rockdrummer

This is interesting and was accepted in Jan of 2002. Is anybody aware of a more recent survey or does this one still hold true? I've provided a link to the source and also to the full text (PDF format) below.

Thanks

Deafness

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loml

RD -

I am not aware of Carol Lasasso venturing out on this topic again any time soon. Interesting read though. I know locally the system will tell you that they are bi-bi., but in reality they do not have the quantity or quality of staff to truly be bi-bi. It is a huge problem that is not talked about.

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- Dr. Edward C. Merrill, Jr. past president of Gallaudet

rockdrummer

I also was kind of shocked at the numbers in the full text document. I have also heard others that have been through the bi-bi approach suggest that it was a joke. Tha'ts not to say there are some good programs out there but I guess it's like anything else where there are good and bad.

shel90

Interesting read..I will share this with the administrators at work. As always, there is always room for improvement in all programs.

It is unfortunate that finding staff fluent in ASL cuz less deaf fluent signers are interested in the field of teaching due to all these laws being passed and the fear of losing jobs in the future due to more parents wanting oral-only programs for their implanted chidlren. Oh well..

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~Shel~

Interpretrator

Yes. I relied heavily on this article for a literature review I wrote a few years ago, and wound up having to change a few of my assumptions as a result. I was also very interested to note how many programs that call themselves bi-bi really are not. I don't know if it's because they don't really understand the principles of bi-bi education (which include strong language models for BOTH languages) or if they're just jumping on the bandwagon in order to attract students.

I'm sure some of these not-so-bi-bi programs still provide quality education, but it doesn't really help the cause when you're calling yourself something you are not.

jillio

Until we get more deaf educators involved in deaf education, we will be unable to achieve a true bi-bi environment educationally. A lot of TC programs have begun identifying themselves as Bi-Bi for political reasons.

shel90

Problem is that many deaf people are not interested in becoming teachers. In my grad program at Gallaudet, there were more hearing students than deaf and I was so shocked to see that.

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~Shel~

jillio

I know...its a big problem. Teaching was, at one point, a very viable career choice for Deaf/deaf adults. Now, with so many deaf schools loosing enrollment to the mainstream, and public schools reluctant to hire deaf teachers for their self contained classrooms, much less their mainstream classrooms, job opportunites are few and far between. We are wasting so much potential out there.

rockdrummer

Aren't there laws that protect individuals against discrimination? Don't those laws apply to the educational field as well? Or is it that nobody pursues it?

loml

RD - Deaf edcuational is a massive political arena. In my experience, most mainstream administrative bodies are extremely uneducated in the field of deafness. Lets' face it, unless you have a desire to learn about it or know someone personally, very few people are aware of the needs and issues of a deaf child.

The quality of deaf education has been a topic of discussion for years. Parents do not enroll the children in the local deaf school here for many reasons, one being their views of the quality of education. Post secondary is very competative, I am not versed in the entrance requirements for Gally, but mainstream here is extremely cut throat. 1/2% can make or break your acceptance.

Then you need to look at Gally itself.

and on and on.........

__________________
- Dr. Edward C. Merrill, Jr. past president of Gallaudet

rockdrummer

Thanks loml I also believe that education in general (deaf and hearing) is not only a massive political arena but both are surrounded with contravorsy on teaching methods. Both are also highly competetive (cut throat as you put it) Perhaps more so on the deaf ed side but nevertheless all education in general has these influences. Not much in life is easy and some things are worth going the extra mile for.

My question was more to Jillio's statement
It seems to me that the laws would protect deafies from being overlooked based on a schools "reluctance" to hire. A deaf instructor should be able to teach a hearing or deaf classroom assuming they are qualified and meet the required criteria. I'm sure its much tougher than it sounds but I think that deaf educators with common beliefs in bi-bi teaching methods would have a tremendous impact on the mainstreem school's with these programs. If they are shutting down deaf schools that why not have those teachers apply at mainstream schools for variouis positions including deaf ed programs. They shouldn't be denied simply because they are deaf assuming they meet all other criteria. Also once they are in they can begin to educate the hearing educators on Bilingual-Bicultural deaf education.

jillio

There are laws now, but this is a process that was put into action long before the ADA. And, just because the ADA is in effect, doesn't mean that it functions well in practice in all cases. There are numerous loopholes that administrators use to maintain the status quo.

jillio

Oh, rd, they never use deafness as the reason for denial. But if you have two entry level teachers applying for the same position, with the same education, within a public school system (even a self contained program, it will be the hearing applicant rather than the deaf, that is hired the majority of the time, even though the it would make more sense to hire a deaf educator to teach deaf children. The reason hinges on administrative issues outside the functions of a classroom teacher. That teacher would be better able to communicate with her students, but it would inconvienince the rest of the hearing staff and faculty to communicate with her. The concern, quite often, is not the best classroom situation.

And I do agree...they could have a tremendous impact on mainstream education. This is another area that needs advocacy badly. And, hand in hand, would be the need to educate parents on the ability of a deaf educator to provide an excellent educational atmosphere for their child. I will probably be lambasted for this next statement, but too many hearing parents are once agian becoming so focused on oral methods that they are unwilling to perrmit a deaf educator to instruct their child becasue they do no believe a deaf personw ould provide their child with fluent models of speech. Not to matter that they could provide fluent models of English in other forms...it is the speech skills that are the priorty. In fact, not long ago in another thread, a parent out right made the statement that they did not want a deaf teacher because their child was oral and the deaf teacher would not provide good examples for spoken language.

rockdrummer

That sucks about the job situation. Seems to me that based soley on numbers discrimination should not be that difficult to prove. Obviously it's not that simple.

IMO- There will always be the need to teach in many methods and I believe a school should embrace the full toolbox approach. At some point oral skills are going to be needed. My son at mininum should be able to say "I'm deaf". I'ts either learn to speak or be ready to write alot. Or I guess you could get lucky once and a while and find a signer, or have a terp following you around everywhere. I don't mean to sound "oralist" but I'm not sure how else to look at it.

flip

I doubt this is gonna happen, because deaf people seek to work with deaf people. Few are going to apply, and I doubt the few one are the best ones.

Interpretrator

In my area there are a lot of deaf people teaching ASL. Some of them teach in the high schools and some teach at community colleges that serve both high school and college students. So at least in terms of deaf studies it's not universally seen as a problem to hire a deaf teacher.

Outside of that, though...I don't know if it's for that reason or because of the others mentioned in this thread but I agree it's still rare and unusual to see deaf people teaching non-deaf-related subjects in mainstream classrooms. With solid interpreting I don't see that it has to be a problem; back before I knew too much sign language I was a service provider in a classroom taught by a deaf teacher with voice interpretation and I didn't notice either hearing or deaf students having any problem with comprehension. This was a deaf studies classroom, granted, but there's no reason why it can't work in a mainstream classroom, logistically.

Of course it's rarely logistics that are the problem; it's the politics.

jillio

It does appear to be opening up to some degree in the area of Deaf Studies.

deafdyke

What about CODAs? CODAs would be great TODs b/c they are "almost deaf"
Agreed! When people bash bi-bi, they aren't really looking at the reasons why bi-bi doesn't work. Like there are STILL Deaf schools where the teachers aren't fluent in ASL! (my friend attended one) Also, Sign programs tend to be (unfortunatly) dumping grounds for the "oral failures"................the kids who have strong parental invovement, do well usually. But b/c there's such a high number of "oral failures", those kids are overrepresented! It's exactly like taking an inner city school, and how there are some students who do well. Yet MOST inner city students don't do all that well due to various and sundry factors!

jillio

CODAs would be an advantage.

rockdrummer

Paints a pretty bleak picture for bi-bi education. If you had to fix it how would you go about it? Aren't there any current groups advocating this? If not, then why?

shel90

Increase teacher's salaries...that is one way to go about it. I think there is the BiBi coalittion and McDaniel's has a committe to do research on how to improve programs all over.

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~Shel~

Interpretrator

My impression from that article is that there are programs out there that really do believe they're providing bilingual-bicultural education but don't have the resources, language models, etc. I think most importantly administrators of these programs need to be educated about the principles and reasoning behind bi-bi education.

I do think it wouldn't be prohibitively difficult to improve some of these programs that have already gone partway with their positive attitude towards English and ASL used together, but yeah, it would take some proactive advocacy.

rockdrummer

That's a common complaint in the teaching field I do believe. I'ts a common complaint at my place of business too. Most teachers that I know of are not in it for the money. If these programs are truly better for the kids then I hope the coalition has a positive impact.

rockdrummer