wages, you should not be in business.
 
Quite frankly, that simply does not make sense. If one is giving equal pay to women, then it is no more of a risk to employ them than it is to employ men. The risk in is attempting to pay a lesser amount to women when qualifications and job are equal. If one is, indeed, engaging in that practice, then the lawsuit is not frivolous, but substantiated.
The risk is also in the potential for frivolous lawsuits. One of the purposes of statutes of limitations is to protect from frivolous lawsuits. If they extend the statute of limitations to just a few years, that will allow more lawsuits of merit through while still blocking many frivolous lawsuits. Extending the statute of limitations indefinitely may allow a few more good lawsuits through, but will result in a lot more frivolous lawsuits.

That's the short explanation. Here's the long one.
Justice Story best articulated the most common rationale for the statute of limitations: "It is a wise and beneficial law, not designed merely to raise a presumption of payment of a just debt, from lapse of time, but to afford security against stale demands, after the true state of the transaction may have been forgotten, or be incapable of explanation, by reason of the death or removal of witnesses."[9]

Indeed, Ledbetter itself illustrates this function. Different treatment, such as pay disparities, may be easy to prove even after much time has lapsed, because the kinds of facts at issue are often documented and, indeed, are rarely in dispute. More contentious, however, is the defendant's discriminatory intent, which Title VII requires in addition to proof of disparate treatment. The evidence proving intent can be subtle--for example, "whether a long-past performance evaluation … was so far off the mark that a sufficient inference of discriminatory intent can be drawn."[10] With the passage of time, witnesses' memories may fade, stripping their accounts of the details necessary to resolve the claim. Evidence may be lost or discarded. Indeed, witnesses may disappear or perish--the supervisor whom Ledbetter accused of misconduct had died by the time of trial. Sorting out the subtleties of human relationships a decade or more in the past may be an impossible task for parties and the courts, one at which the defendant, who did not instigate the suit, will be at a particular disadvantage. This seems to have been the case in Ledbetter.

Statutes of limitations, in contrast, require a plaintiff to bring his or her claim earlier, when evidence is still fresh and the defendant has a fair chance of mustering it to mount a defense. In this way, statutes of limitations also serve to prevent fraudulent claims whose veracity cannot be checked due to passage of time.

Second, statutes of limitations also help to effectuate the purposes of law. They encourage plaintiffs to diligently prosecute their claims, thereby achieving the law's remedial purpose. This is particularly the case for statutes such as those forbidding discrimination in employment practices, where Congress has created causes of action to supplement government enforcement actions. Litigation under such statutes is, in part, a public good, because the plaintiff in a meritorious suit secures justice not just for himself but for similarly situated victims, as well as the public at large, which has expressed its values through the law. Anti-discrimination law is the archetypical example of an area where private suits can promote far broader good. Other victims and the public are best served when workers who believe they have been subject to discrimination have the incentive to investigate the possible unlawful conduct, document it, and then challenge it in a timely fashion.[11] This was an explicit goal of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, whose drafters reasoned that the short limitations period and mandatory EEOC administrative process would lead most discrimination complaints to be resolved quickly, through cooperation and voluntary compliance.[12]

Third, time limits on filing lawsuits prevent strategic behavior by plaintiffs. In some cases, plaintiffs may wait for evidence favorable to the defense to disappear or be discarded, for memories to fade and witnesses to move on, before bringing claims. Particularly under laws that allow damages continuing violations or punitive damages, plaintiffs may face the incentive to keep quiet about violations as the potential pool of damages grows. Concerns that plaintiffs will game the system in this way are so prevalent that an entire doctrine of judge-created law, known as "laches," exists to combat certain of these abuses.[13] Laches, however, is applied inconsistently, and courts often decline its exercise in enforcing statutory rights. A limitations period puts a limit on the extent to which plaintiffs can game the law by delaying suit.

Fourth, time-limiting the right to sue furthers efficiency. Valuable claims are likely to be investigated and prosecuted promptly, while most of dubious merit or value are "allowed to remain neglected."[14] Thus, "the lapse of years without any attempt to enforce a demand, creates, therefore, a presumption against its original validity, or that it has ceased to subsist."[15] Statutes of limitations, then, are one way that our justice system focuses its limited resources on the most valuable cases, maximizing its contribution to the public good.

Finally, there is an intrinsic value to repose. It promotes certainty and stability. Putting a deadline on claims protects a business's or individual's settled expectations, such as accounting statements or income. At some point, surprises from the past, in the form of lawsuits, cease to be possible. As with adverse possession of land, the law recognizes that, though a wrong may have been done, over time certainty of rights gains value.

For these important reasons, statutes of limitation are ubiquitous in the law and have been since ancient Roman times.[16] Limitations periods necessarily close the courthouse doors to some potentially worthwhile claims--an outcome so harsh that it would be "pure evil," observed Oliver Wendell Holmes, if it were not so essential to the operation of law.[17] That a single good claim has been barred, then, proves not that the deadline for suit is unfair or unwise but only that justice cannot provide a remedy in every case.

...

In these ways, the Ledbetter Act would allow cases asserting extremely tenuous links between alleged discrimination and differences in pay, which may result from any number of non-discriminatory factors, such as experience.[23] Employers would be forced to defend cases where plaintiffs present evidence of a present wage gap, allegations of long-ago discrimination, and a story connecting the two. As wage differences between employees performing similar functions are rampant--consider how many factors may be relevant to making a wage determination--a flood of cases alleging past discrimination resulting in present disparity would likely follow passage. In addition to investigatory and legal expenses, employers will face the risk of punitive damages and the difficulty of rebutting assertions of discriminatory acts from years or decades ago.
The Ledbetter Act: Sacrificing Justice for "Fair" Pay
 
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