Doomsday Church: Still Open For Business - Page 4

Berry · 05-24-2011, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StSapphire

There's a slight issue with this that you've missed, though. (And I agree with a lot of your points, above).

The issue isn't with "only that which is proven". My issue is with opinions that have been disproven. I'm well aware that limiting yourself to merely what has been proven is silly (after all, how could you ever prove that vanilla is a superior ice cream flavor to chocolate, regardless of how true I think it is?

).

.

I know that.

It was not directed "too" you. It was merely the best way to say what I had to say.

There ARE people who believe ONLY that which is proven. In school I had a hard time with teachers who insisted there was no such thing as "Ball Lightening" or "Hailstones bigger than golf balls". My mother told me she had seen them both. I chose to believe her and suffer the consequences. Now both of these things are accepted facts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

The concept but not the term "rapture" has been in the Scriptures ever since they were written.

.

This has always bothered me. I have never had anyone explain to me what the word "rapture" means in a way that I can understand and I could not find it in the Bible. (Yes I have read it twice, thank you.)

I'm not interested on arguing, and Im not going to be converted by knowing, but I would like to understand.

StSapphire · 05-24-2011, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

I know that.

It was not directed "too" you. It was merely the best way to say what I had to say.

There ARE people who believe ONLY that which is proven. In school I had a hard time with teachers who insisted there was no such thing as "Ball Lightening" or "Hailstones bigger than golf balls". My mother told me she had seen them both. I chose to believe her and suffer the consequences. Now both of these things are accepted facts.

Ah, okay, sorry for misunderstanding.

And yeah, I understand skepticism and generally favor it in increasing amounts the more extreme a claim is (so if you claim to have an invisible pet dragon in your 1-car garage, I'll be far more skeptical than if you claim to have an uncle who has six fingers on his left hand, though I'll still be at least somewhat skeptical). Refusing to accept anything you've not personally witnessed or seen documented is certainly just as bad as accepting anything without a shred of evidence or even in face of contradictory evidence.

Berry · 05-24-2011, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StSapphire

Ah, okay, sorry for misunderstanding.

And yeah, I understand skepticism and generally favor it in increasing amounts the more extreme a claim is (so if you claim to have an invisible pet dragon in your 1-car garage, I'll be far more skeptical than if you claim to have an uncle who has six fingers on his left hand, though I'll still be at least somewhat skeptical). Refusing to accept anything you've not personally witnessed or seen documented is certainly just as bad as accepting anything without a shred of evidence or even in face of contradictory evidence.

I have an interesting theory on my uncle's invisible pet dragon.

Yet as a child I did just this in choosing to believe what my mother told me, and refusing to accept, the "documented facts" the teachers had. Yet in the end, far too late to do my childhood (or my resulting personality) any good, she was scientifically validated and so was in in my contention that "Knowing the source and knowing "How the source knows the information" is more important than simply "Sticking to the facts."

I follow a couple of maxims:

How you know a thing is as important as what you know.

Why you know a thing is as important as what you know.

I choose to be skeptical of all things, true or false.

Grass is green.

It is an obvious truth but I know it is false.

StSapphire · 05-25-2011, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

I have an interesting theory on my uncle's invisible pet dragon.

Yet as a child I did just this in choosing to believe what my mother told me, and refusing to accept, the "documented facts" the teachers had. Yet in the end, far too late to do my childhood (or my resulting personality) any good, she was scientifically validated and so was in in my contention that "Knowing the source and knowing "How the source knows the information" is more important than simply "Sticking to the facts."

I follow a couple of maxims:

How you know a thing is as important as what you know.

Why you know a thing is as important as what you know.

I choose to be skeptical of all things, true or false.

Grass is green.

It is an obvious truth but I know it is false.

Well, for all of your talk of how logic isn't (necessarily) all it's cracked up to be, you've got the perfect mental foundation for a rationalist. We'd be happy to have you if you're interested, and if you like learning about new things and reading, I can point you in the direction of some readings online which I've found both extremely interesting and useful in my life.

Who knows? Maybe I could point you in the direction of being someone who could start to save the world.

Berry · 05-25-2011, 10:52 PM

I would be interested in the links and the reading. I actually find rationalism interesting but I was raised in a Native American Religion that has always been deemed preposterous to the average person -- But then lo and behold -- Along comes quantum physics, and its coconspirator quantum mathematics to give it scientific substance.

So I am now more, not less, entrenched in the belief of a spiritual foundation of the universe, or maxiverse if you choose.

Interestingly this belief does not render either your belief system or Reba's belief system invalid. To me they are equally valid. The problem comes when one side or the other maintains they have "The Right Rnswer."

None of us has "The Right Answer" but most of us have tools that help us get through life without too much damage to ourselves or to others.

jillio · 05-26-2011, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

I would be interested in the links and the reading. I actually find rationalism interesting but I was raised in a Native American Religion that has always been deemed preposterous to the average person -- But then lo and behold -- Along comes quantum physics, and its coconspirator quantum mathematics to give it scientific substance.

So I am now more, not less, entrenched in the belief of a spiritual foundation of the universe, or maxiverse if you choose.

Interestingly this belief does not render either your belief system or Reba's belief system invalid. To me they are equally valid. The problem comes when one side or the other maintains they have "The Right Rnswer."

None of us has "The Right Answer" but most of us have tools that help us get through life without too much damage to ourselves or to others.

The only "right answer" we are capable of determining is the "right answer" for ourselves. When we attempt to apply our "right answer" universally is when we have problems.

Babyblue · 05-26-2011, 12:31 PM

Too many right answers... Just got to choose what is right for you.

Berry · 05-26-2011, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

The only "right answer" we are capable of determining is the "right answer" for ourselves. When we attempt to apply our "right answer" universally is when we have problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babyblue

Too many right answers... Just got to choose what is right for you.

Bingo, or what is it somebody replied to one of my posts?

Yahtzee!

Babyblue · 05-26-2011, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

Bingo, or what is it somebody replied to one of my posts?

Yahtzee!

StSapphire · 05-27-2011, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

I would be interested in the links and the reading. I actually find rationalism interesting but I was raised in a Native American Religion that has always been deemed preposterous to the average person -- But then lo and behold -- Along comes quantum physics, and its coconspirator quantum mathematics to give it scientific substance.

So I am now more, not less, entrenched in the belief of a spiritual foundation of the universe, or maxiverse if you choose.

Interestingly this belief does not render either your belief system or Reba's belief system invalid. To me they are equally valid. The problem comes when one side or the other maintains they have "The Right Rnswer."

None of us has "The Right Answer" but most of us have tools that help us get through life without too much damage to ourselves or to others.

Check your inbox, I wrote you a message with a reading suggestion. Hopefully you'll enjoy it! (Beware - this may end up obliterating your "spiritual universe" worldview, depending on how you define "spiritual". But if that's not how reality really is, then that's okay!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

The only "right answer" we are capable of determining is the "right answer" for ourselves. When we attempt to apply our "right answer" universally is when we have problems.

Oh, pft. This just sounds like moral relativism run amok. Obviously there are circumstantial caveats with anything, but you can still accurately say "In general, this is the right answer" to something, and applying that to others isn't a problem. If I say that "it is better to not harm someone than it is to harm them", I'm sure I can get 10 people instantly warning that I'm trying to be a radical pacifist and prevent retribution against criminals and all sorts of other things.

What you (normally) won't see, except in certain hyper-relativistic-liberal circles, is someone saying "You can't say that, cultures in the Middle East don't agree that not harming someone is better than harming them, so you're being insensitive and trying to steamroll their society with your own selfish notion of right and wrong!" The fact of the matter is that anyone claiming that is simply wrong. With moral relativism of that sort, the only "sin" that can any further exist is one - hypocrisy. And when you come to the conclusion that professing one thing and doing another is the only moral truth, then you've already retreated from relativism, because you've used relativism to espouse a moral absolute.

jillio · 05-27-2011, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StSapphire

Check your inbox, I wrote you a message with a reading suggestion. Hopefully you'll enjoy it! (Beware - this may end up obliterating your "spiritual universe" worldview, depending on how you define "spiritual". But if that's not how reality really is, then that's okay!)

Oh, pft. This just sounds like moral relativism run amok. Obviously there are circumstantial caveats with anything, but you can still accurately say "In general, this is the right answer" to something, and applying that to others isn't a problem. If I say that "it is better to not harm someone than it is to harm them", I'm sure I can get 10 people instantly warning that I'm trying to be a radical pacifist and prevent retribution against criminals and all sorts of other things.

What you (normally) won't see, except in certain hyper-relativistic-liberal circles, is someone saying "You can't say that, cultures in the Middle East don't agree that not harming someone is better than harming them, so you're being insensitive and trying to steamroll their society with your own selfish notion of right and wrong!" The fact of the matter is that anyone claiming that is simply wrong. With moral relativism of that sort, the only "sin" that can any further exist is one - hypocrisy. And when you come to the conclusion that professing one thing and doing another is the only moral truth, then you've already retreated from relativism, because you've used relativism to espouse a moral absolute.

Live and learn, young man, live and learn.

souggy · 05-27-2011, 01:36 PM

I doubt you will shatter his world.

I means... Hinduism and Native American belief systems are pretty flexible.

StSapphire · 05-27-2011, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Live and learn, young man, live and learn.

Haha, I have been. I just blow in the direction the existing evidence I've seen points me, lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

I doubt you will shatter his world.

I means... Hinduism and Native American belief systems are pretty flexible.

We'll see. I planted the seeds, I want to see what they'll grow into now.

Berry · 05-28-2011, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StSapphire

Check your inbox, I wrote you a message with a reading suggestion. Hopefully you'll enjoy it! (Beware - this may end up obliterating your "spiritual universe" worldview, depending on how you define "spiritual". But if that's not how reality really is, then that's okay!)

It will be a while before I get to this. Might have to wait until December.

I doubt it will change my basic stance as the rational view only takes into consideration that which it knows. I am constantly aware of that which I do NOT know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StSapphire

Oh, pft. This just sounds like moral relativism run amok. Obviously there are circumstantial caveats with anything, but you can still accurately say "In general, this is the right answer" to something, and applying that to others isn't a problem. If I say that "it is better to not harm someone than it is to harm them", I'm sure I can get 10 people instantly warning that I'm trying to be a radical pacifist and prevent retribution against criminals and all sorts of other things.

"Moral relativism" is a bit chaotic because it does not recognize a central fact of reality. Reality is a combination of order and chaos. Life achieves order through chaotic action. Philosophers and theologians (both authoritarian by nature) attempt to enforce order on all chaotic behavior equally. In other words they attempt to tell "Everyone how each individual should act."

Authoritarians do not recognize the natural seeking of balance and attempt to enforce balance in the mistaken belief that ALL people will "get out of line" and "destroy all that's good in society" if it is not controlled." They tend to see every nonconformist action as "criminal."

Every so often someone is going to come along who is so destructive (a criminal) to order that they threaten to destroy (or seriously inhibit) it. By the nature of chaotic action someone, or some group, will happen to oppose them by whatever means necessary. Order will be restored.

Intelligent authority will nurture chaos and chaos will maintain order.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StSapphire

What you (normally) won't see, except in certain hyper-relativistic-liberal circles, is someone saying "You can't say that, cultures in the Middle East don't agree that not harming someone is better than harming them, so you're being insensitive and trying to steamroll their society with your own selfish notion of right and wrong!" The fact of the matter is that anyone claiming that is simply wrong. With moral relativism of that sort, the only "sin" that can any further exist is one - hypocrisy. And when you come to the conclusion that professing one thing and doing another is the only moral truth, then you've already retreated from relativism, because you've used relativism to espouse a moral absolute.

You are trying to combat ignorant people with equal ignorance and it comes out sounding soooo ---Ignorant.

You should never attempt to bring intelligent conversation to an idiot. They will simply drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

In order to think this way you have to believe that words and reality have equal, or the same, identities -- And they do not. Words are only maps that help you navigate reality. They are not THE reality. The two should NEVER be confused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

I doubt you will shatter his world.

I means... Hinduism and Native American belief systems are pretty flexible.

Also Buddhism and Zen.

Gotta love Hinduism as an alternate form of understanding. The teaching of truth, beauty, reality, etc., through the use of myth and mythology. Probably the most dramatic form of nonlogical, but effective, ways of understanding that exists today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StSapphire

Haha, I have been. I just blow in the direction the existing evidence I've seen points me, lol.

We'll see. I planted the seeds, I want to see what they'll grow into now.

But the evidence is inconclusive, unfinished, and depends on assumptions some of us do not adhere to.

That last sentence is sooooo Christian of you.

jillio · 05-28-2011, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

It will be a while before I get to this. Might have to wait until December.

I doubt it will change my basic stance as the rational view only takes into consideration that which it knows. I am constantly aware of that which I do NOT know.

"Moral relativism" is a bit chaotic because it does not recognize a central fact of reality. Reality is a combination of order and chaos. Life achieves order through chaotic action. Philosophers and theologians (both authoritarian by nature) attempt to enforce order on all chaotic behavior equally. In other words they attempt to tell "Everyone how each individual should act."

Authoritarians do not recognize the natural seeking of balance and attempt to enforce balance in the mistaken belief that ALL people will "get out of line" and "destroy all that's good in society" if it is not controlled." They tend to see every nonconformist action as "criminal."

Every so often someone is going to come along who is so destructive (a criminal) to order that they threaten to destroy (or seriously inhibit) it. By the nature of chaotic action someone, or some group, will happen to oppose them by whatever means necessary. Order will be restored.

Intelligent authority will nurture chaos and chaos will maintain order.

You are trying to combat ignorant people with equal ignorance and it comes out sounding soooo ---Ignorant.

You should never attempt to bring intelligent conversation to an idiot. They will simply drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

In order to think this way you have to believe that words and reality have equal, or the same, identities -- And they do not. Words are only maps that help you navigate reality. They are not THE reality. The two should NEVER be confused.

Also Buddhism and Zen.

Gotta love Hinduism as an alternate form of understanding. The teaching of truth, beauty, reality, etc., through the use of myth and mythology. Probably the most dramatic form of nonlogical, but effective, ways of understanding that exists today.

But the evidence is inconclusive, unfinished, and depends on assumptions some of us do not adhere to.

That last sentence is sooooo Christian of you.

I use a theory of counseling for some of my clients that was based on the mindfulness principle of Zen. Work really well for specific clients.

05-25-2011, 10:52 PM	#95 (permalink)
Berry Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Oroville, Ca. Posts: 2,024	I would be interested in the links and the reading. I actually find rationalism interesting but I was raised in a Native American Religion that has always been deemed preposterous to the average person -- But then lo and behold -- Along comes quantum physics, and its coconspirator quantum mathematics to give it scientific substance. So I am now more, not less, entrenched in the belief of a spiritual foundation of the universe, or maxiverse if you choose. Interestingly this belief does not render either your belief system or Reba's belief system invalid. To me they are equally valid. The problem comes when one side or the other maintains they have "The Right Rnswer." None of us has "The Right Answer" but most of us have tools that help us get through life without too much damage to ourselves or to others. jillio and Bebonang like this. __________________ Free Jillio! Living life in the sandbox.

05-26-2011, 12:31 PM	#97 (permalink)
Babyblue Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 11,998	Too many right answers... Just got to choose what is right for you. jillio and Berry like this.

05-27-2011, 01:36 PM	#102 (permalink)
souggy Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 9,541	I doubt you will shatter his world. I means... Hinduism and Native American belief systems are pretty flexible. jillio and Berry like this. __________________ "It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don’t understand it." - Richard Freynman

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