Kim Jong II is dead - Page 3

jillio · 12-19-2011, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

We can all thank Truman for this mess.

Huh? You need to explain that one.

**Jiro** · 12-19-2011, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

We can all thank Truman for this mess.

you wanted him to nuke North Korea and China?

**Banjo** · 12-19-2011, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Huh? You need to explain that one.

Didn't the Soviets invade Korea leading to the Korean War?

jillio · 12-19-2011, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

Didn't the Soviets invade Korea leading to the Korean War?

That's the way I was told it occurred.

Steinhauer · 12-19-2011, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

Discuss away? In my opinion, It's kim jon il. not the second. not the ii.

Too bad he wasn't Kim Jong Healthy.

Must be from eating at the House of Flu

Steinhauer · 12-19-2011, 09:51 PM

Of all the people most responsible for the Cold War, Truman was at numero uno.

jillio · 12-19-2011, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Of all the people most responsible for the Cold War, Truman was at numero uno.

Elaborate, please. Are you referring to the Cold War with Russia or the Korean War? How was Truman the most responsible for the Cold War?

**Jiro** · 12-19-2011, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

Didn't the Soviets invade Korea leading to the Korean War?

sort of. Korean War was more like a proxy war by superpowers during Cold War - USA vs. USSR.

Steinhauer · 12-19-2011, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Elaborate, please. Are you referring to the Cold War with Russia or the Korean War? How was Truman the most responsible for the Cold War?

George F. Kennan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

Soon after his concepts had become US policy, Kennan began to criticize the foreign policies that he had seemingly helped launch. Subsequently, prior to the end of 1948, Kennan was confident the state of affairs in Western Europe had developed to the point where positive dialogue could commence with the Soviet Union. His proposals were discounted by the Truman administration and Kennan's influence was marginalized, particularly after Dean Acheson was appointed Secretary of State in 1949. Soon thereafter, U.S. Cold War strategy assumed a more assertive and militaristic quality, causing Kennan to lament over what he believed was as an aberration of his previous assessments.

Quote:

Kennan's influence rapidly declined under Secretary of State Dean Acheson, the successor of the ailing George Marshall in 1949 and 1950.[40][41] Acheson did not regard the Soviet 'threat' as chiefly political, and he saw the Berlin blockade starting in June 1948, the first Soviet test of a nuclear weapon in August 1949, the Communist revolution in China a month later and the beginning of the Korean War in June 1950 as evidence of his view. Truman and Acheson decided to delineate the Western sphere of influence and to create a system of alliances backed by conventional and nuclear weapons.

Paul H. Nitze and U.S. Cold War Strategy from Truman to Reagan

Truman ignored George.

**Banjo** · 12-19-2011, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Of all the people most responsible for the Cold War, Truman was at numero uno.

Um... it's somewhat more complicated than that. During the World War II, there were quite a lot of tension between the nations. Russia had suffered a great deal of casualties compared to the USA. I believe it was something like 60 times the casualties of American military. As a result, the Soviets made sure that they would never be invaded again or weakened by any other rivals.

Also, all of the other rivals were greatly weakened or destroyed in the war. The USA and the Soviets were the remaining superpower countries. So it was hardly a surprise that the USA and Soviets became enemies. The Cold War has a complicated history, the history textbooks in both countries are grossly slanted.

**Jiro** · 12-19-2011, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

George F. Kennan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paul H. Nitze and U.S. Cold War Strategy from Truman to Reagan

Truman ignored George.

what do you believe what should have been done? Truman should not get involved and let Koreans deal with it themselves?

**TWA** · 12-19-2011, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

George F. Kennan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paul H. Nitze and U.S. Cold War Strategy from Truman to Reagan

Truman ignored George.

tl;dnr

Just spit it out. Jeeze We don't have time to go on a cat and mouse chase through wikipedia and teh internets.

Steinhauer · 12-19-2011, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

what do you believe what should have been done? Truman should not get involved and let Koreans deal with it themselves?

I think you would be the best person to answer that question Jiro.

**Banjo** · 12-19-2011, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I think you would be the best person to answer that question Jiro.

Why? Because his parents are Korean?

**Jiro** · 12-19-2011, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I think you would be the best person to answer that question Jiro.

I'm asking for your opinion. so your answer is?

Steinhauer · 12-19-2011, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

Why? Because his parents are Korean?

Because he knows more about it than anyone else here.

**Jiro** · 12-19-2011, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Because he knows more about it than anyone else here.

this is not about fact-finding. this is about your disagreement with Truman's decision.

so in your opinion, what should have happened? leave it alone and "not my problem"?

jillio · 12-19-2011, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

sort of. Korean War was more like a proxy war by superpowers during Cold War - USA vs. USSR.

Yeah. I believe it was called the first skirmish of the Cold War.

jillio · 12-19-2011, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWriteAlex

tl;dnr

Just spit it out. Jeeze We don't have time to go on a cat and mouse chase through wikipedia and teh internets.

I know. Why can't people just answer a question instead of constantly posting Wiki links? Oh, right...they don't have an answer.

jillio · 12-19-2011, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I think you would be the best person to answer that question Jiro.

He's not the one that made the statement about Truman. You are. Why are you having such a difficult time explaining yourself?

Steinhauer · 12-19-2011, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

He's not the one that made the statement about Truman. You are. Why are you having such a difficult time explaining yourself?

already answered post #69

Not my problem if you can't read. But ... if I answered, you would ask for links ... so I went ahead and answered with links.

Steinhauer · 12-19-2011, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I'm asking for your opinion. so your answer is?

I already stated my opinion - You can blame Truman for this mess.

jillio · 12-19-2011, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

George F. Kennan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paul H. Nitze and U.S. Cold War Strategy from Truman to Reagan

Truman ignored George.

And?

jillio · 12-19-2011, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I already stated my opinion - You can blame Truman for this mess.

Well, I guess you could also blame Donald Duck, but you need to come up with a logical explanation of how and why. You haven't done that. You said you can blame Truman for all this mess, and then went about posting Wiki links. You have yet to explain exactly why or how you would lay all the responsibility on Truman.

jillio · 12-19-2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

already answered post #69

Not my problem if you can't read. But ... if I answered, you would ask for links ... so I went ahead and answered with links.

No, you haven't answered anything. You posted Wiki links. Unless one of those Wiki links is an explanation of how Steinhauer thinks and what logic he is using to come up with his conclusions, your Wiki links explain nothing.

**Jiro** · 12-19-2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

already answered post #69

Not my problem if you can't read. But ... if I answered, you would ask for links ... so I went ahead and answered with links.

"Truman ignored George."

I'm interested in how you came up with that assessment

Quote:

Kennan's influence rapidly declined under Secretary of State Dean Acheson, the successor of the ailing George Marshall in 1949 and 1950.[40][41] Acheson did not regard the Soviet 'threat' as chiefly political, and he saw the Berlin blockade starting in June 1948, the first Soviet test of a nuclear weapon in August 1949, the Communist revolution in China a month later and the beginning of the Korean War in June 1950 as evidence of his view. Truman and Acheson decided to delineate the Western sphere of influence and to create a system of alliances backed by conventional and nuclear weapons.

Quote:

His proposals were discounted by the Truman administration and Kennan's influence was marginalized, particularly after Dean Acheson was appointed Secretary of State in 1949.

don't you think it was Secretary of State Acheson who ignored Kennan, not Truman? Does Kennan report directly to Truman?

jillio · 12-19-2011, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

"Truman ignored George."

I'm interested in how you came up with that assessment

don't you think it was Secretary of State Acheson who ignored Kennan, not Truman? Does Kennan report directly to Truman?

Right. Proposals were discounted by Truman administration, not Truman himself.

Steinhauer · 12-19-2011, 10:26 PM

Quote:

This policy was written as NSC-68, a classified report issued by the United States National Security Council in April 1950 and written by Paul Nitze, Kennan's successor as Director of Policy Planning.[42] Kennan and Charles Bohlen another State Department expert on Russia, fought over the wording of NSC-68, which emerged as the blueprint for waging the Cold War.[43] Kennan rejected the idea that Stalin had a grand design for world conquest implicit in Nitze's report and argued that he actually feared overextending Russian power. Kennan even argued that NSC-68 should not have been drafted at all, as it would make U.S. policies too rigid, simplistic and militaristic. Acheson overruled Kennan and Bohlen, backing up the view of the Soviet menace in NSC-68.[44]

Kennan opposed the building of the hydrogen bomb and the rearmament of Germany, which were policies backed up by the assumptions of NSC-68.[45][46] During the Korean War (which began when North Korea invaded South Korea in June 1950), when rumors started circulating in the State Department that plans were being made to advance beyond the 38th parallel into North Korea, a move that Kennan considered highly dangerous, he engaged in intense arguments with Assistant Secretary of State for the Far East Dean Rusk, who apparently supported Acheson's goal to forcibly unite the Koreas.[47]

Kennan lost influence with Acheson, who in any case relied much less on his staff than Marshall had. Kennan resigned as director of policy planning in December 1949 but stayed in the department as counselor until June 1950.[48] Acheson replaced Kennan with Nitze in January 1950, who was far more comfortable with the calculus of military power. Afterwards, Kennan accepted an appointment as Visitor to the Institute for Advanced Study from fellow moderate Robert Oppenheimer, Director of the Institute.[49]

Despite his influence, Kennan was never really comfortable in government. He always regarded himself as an outsider and had little patience with critics. W. Averell Harriman, the U.S. ambassador in Moscow when Kennan was deputy between 1944 and 1946, remarked that Kennan was "a man who understood Russia but not the United States".[50]

Truman ultimately made the decision to send troops. He is ultimately responsible for ignoring Kennan's warning. He attempted to drive the Soviets out of the Korean Peninsula altogether than drive them past the 38th. Kennan warned against doing that. He warned against forcibly reuniting Korea.

Yes, let the Koreans do it themselves.

jillio · 12-19-2011, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Truman ultimately made the decision to send troops. He is ultimately responsible for ignoring Kennan's warning. He attempted to drive the Soviets out of the Korean Peninsula altogether than drive them past the 38th. Kennan warned against doing that. He warned against forcibly reuniting Korea.

Yes, let the Koreans do it themselves.

Once again, you are talking about the Truman administration.. Acheson and Rusk, not Truman.

**Jiro** · 12-19-2011, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Truman ultimately made the decision to send troops. He is ultimately responsible for ignoring Kennan's warning. He attempted to drive the Soviets out of the Korean Peninsula altogether than drive them past the 38th. Kennan warned against doing that. He warned against forcibly reuniting Korea.

but... you're not making any sense. Are you saying that Kennan reports directly to Truman and Truman disregarded his assessment? All I see from your sources is that Kennan reports to Acheson and Acheson was the one who ignored him and continued to advise Truman without including Kennan's assessment since Acheson was the Secretary of State who reports directly to President.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Yes, let the Koreans do it themselves.

that's fine. I respect your opinion on that issue.

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12-19-2011, 09:51 PM	#66 (permalink)
Steinhauer Banned Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8,191 Blog Entries: 1	Of all the people most responsible for the Cold War, Truman was at numero uno.