Irony of ironies, Gore's hometown Nashville Breaks 1877 Cold Temp Record...

kokonut · 07-22-2009, 12:06 AM

Coolest July 21 recorded in Nashville as cool wave continues in Tenn. - WHNT

Also, related news. The Next Ice Age Now reported that there were record low temperatures recorded in 31 states this month. 256 new record low temperatures were either set or tied nationally.
Record low temperatures in 21 states

And parts of Michigan are up to 7 degrees below the previous record!

Blame the sun! It's energy output is reaching its solar minimum in it's solar cycle on energy output (i.e. the number of sunspots).
http://solarscience.auditblogs.com/2...his-quiet-sun/
Sun Entering Weakest Cycle Since 1928 - US News and World Report
SPACE.com -- Sun's Strange Lull Explained
SPACE.com -- The Sun Has Spots, Finally

Are we going see very cold and early winters over the next few years or so?

**sequoias** · 07-22-2009, 12:12 AM

Ummm...it's hot here and been running about average here, high in the 80's in Western WA and 90's and 100s in East WA. I don't think it's caused by the sun, but caused by the strong El Nino or something like that.

kokonut · 07-22-2009, 12:36 AM

The sun always drive the climate. It's the main driver. Without it, Earth would be a completely uninhabitable, iceball of a planet. When energy output from the sun drops it affects how climate behaves. There are other factors as well such as a regional high pressure where there is little opportunity for cloud formation to occur. Besides, July and August are the hottest months for Washington. I live there, too.
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/wa/wa.90.html

**sequoias** · 07-22-2009, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

The sun always drive the climate. It's the main driver. Without it, Earth would be a completely uninhabitable, iceball of a planet. When energy output from the sun drops it affects how climate behaves. There are other factors as well such as a regional high pressure where there is little opportunity for cloud formation to occur. Besides, July and August are the hottest months for Washington. I live there, too.
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/wa/wa.90.html

That was not my point. The point is that strong El Nino is causing the climate to change for this year causing record lows in other regions while it's normal in other states. I don't think it's the sun spots causing the other states to have record lows.

It has been kinda warm and dry here in Washington state, that's one of the sign of El Nino year. We are possibility gonna have a drier and warmer than normal winter this year. That doesn't look good for snowpack in the mountains.

**Foxrac** · 07-22-2009, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

That was not my point. The point is that strong El Nino is causing the climate to change for this year causing record lows in other regions while it's normal in other states. I don't think it's the sun spots causing the other states to have record lows.

It has been kinda warm and dry here in Washington state, that's one of the sign of El Nino year. We are possibility gonna have a drier and warmer than normal winter this year. That doesn't look good for snowpack in the mountains.

You made good point, I remember about you did studied about climate alot.

All of kokonut's post are garbage and I'm not going waste my time to read his post.

kokonut · 07-22-2009, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

That was not my point. The point is that strong El Nino is causing the climate to change for this year causing record lows in other regions while it's normal in other states. I don't think it's the sun spots causing the other states to have record lows.

It has been kinda warm and dry here in Washington state, that's one of the sign of El Nino year. We are possibility gonna have a drier and warmer than normal winter this year. That doesn't look good for snowpack in the mountains.

Um, you need to read up on sunspots. It's not sunspots per se but rather the amount of energy the sun puts out that is manifested in the number of sunspots observed every month. The correlation is there. Increasing energy output of the sun means increasing sunspot which means increasing strength in the magnetic field. The sun's energy is in it's 10 to 15 year cycle minimum right now (see NASA's report - NASA - Deep Solar Minimum ). The sun's energy does have an effect on climate and its circulation as well as changing strength in the sun's magnetic field that can impact incoming cosmic rays on the atmosphere helping produce more clouds.

Sun spot cycle impacting global warming and cooling

Again, the sun is what drives the climate. Where do you think wind comes from? How does the ocean warm? The land? How does cooling work? Earth is inexplicably tied to the sun. There is NO escape from that fact.

It isn't just El Nino but few other factors that help shape regional climate conditions such as the El Nino/Southern Oscillation (ENSO), La Nina, the Pacific North America pattern, the North Pacific Index and the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. It's more complex than people would realize.

kokonut · 07-22-2009, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxrac

You made good point, I remember about you did studied about climate alot.

All of kokonut's post are garbage and I'm not going waste my time to read his post.

A little whiny aren't we?

Hwy99 · 07-22-2009, 11:53 PM

The Sun is not the only thing that make our temperature, but the water, mountains, etc does too as well. It's cool 70's at the beach in Washington while it's at 90's in my area (Vancouver, Washington) was because of the water at there.

Good example, Greenland. People cannot live in the inner Greenland because it is very cold as hell and very deep snow in the inner so people in Greenland have to live near the water as possible to keep their temperature moderate.

Fairbanks, Alaska get -50's at the winters while they get 100's in the summers, which is much cold than Barrow, Alaska. It's because Fairbanks is in middle of valley with mountains around the city while Barrow is on very flat area with lot of waters.

It is depends on the geography, mostly.

kokonut · 07-23-2009, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuyoPiyo

The Sun is not the only thing that make our temperature, but the water, mountains, etc does too as well. It's cool 70's at the beach in Washington while it's at 90's in my area (Vancouver, Washington) was because of the water at there.

Good example, Greenland. People cannot live in the inner Greenland because it is very cold as hell and very deep snow in the inner so people in Greenland have to live near the water as possible to keep their temperature moderate.

Fairbanks, Alaska get -50's at the winters while they get 100's in the summers, which is much cold than Barrow, Alaska. It's because Fairbanks is in middle of valley with mountains around the city while Barrow is on very flat area with lot of waters.

It is depends on the geography, mostly.

Bottom line, once again, the sun is what drives the climate and maintain warm enough temperatures habitable for life. Without it, Earth will simply be a dead, frozen planet. My professional background includes climate and hydrology (ie water science). So, take it with the understanding that we cannot live without the sun on Earth. Sun helps evaporate the water, help create clouds, temperature differences produce pressure differences and hence winds, and so on. It's the biggest factor in driving our climate. And then you have other smaller factors that come into play, including geography where mountains and elevations have an effect on creating it's own micro-climates.

Secondly, Fairbanks does not get up to into 100s but certainly the 90s during heat waves. A record high of 100 did occur in Alaska but that's about it. Thirdly, Fairbanks has not gotten down into the -50s during the winters but more like -30s to -40s when it comes to regular extremes. It usually get down into the -10s to -20s but certainly not -50s.
Fairbanks

Again, the sun help warms the water plus you have ocean own mass (water is a good heat conductor and holds and stores heat well) and inertia along with Earth's spinning body helps provide the ocean it's circulation. A major factor on how it influences our climate. So, certainly if you think about it you'll understand why Greenland's temperature is much more moderate because it's near a warmer body of ocean water only because the oceans current comes up from the south Atlantic to the north over to Greenland then near the UK and back down south. Same thing for the Pacific ocean and why the ocean's water is colder along the west coast of the United States than along Japan's coastline.
Ocean Motion : Impact : Ocean Conveyor Belt

kokonut · 07-23-2009, 01:19 AM

Oh, btw, it's cooler at the beach on the West coast only because the Pacific Ocean's water is much colder than the Atlantic Ocean on the East Coast at the same latitude. And so inland sea breezes come in off of the Pacific Ocean will be much more cooler than on the East Coast. There's about a 10F degrees differences between the two oceans from around low 80s on the Atlantic Ocean versus low 70s on the Pacific Ocean.
NWS JetStream - The Sea Breeze

flip · 07-23-2009, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Coolest July 21 recorded in Nashville as cool wave continues in Tenn. - WHNT

Also, related news. The Next Ice Age Now reported that there were record low temperatures recorded in 31 states this month. 256 new record low temperatures were either set or tied nationally.
Record low temperatures in 21 states

And parts of Michigan are up to 7 degrees below the previous record!

Blame the sun! It's energy output is reaching its solar minimum in it's solar cycle on energy output (i.e. the number of sunspots).
http://solarscience.auditblogs.com/2...his-quiet-sun/
Sun Entering Weakest Cycle Since 1928 - US News and World Report
SPACE.com -- Sun's Strange Lull Explained
SPACE.com -- The Sun Has Spots, Finally

Are we going see very cold and early winters over the next few years or so?

I am not sure what you are trying to say here? The link you posted, Sun spot cycle impacting global warming and cooling , confirms that "While the NASA study acknowledged the sun's influence on warming and cooling patterns, however it concluded that man had replaced the sun as the primary cause of current warming patterns.".

According to your link, the man have greater impact on abnormalities in the climate at the moment, than the sun? What's really your point?

Hwy99 · 07-23-2009, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Bottom line, once again, the sun is what drives the climate and maintain warm enough temperatures habitable for life. Without it, Earth will simply be a dead, frozen planet. My professional background includes climate and hydrology (ie water science). So, take it with the understanding that we cannot live without the sun on Earth. Sun helps evaporate the water, help create clouds, temperature differences produce pressure differences and hence winds, and so on. It's the biggest factor in driving our climate. And then you have other smaller factors that come into play, including geography where mountains and elevations have an effect on creating it's own micro-climates.

Yes I know that, without Sun, we will not live and don't forget, if there are no Sun, then there will be no planets. I was only saying that the Sun was not the only thing that control our temperature.

Quote:

Secondly, Fairbanks does not get up to into 100s but certainly the 90s during heat waves. A record high of 100 did occur in Alaska but that's about it. Thirdly, Fairbanks has not gotten down into the -50s during the winters but more like -30s to -40s when it comes to regular extremes. It usually get down into the -10s to -20s but certainly not -50s.
Fairbanks

The link says "-40 or colder" that mean probably reached to -50's and I learned that Fairbanks got 100's from the city-data forums where people live in Fairbanks and tell people what's it like there.

However, I do not think you understand my point about Fairbanks, I was comparing the geography of Fairbanks and Barrow, why Fairbanks can be very cold than Barrow in the winter, and hottest than Barrow in the summers.

Quote:

Again, the sun help warms the water plus you have ocean own mass (water is a good heat conductor and holds and stores heat well) and inertia along with Earth's spinning body helps provide the ocean it's circulation. A major factor on how it influences our climate. So, certainly if you think about it you'll understand why Greenland's temperature is much more moderate because it's near a warmer body of ocean water only because the oceans current comes up from the south Atlantic to the north over to Greenland then near the UK and back down south. Same thing for the Pacific ocean and why the ocean's water is colder along the west coast of the United States than along Japan's coastline.
Ocean Motion : Impact : Ocean Conveyor Belt

[/quote]

Ever heard that NASA suspected some planets that are very far from Sun have the ocean under the ice? Notice those gas giants, Jupiter and Saturn? They are not ice, but has huge of atmosphere and liquid, but are still very far from the sun? Wanna know why? Saturn's wind is at 1,000 mph! That explain. Air does control the temperature too and it even keep the liquid remain liquid instead of ice.

And Greenland's towns temperature is not moderately, it's very very cold! When I said moderate, I mean the temperature that people could live at maximum of the cold in Greenland.

The "hot" is not the only the temperature, the cold is the temperature too. We got four main thing, wind, water, soil, and fire. They all affect our temperature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Oh, btw, it's cooler at the beach on the West coast only because the Pacific Ocean's water is much colder than the Atlantic Ocean on the East Coast at the same latitude. And so inland sea breezes come in off of the Pacific Ocean will be much more cooler than on the East Coast. There's about a 10F degrees differences between the two oceans from around low 80s on the Atlantic Ocean versus low 70s on the Pacific Ocean.
NWS JetStream - The Sea Breeze

Exactly, that is how nature the water is.

kokonut · 07-23-2009, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

I am not sure what you are trying to say here? The link you posted, Sun spot cycle impacting global warming and cooling , confirms that "While the NASA study acknowledged the sun's influence on warming and cooling patterns, however it concluded that man had replaced the sun as the primary cause of current warming patterns.".

According to your link, the man have greater impact on abnormalities in the climate at the moment, than the sun? What's really your point?

No. (see here - NASA: Solar cycle may cause “dangerous” global cooling in a few years time Aftermath News ). The sun is still the main driver of climate change, not man's. We're puny in what we can do compared to the size and dynamics of the Earth and Sun. CO2 is never known to be a climate driver. The sun, yes. CO2, no. The 380 ppm CO2 concentration currently means it makes up .038 percent (.00038) of the total volume of atmospheric gases which means 99.96% of the atmosphere is made up of non-CO2 gases. Man contributes about 3% of the total CO2 concentration, about a hundred times less in what it contributes to the atmosphere compared to naturally occuring CO2 emission. Secondly, oxygen-isotope studies involving ocean seacores contain data going back to the era of dinosaurs when CO2 concentrations were up to several thousand ppm and that it was common that CO2 concentration were in the few thousand concentration range over the millions of years. Heck, even green houses where people work have CO2 concentration at around 1000 ppm. The 380 ppm is quite low when compared to ancient climate records.

kokonut · 07-23-2009, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuyoPiyo

Yes I know that, without Sun, we will not live and don't forget, if there are no Sun, then there will be no planets. Incorrect. There are many planets out there across our own Milky Way galaxy that have planets without their nearby star (ie. their sun). I was only saying that the Sun was not the only thing that control our temperature.

The link says "-40 or colder" that mean probably reached to -50's and I learned that Fairbanks got 100's from the city-data forums where people live in Fairbanks and tell people what's it like there.
No, Fairbanks does not get into the 100s. A record high of 100 was recorded near Fairbanks but not in the 100s as if it were a regular occurrence. Not even in the 90s but more often in the 70s and 80s. (see Temperature Frequencies, Days >= 80°F ). And, yes, it has reached -50s and greater but only in terms of record extreme cold with the coldest ever in Fairbanks reaching -62F ( http://www.alaska.com/fairbanks/story/2124.html).It regularly gets down close to -20F in January and not -50F as a regular occurrence.

However, I do not think you understand my point about Fairbanks, I was comparing the geography of Fairbanks and Barrow, why Fairbanks can be very cold than Barrow in the winter, and hottest than Barrow in the summers.
I understood you, however you simply gotten the temperatures wrong. Secondly, from Fairbanks to Barrow is a long way off (500 miles) with Barrow 320 miles inside of the Artic Circle while Fairbanks is not. Latitude differences do make a difference as well.

Ever heard that NASA suspected some planets that are very far from Sun have the ocean under the ice? Notice those gas giants, Jupiter and Saturn? They are not ice, but has huge of atmosphere and liquid, but are still very far from the sun? Not even habitable by animal/humans standard. And yet it's all about volume and with more volume of gases means increasing pressure and with more pressure means greater temperature increase (temp doesn't go up until it starts to reach at a certain pressure. Wanna know why? Saturn's wind is at 1,000 mph! That explain. Air does control the temperature too and it even keep the liquid remain liquid instead of ice. Actually, it's about the transference of heat energy keeping it warm or cold.

And Greenland's towns temperature is not moderately, it's very very cold! The interior is quite cold, sure, and latitude differences but compared to the southern coastal portions of Greenland temperatures are quite moderate when compared to temperature differences inland and to the north (see Greenland - Mean temperatures - Official Greenland Travel Guide) . When I said moderate, I mean the temperature that people could live at maximum of the cold in Greenland. Er, we have people living in Alaska where temperatures routinely plummet to the -30s and even -40s. But in the southern portions of Greenland coastal areas temperature gets as cold as -10F and as warm as in the low 70s. I remain correct about But temperatures in Qaanaaq (home to the most northern community in the world) range from -5 to -30°C (23 to -22°F) in the winter and 5 to 15°C (41 to 59°F) in the summer.

The "hot" is not the only the temperature, the cold is the temperature too. We got four main thing, wind, water, soil, and fire. They all affect our temperature. So do pressure differences, density in a liquid (ie. salinity), albedo, turbidty in water, amount of aerosol or dust in our atmosphere and so on.
Exactly, that is how nature the water is.[/QUOTE]

Hwy99 · 07-23-2009, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Yes I know that, without Sun, we will not live and don't forget, if there are no Sun, then there will be no planets. I was only saying that the Sun was not the only thing that control our temperature.

Source please, I don't see how it works for a planet to be exist without its star except the comets or asteriods, etc.

Quote:

No, Fairbanks does not get into the 100s. A record high of 100 was recorded near Fairbanks but not in the 100s as if it were a regular occurrence. Not even in the 90s but more often in the 70s and 80s. (see Temperature Frequencies, Days >= 80°F ). And, yes, it has reached -50s and greater but only in terms of record extreme cold with the coldest ever in Fairbanks reaching -62F ( http://www.alaska.com/fairbanks/story/2124.html).It regularly gets down close to -20F in January and not -50F as a regular occurrence.

I am not continue to debate about this, it seems are getting out of hand.

Quote:

I understood you, however you simply gotten the temperatures wrong. Secondly, from Fairbanks to Barrow is a long way off (500 miles) with Barrow 320 miles inside of the Artic Circle while Fairbanks is not. Latitude differences do make a difference as well.

Vancouver BC is about 500 miles away from Vancouver WA, and their temperature are not so much different. That is because our geography are almost same, except that Vancouver BC has more water than Vancouver WA. It's not so extremely different like Fairbanks and Barrow. Fairbanks is in middle between of two mountain ranges while Barrow is about 300 miles of flats away from the mountain range and are on the ocean coast.

Quote:

Not even habitable by animal/humans standard. And yet it's all about volume and with more volume of gases means increasing pressure and with more pressure means greater temperature increase (temp doesn't go up until it starts to reach at a certain pressure.

I am not talking about how habitable of Jupiter and Saturn, I was talking about the temperature and the environments, the reason why they are like that and that.

Quote:

Actually, it's about the transference of heat energy keeping it warm or cold.

Jupiter and Saturn are very cold, at about -200 temperature which are more than double than our north and south pole temperature. If there are no winds, then Jupiter and Saturn should not have that so big of atmosphere. Saturn's rings are full of ices and rocks, some of Jupiter and Saturn's moons are frozen.

Quote:

The interior is quite cold, sure, and latitude differences but compared to the southern coastal portions of Greenland temperatures are quite moderate when compared to temperature differences inland and to the north (see Greenland - Mean temperatures - Official Greenland Travel Guide) .

The south portion are probably the only warm during the summer they ever have in entire of Greenland.

Quote:

Er, we have people living in Alaska where temperatures routinely plummet to the -30s and even -40s. But in the southern portions of Greenland coastal areas temperature gets as cold as -10F and as warm as in the low 70s. I remain correct about But temperatures in Qaanaaq (home to the most northern community in the world) range from -5 to -30°C (23 to -22°F) in the winter and 5 to 15°C (41 to 59°F) in the summer.

That is very cold, year-round cold, no warm temperature in Qaanaaq. Low 70's temperature seems not that much warm, even though it was Greenland's southmost area. Now you wonder why there are so few people living in Greenland.

kokonut · 07-23-2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:
Yes I know that, without Sun, we will not live and don't forget, if there are no Sun, then there will be no planets. I was only saying that the Sun was not the only thing that control our temperature. <--YOU WROTE THIS!!!

Source please, I don't see how it works for a planet to be exist without its star except the comets or asteriods, etc.

.

kokonut · 07-23-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuyoPiyo

Vancouver BC is about 500 miles away from Vancouver WA, and their temperature are not so much different. That is because our geography are almost same, except that Vancouver BC has more water than Vancouver WA. It's not so extremely different like Fairbanks and Barrow. Fairbanks is in middle between of two mountain ranges while Barrow is about 300 miles of flats away from the mountain range and are on the ocean coast.

Sure there is a difference, especially on warm days by almost a 30 degrees difference. The cold in Barrow stays around a lot longer due it's longitude. Just take a look.

Barrow - Climatological Data - Barrow
Fairbanks - Climatological Data - Fairbanks International Airport

What's better to compare is between Vancouver, BC and The Dalles, Oregon with both near large body of water and similar elevation.

07-23-2009, 10:45 AM

Global warming doesn't mean the entire globe will get warm. As I understand it global warming will equate to climate changes that could manifest in many different ways.

kokonut · 07-23-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuyoPiyo

Jupiter and Saturn are very cold, at about -200 temperature which are more than double than our north and south pole temperature. If there are no winds, then Jupiter and Saturn should not have that so big of atmosphere. Saturn's rings are full of ices and rocks, some of Jupiter and Saturn's moons are frozen.

Wind is created when there are large enough temperature and/or pressure differences. Heat rises, cold sinks. Heat convection and all that.

The south portion are probably the only warm during the summer they ever have in entire of Greenland.

The warmer ocean has a moderating effect on temperature on coastal towns anywhere in Greenland. Just as the Arctic Ocean has a moderating effect on Barrow, Alaska when compared to Fairbanks during the cold months.

That is very cold, year-round cold, no warm temperature in Qaanaaq. Low 70's temperature seems not that much warm, even though it was Greenland's southmost area. Now you wonder why there are so few people living in Greenland.

Yes, it's cold year round in Qaanaaq, the northern-most town ABOVE the Arctic Circle. Same thing for Barrow, Alaska but it's the ocean's heat that helps moderate the temperatures there in coastal areas. Now, a temperature of 70 might not seem warm to you but if you live in a cold place that 60, 65 or 70 degree weather would be heaven, especially with the sun shining. Temperatures are measured in the shade, not in the full sun. Standing in full sun you will feel considerably warmer than 70s if there is no or little wind.

flip · 07-23-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

No. (see here - NASA: Solar cycle may cause “dangerous” global cooling in a few years time Aftermath News ). The sun is still the main driver of climate change, not man's. We're puny in what we can do compared to the size and dynamics of the Earth and Sun. CO2 is never known to be a climate driver. The sun, yes. CO2, no. The 380 ppm CO2 concentration currently means it makes up .038 percent (.00038) of the total volume of atmospheric gases which means 99.96% of the atmosphere is made up of non-CO2 gases. Man contributes about 3% of the total CO2 concentration, about a hundred times less in what it contributes to the atmosphere compared to naturally occuring CO2 emission. Secondly, oxygen-isotope studies involving ocean seacores contain data going back to the era of dinosaurs when CO2 concentrations were up to several thousand ppm and that it was common that CO2 concentration were in the few thousand concentration range over the millions of years. Heck, even green houses where people work have CO2 concentration at around 1000 ppm. The 380 ppm is quite low when compared to ancient climate records.

So you want to pull back the link you posted, since you write "No", when the link you posted says "Yes"? Now you post another link to a text created by a website named SSRC. Googling the net, it's noticable how real climate scientist laugh at this one man website run by a John L. Casey. He isn't even asked by anyone to give advices on climate, even if he try hard so hard he looks like a Nigerian scammer.

Your rambling on CO2 does not make sense. You even say that, in this year of 2009, with a US president that is worried about level of CO2, that "CO2 is never known to be a climate driver". Seriously, are you on antipsychotic meds?

"222 (Richard): The 'Space and Science Research Center' and John Casey should not be relied on for valid research. I know of Mr. Casey and have checked his credentials and they are not legitimate. He has tried to recruit even me into his band of 'experts'. I would not place any value on the ramblings ofthe press release.

The NASA Panel does NOT do climate work and although I mentioned that I would bring up the matter, I also said that I didn't think anything would happen, because terrestrial climate is not what we do. So, please, do not thank me for this 'non-offer'.

If you want a summeary of what some people believe, there is an article by Joanna Haigh at The Sun and the Earth’s Climate."

flip · 07-23-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Global warming doesn't mean the entire globe will get warm. As I understand it global warming will equate to climate changes that could manifest in many different ways.

Yes, no one seems to really know what will happen. We can enter an ice age as well, if the global warming stops the oceans from moving long distances, heating and cooling down different places. Scary..

**Jiro** · 07-23-2009, 12:00 PM

what the fudge is going on here?

darkdog · 07-23-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Yes, no one seems to really know what will happen. We can enter an ice age as well, if the global warming stops the oceans from moving long distances, heating and cooling down different places. Scary..

In other words, it's not falsifiable. Whatever happens will be blamed on global warming. That's one of the many reasons I'm so wary of this whole global warming/climate change thing.

**sequoias** · 07-23-2009, 01:09 PM

We have NOT witnessed the ice age thousands of years ago so we don't know what really happens. All we can do is to see what happens.

flip · 07-23-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

In other words, it's not falsifiable. Whatever happens will be blamed on global warming. That's one of the many reasons I'm so wary of this whole global warming/climate change thing.

It isn't that complicated. It's possible to track changes to global warming. The problem is to forecast what those changes excactly will do with the earth.

When we notice that the density of salt in the northern atlantic decreases, it's easy to spot it to be due to melting of poles. Scientist also know that the salt density is what makes the warm water drop and go back south. Decreased salt density in the north ocean will slow down the circulation. It's already slowing down. What is complicated, is what the consquences of this will be.

This denial of global warming reminds me the problems Galileo and Darwin faced in their lifetime. People simply didn't understand how science could figure out those things and did not belive them. Nowdays 97 percent of climate researchers agree with each other, but still many people thinks global warming is controversial and yet to be proved.

kokonut · 07-23-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

It isn't that complicated. It's possible to track changes to global warming. The problem is to forecast what those changes excactly will do with the earth.

When we notice that the density of salt in the northern atlantic decreases, it's easy to spot it to be due to melting of poles. Scientist also know that the salt density is what makes the warm water drop and go back south. Decreased salt density in the north ocean will slow down the circulation. It's already slowing down. What is complicated, is what the consquences of this will be.

This denial of global warming reminds me the problems Galileo and Darwin faced in their lifetime. People simply didn't understand how science could figure out those things and did not belive them. Nowdays 97 percent of climate researchers agree with each other, but still many people thinks global warming is controversial and yet to be proved.

It isn't the denial about global warming per se but the idiocy to believe that man is responsible for global warming. That's the crux of the problem here. Global warming and cooling have occurred throughout the millions of years. And it continues to this day. It's cyclical. It's natural. Earth's system is very dynamic and changes with the sun's energy output. Quite a complex and very dynamic Earth system. There is not one report or evidence that can prove without a doubt that increasing CO2 concentration amount in the atmosphere is the sole major cause of global warming. Not one! So, therein lies a problem...most notably on those who actually believe that man has this capability to change the climate on a global scale (short of an all out nuclear war). We cannot even stop a tornado or even a hurricane, so what makes you think that man can control climate on a global scale? That's when fantasy begins. It's time to take the red pill. This is a policy driven agenda. Nothing more. Nothing less.

kokonut · 07-23-2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

We have NOT witnessed the ice age thousands of years ago so we don't know what really happens. All we can do is to see what happens.

Actually, we can. There are numerous ways to study what ancient climates were like using natural records such as tree rings, oxygen-isotope sea core studies, ice core studies, ancient lake bed sediments, rhythmites and varves, a variety of chemical analyses, radio carbon dating, paleomagnitism, geology and many more dating techniques out there. It's called paleoclimatology by using natural records that can go back thousands, hundred of thousands to million of years into the past to the present to help us understand what past paleoclimate was like.

The problem is trying to assign a single source as a the main cause of driving climate change. In this case, incredulously so, CO2 which makes up only .03 percent (not 3 percent but .03 percent or .0003) of the total atmospheric gases by volume while man contributes about .0009 (or .000009) percent of the total CO2 into the atmosphere. Vanishingly small when compared to water vapor that makes up as much as 3 percent of the total atmosphere gases which is quite significant in of itself compared to CO2 at .03 percent.

darkdog · 07-23-2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

When we notice that the density of salt in the northern atlantic decreases, it's easy to spot it to be due to melting of poles. Scientist also know that the salt density is what makes the warm water drop and go back south. Decreased salt density in the north ocean will slow down the circulation. It's already slowing down. What is complicated, is what the consquences of this will be.

Everything you just said there may be perfectly true, but it doesn't follow that our CO2 is to blame for it. Nor does it follow that it's a bad thing. Nor does it follow that we can fix it by destroying economic activity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

This denial of global warming reminds me the problems Galileo and Darwin faced in their lifetime. People simply didn't understand how science could figure out those things and did not belive them. Nowdays 97 percent of climate researchers agree with each other, but still many people thinks global warming is controversial and yet to be proved.

As far back as 2005, I used to believe in it and take the AGW advocates at their word. Then I noticed there were scientists that disagreed despite insistence that the debate was over. Those who even dared question the orthodoxy were maligned as deniers, big oil stooges, fascists, psychopaths, etc. I noticed a lot of group think. I also noticed complaints from scientists about losing funding or even worrying about losing their jobs for not toeing the party line. Additionally, the blatant hypocrisy from AGW elites like Al Gore, Laurie David, and Ariana Huffington doesn't help much.

I lost my trust that these scientists were acting in a scientific manner. If presented with data that completely destroys the hypothesis, I don't trust they would change their minds. I believe they would somehow "debunk" it away, resorting even to ad hominems and blatant dishonesty. The burden of proof is on them and their behavior has been very unconvincing.

EDIT: I should add, there are obviously some scientists honest enough to change their mind because that has happened. But when I think about guys like James Hansen, no way.

Hwy99 · 07-23-2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

<--YOU WROTE THIS!!!

That is not the source that there are any planets that does not have its star.

Hwy99 · 07-23-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Sure there is a difference, especially on warm days by almost a 30 degrees difference. The cold in Barrow stays around a lot longer due it's longitude. Just take a look.

Barrow - Climatological Data - Barrow
Fairbanks - Climatological Data - Fairbanks International Airport

There you go.

Quote:

What's better to compare is between Vancouver, BC and The Dalles, Oregon with both near large body of water and similar elevation.

The Dalles is much far from the ocean than Vancouver BC and are more drier, with strong windy. Now you wonder why The Dalles area are so yellow compare to Vancouver BC. Also I don't see that make you think The Dalles are near large body of water, The Dalles are only on the river while Vancouver BC are on the beach behind the islands from Washington to Victoria Island.

07-22-2009, 12:06 AM	#1 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	Irony of ironies, Gore's hometown Nashville Breaks 1877 Cold Temp Record... Coolest July 21 recorded in Nashville as cool wave continues in Tenn. - WHNT Also, related news. The Next Ice Age Now reported that there were record low temperatures recorded in 31 states this month. 256 new record low temperatures were either set or tied nationally. Record low temperatures in 21 states And parts of Michigan are up to 7 degrees below the previous record! Blame the sun! It's energy output is reaching its solar minimum in it's solar cycle on energy output (i.e. the number of sunspots). http://solarscience.auditblogs.com/2...his-quiet-sun/ Sun Entering Weakest Cycle Since 1928 - US News and World Report SPACE.com -- Sun's Strange Lull Explained SPACE.com -- The Sun Has Spots, Finally Are we going see very cold and early winters over the next few years or so? __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

07-22-2009, 12:36 AM	#3 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	The sun always drive the climate. It's the main driver. Without it, Earth would be a completely uninhabitable, iceball of a planet. When energy output from the sun drops it affects how climate behaves. There are other factors as well such as a regional high pressure where there is little opportunity for cloud formation to occur. Besides, July and August are the hottest months for Washington. I live there, too. http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/wa/wa.90.html __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

07-23-2009, 01:19 AM	#10 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	Oh, btw, it's cooler at the beach on the West coast only because the Pacific Ocean's water is much colder than the Atlantic Ocean on the East Coast at the same latitude. And so inland sea breezes come in off of the Pacific Ocean will be much more cooler than on the East Coast. There's about a 10F degrees differences between the two oceans from around low 80s on the Atlantic Ocean versus low 70s on the Pacific Ocean. NWS JetStream - The Sea Breeze __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

07-23-2009, 12:00 PM	#22 (permalink)
Jiro Aparecium Deletrius Legil Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: The Soprano State Posts: 60,512	what the fudge is going on here? __________________ - Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

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07-22-2009, 12:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
sequoias Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Iowa, the land of the cornfields and pigs Posts: 21,856	Ummm...it's hot here and been running about average here, high in the 80's in Western WA and 90's and 100s in East WA. I don't think it's caused by the sun, but caused by the strong El Nino or something like that.

07-22-2009, 11:53 PM	#8 (permalink)
Hwy99 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: A town in middle of the rolling hills Posts: 6,141	The Sun is not the only thing that make our temperature, but the water, mountains, etc does too as well. It's cool 70's at the beach in Washington while it's at 90's in my area (Vancouver, Washington) was because of the water at there. Good example, Greenland. People cannot live in the inner Greenland because it is very cold as hell and very deep snow in the inner so people in Greenland have to live near the water as possible to keep their temperature moderate. Fairbanks, Alaska get -50's at the winters while they get 100's in the summers, which is much cold than Barrow, Alaska. It's because Fairbanks is in middle of valley with mountains around the city while Barrow is on very flat area with lot of waters. It is depends on the geography, mostly.

07-23-2009, 10:45 AM	#18 (permalink)
rockdrummer Guest Posts: n/a	Global warming doesn't mean the entire globe will get warm. As I understand it global warming will equate to climate changes that could manifest in many different ways.

07-23-2009, 01:09 PM	#24 (permalink)
sequoias Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Iowa, the land of the cornfields and pigs Posts: 21,856	We have NOT witnessed the ice age thousands of years ago so we don't know what really happens. All we can do is to see what happens.