Learning pace of Deaf vs. Hearing kids - Page 2

rockdrummer · 02-04-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VamPyroX

I can't find specific facts or references, but I did find out a few things from some people at NTID.

A high percentage of deaf students tend to graduate high school with 3rd grade to 7th grade reading, writing, and math level.

That is about what I am seeing too allthough what I have read indicates a 4th grade level.

sr171soars · 02-04-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

That is about what I am seeing too allthough what I have read indicates a 4th grade level.

Just out of curiosity, why is that? Is it because the general education approach is not adequate? Or they generally don't get the support they need at home or school? It is specific to language acquisition issues (i.e., not getting sign to give them a base language to work with)? Perhaps, it is all of the above.

From all the posts here and elsewhere, it seems to come down to language acquisition issues. Without a firm base to start with, one is destined to failure no matter how intelligent one is. They may be a few that can do an "end around" the system but not many. I can remember that I astounded the establishment with picking up English very easily and was ahead of both the deaf and hearing kids for my age especially in reading abilities. They had to put me in reading classes two or three grades ahead to keep me challenged and on track.

Cloggy · 02-04-2007, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr171soars

Just out of curiosity, why is that? .......

I find the comparison with foreign languages goes a long way.

Put a spanish child in an italian class, and my guess is that it's grades will not be impressive...

shel90 · 02-04-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr171soars

Just out of curiosity, why is that? Is it because the general education approach is not adequate? Or they generally don't get the support they need at home or school? It is specific to language acquisition issues (i.e., not getting sign to give them a base language to work with)? Perhaps, it is all of the above.

From all the posts here and elsewhere, it seems to come down to language acquisition issues. Without a firm base to start with, one is destined to failure no matter how intelligent one is. They may be a few that can do an "end around" the system but not many. I can remember that I astounded the establishment with picking up English very easily and was ahead of both the deaf and hearing kids for my age especially in reading abilities. They had to put me in reading classes two or three grades ahead to keep me challenged and on track.

yep it was all of the above. Since my school has adopted the public school curriculm, the deaf children at the regular ed programs are doing a lot better. So we got that problem solved...now we have to work on the children who do not have language support at home or those who missed the first 5 years of language development. We have 2 reading specialists working with those children numerous times. I gotta give my school a lot of credit for changing the programs in the past 5 years. We see each child as an individual learner and use whatever teaching approaches that works with them which is why many of our classes are small (in the special ed program). It is a CHALLENGE and of course it wont solve all the problems but at least the the educational approach has changed a lot for the better. I hope the other deaf schools have done the same thing. I know The Learning Center in Mass uses the public school curriculm.

rockdrummer · 02-04-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr171soars

Just out of curiosity, why is that? Is it because the general education approach is not adequate? Or they generally don't get the support they need at home or school? It is specific to language acquisition issues (i.e., not getting sign to give them a base language to work with)? Perhaps, it is all of the above.

From all the posts here and elsewhere, it seems to come down to language acquisition issues. Without a firm base to start with, one is destined to failure no matter how intelligent one is. They may be a few that can do an "end around" the system but not many. I can remember that I astounded the establishment with picking up English very easily and was ahead of both the deaf and hearing kids for my age especially in reading abilities. They had to put me in reading classes two or three grades ahead to keep me challenged and on track.

You (as usual) have hit the nail on the head. One of my purposes for this thread is to illustrate a few points that I am hopeful everyone can agree on.

Point 1. Based on accepted measurement standards the statistics indicate that a majority (near half ??) of deaf children graduate high school at 4th grade education level. Please use the links provided in this thread for reference to those numbers.

Point 2. Some of the variables impacting the learning process include;
Parental involvement, teaching methods and the level of hearing be it assisted or natural.

Point 3. Anyone (deaf or hearing) graduating at a 4th grade education level will be at a dis-advantage in many aspects of life including competition in the job market.

The next interesting statistics would be;

Are there direct relationships between the grade level of graduating students and the variables mentioned in point 2. In other words; Do kids graduate with higher education levels if they have been taught in a certian way? Or if there parents were involved? Or if they have some ability to hear and if so, is there a direct relationship between how welll they hear and how well they do?

I am also interested in hearing for those that may dis-agree with anything said here and why they dis-agree.

shel90 · 02-04-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

You (as usual) have hit the nail on the head. One of my purposes for this thread is to illustrate a few points that I am hopeful everyone can agree on.

Point 1. Based on accepted measurement standards the statistics indicate that a majority (near half ??) of deaf children graduate high school at 4th grade education level. Please use the links provided in this thread for reference to those numbers.

Point 2. Some of the variables impacting the learning process include;
Parental involvement, teaching methods and the level of hearing be it assisted or natural.

Point 3. Anyone (deaf or hearing) graduating at a 4th grade education level will be at a dis-advantage in many aspects of life including competition in the job market.

The next interesting statistics would be;

Are there direct relationships between the grade level of graduating students and the variables mentioned in point 2. In other words; Do kids graduate with higher education levels if they have been taught in a certian way? Or if there parents were involved? Or if they have some ability to hear and if so, is there a direct relationship between how welll they hear and how well they do?

I am also interested in hearing for those that may dis-agree with anything said here and why they dis-agree.

For my personal experience (I am sorry..I know u want statistics) the direct relationship btn how well I hear and how well I did wasnt the case for me since I have a severely profound hearing loss and yet I graduated with a 13 greade reading level. My writing was average..nothing exceptional about it.

When I was in grad school studying deaf ed and language acquistion, I took one class about research methods (not the official name) and the instructor pointed out that we have to be careful about believing the research done on deaf children and education cuz we have to look out for the selection process, the bias, and the validity of the results. Gosh that was 7 years ago..I wish I can remember more but when I read any studies, I look out for the kind of subjects they used, how they were picked, was it in a controlled or non controlled setting, the variables, and the author's bias.

sr171soars · 02-04-2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

I find the comparison with foreign languages goes a long way.

Put a spanish child in an italian class, and my guess is that it's grades will not be impressive...

Er...we already see that with the Hispanic kids in our country and trying to cope with learning English in school. So, you are right on the mark with that statement.

Although with deaf kids, it is alot more complicated than just having different language skills.

Shel90 - I'm glad to hear they are allowing more deaf kids to use the public school curriculum. FYI - I just wish the public school curriculum was tougher than it is now. I do believe expectations can be much higher and kids can respond to it. IMHO - I think there has been too much "dumbing" down the standards over the years. But that is another story...

Rockdrummer - To answer your point #2, antidotally I would say that with deaf kids having either decent hearing (aided) and/or sign would go a long way to get these kids going. But I can tell you that parential involvement is another extremely important element. Not so much to be "taskmasters" but more along the lines of guiding and encouraging them to achieve the best they can do (not what the parents could do themselves...big difference and many parents live vicariously through their children in the wrong way unfortunately...)

SnAzZyStyLe2002 · 02-10-2007, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I grew up around hearing kids and went to the same school as them. I think my learning pace was the same as them even though I had to compromise some things like extra hours spent with speech therapists and one on one time with the deaf ed teacher.

If u are asking about the pace of congnitive processing skills, I think they are the same but deaf children learn with the visual approach while hearing kids learn with the auditory approach.

Hope that is what your question was referring to.

I am in the same category, those deafies growing up among hearies. I'd say that English is really my first language.

***VamPyroX*** · 02-10-2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr171soars

Just out of curiosity, why is that? Is it because the general education approach is not adequate? Or they generally don't get the support they need at home or school? It is specific to language acquisition issues (i.e., not getting sign to give them a base language to work with)? Perhaps, it is all of the above.

From all the posts here and elsewhere, it seems to come down to language acquisition issues. Without a firm base to start with, one is destined to failure no matter how intelligent one is. They may be a few that can do an "end around" the system but not many. I can remember that I astounded the establishment with picking up English very easily and was ahead of both the deaf and hearing kids for my age especially in reading abilities. They had to put me in reading classes two or three grades ahead to keep me challenged and on track.

It can be for a number of reasons.

When I was growing up, I went to mainstream school. All schools that I went to had deaf programs and also put some deaf students in classes with hearing students.

Those who were in deaf classes were given more flexibility with their grades. A lot of them had their grades "modified" for passing on to the next grade level.

One guy I knew would take 7th grade math. Whenever he was given a test, he would struggle and the teacher would do half of the problems for him. As a result, he only got the work half done. By next year, he did the other half.

Real math usually begins around 3rd or 4th grade. If we were to reduce the amount of hard work done to get to the next grade level...

3rd grade in 3rd and 4th grade; 4th grade in 5th and 6th grade; 5th grade in 7th and 8th grade; 6th grade in 9th and 10th grade; 7th grade in 11th and 12th grade... then those students graduate high school at 7th grade math level.

That's how it was for this guy in my high school.

I remember them giving us a test to see how well-educated we were... like a placement exam. He was given a large-print book with 7th grade level math and his teacher did half of the test for him.

sr171soars · 02-10-2007, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VamPyroX

It can be for a number of reasons.

When I was growing up, I went to mainstream school. All schools that I went to had deaf programs and also put some deaf students in classes with hearing students.

Those who were in deaf classes were given more flexibility with their grades. A lot of them had their grades "modified" for passing on to the next grade level.

One guy I knew would take 7th grade math. Whenever he was given a test, he would struggle and the teacher would do half of the problems for him. As a result, he only got the work half done. By next year, he did the other half.

Real math usually begins around 3rd or 4th grade. If we were to reduce the amount of hard work done to get to the next grade level...

3rd grade in 3rd and 4th grade; 4th grade in 5th and 6th grade; 5th grade in 7th and 8th grade; 6th grade in 9th and 10th grade; 7th grade in 11th and 12th grade... then those students graduate high school at 7th grade math level.

That's how it was for this guy in my high school.

I remember them giving us a test to see how well-educated we were... like a placement exam. He was given a large-print book with 7th grade level math and his teacher did half of the test for him.

*Shakes my head*

It is as if the educational system doesn't believe those that are deaf can learn anything... I was mainstreamed and I wasn't given any "slack" so to speak. In other words, I had a set of expectations to meet and I did that and more. Of course, being in a mainstreamed situation sort of "lumps" you with the hearing.

As for deaf schools, it really boggles my mind that in general (not all deaf schools are like this) they don't expect much from the deaf kids. What a waste... No wonder many have so much trouble in the real world after they leave school.

deafskeptic · 02-10-2007, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr171soars

*Shakes my head*

It is as if the educational system doesn't believe those that are deaf can learn anything... I was mainstreamed and I wasn't given any "slack" so to speak. In other words, I had a set of expectations to meet and I did that and more. Of course, being in a mainstreamed situation sort of "lumps" you with the hearing.

As for deaf schools, it really boggles my mind that in general (not all deaf schools are like this) they don't expect much from the deaf kids. What a waste... No wonder many have so much trouble in the real world after they leave school.

Yeah, low expectations has always been a problem in Deaf ed.

I remember my best friend and I got a Flintstone dictionary as a gift from our resources teacher when we were both mainstreamed. We felt insulted as both of us had better English skills then even many of our hearing peers.

That dictionary was like around first grade level.

shel90 · 02-10-2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr171soars

Shel90 - I'm glad to hear they are allowing more deaf kids to use the public school curriculum. FYI - I just wish the public school curriculum was tougher than it is now. I do believe expectations can be much higher and kids can respond to it. IMHO - I think there has been too much "dumbing" down the standards over the years. But that is another story...

I think the public school curriculm here in MD have VERY high standards. I know from experience as a teacher using it and from my daughter's school. By 2nd grade, the children are required to do a BCR to explain how they solved math problems.

My first grade class math curriculm is so tough cuz it involves a lot of critical thinking. I am impressed with it.

jillio · 02-12-2007, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I grew up around hearing kids and went to the same school as them. I think my learning pace was the same as them even though I had to compromise some things like extra hours spent with speech therapists and one on one time with the deaf ed teacher.

If u are asking about the pace of congnitive processing skills, I think they are the same but deaf children learn with the visual approach while hearing kids learn with the auditory approach.

Hope that is what your question was referring to.

Exactly, shel.

jillio · 02-12-2007, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Thank you Shel and while I respect your view I am really looking for statistics and studies etc. as opposed to opinions and life experiences. While I do beleive those are important, they don't provide and accurate cross section.

Look for the comparative cognitive research done by awell respected cognitive psychologist named Marshark. He has numerous published papers, and a couple of books.

deafskeptic · 02-12-2007, 11:20 PM

I meant that deaf are not expected to do as well as hearing do when it come to learning stuff.

This is often reflected in courses for the deaf in either mainstream or deaf. I've never taken a biological course nor do I know many of the grammatical rules for English. I remember my little sister had to explain what a helping verb is to me.

That's because I spent most of my life in special ed. I recall that one poster had to color in anatomical stuff for her science class. You'd never see stuff like this for hearing classes.

Both my friend and I had better English skills than many of our hearing peers so we felt insulted when our teacher gave us what was either a kindergarten level or first grade level dictionary. We were in 7 grade at the time.

Casperman · 02-15-2007, 08:50 AM

i want to add soemthing.. at Kyschool for the deaf.. my 2nd sonis in kindergaten.. he is learning add, and subtract in math classes and english and spelling.. iwonder why didnt me and my ex got that in past..and i askedmy best buddy whos a instructor aide there he works with my son.. he said that ky have a law called no child left behind i m not sure if it covers usa too but that is the reason why they are teachin math, spellin etc at early age..

shel90 · 02-15-2007, 09:34 AM

In regards to the title of the thread "Learning Pace of Deaf vs. Hearing Kids", I think it may be misleading cuz it gave me the impression that it is about comparing the learning abilities of deaf children to the learning abilities of hearing kids. If that is the case, then the answer is really easy. Deaf kids are capable of learning at the same pace as hearing kids. Some can learn faster or some will be slower. As long as they dont have any congitive disabilities, their brains work just like hearing kids' brains at birth. The next 5 years will become critical for the deaf children's brain development depending on language accessibility.

I am not sure what is your intention of the title but do u mean u want research and statistics on how different education approaches impact the learning pace of the deaf children or deaf children's ability to learn as opposed to hearing kids?

I dont mean it to offend nor bash u but after reading different postings, I am starting to wonder what is it u are really looking for?

Thanks.

rockdrummer · 02-15-2007, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jessicacarlo

Hey I'm new, I have a deaf two year old daughter and like you I was trying to get statistics but I learn the hard way that tere's no accurate one the gov. for some reason never gives you the ones you should know but I know an organization that might provide you with info. Alliance for families with deaf children they go by affwdc.org. Are you from South Florida?

Hi and welcome. Thanks for the info. I am from the midwest.

rockdrummer · 02-15-2007, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

In regards to the title of the thread "Learning Pace of Deaf vs. Hearing Kids", I think it may be misleading cuz it gave me the impression that it is about comparing the learning abilities of deaf children to the learning abilities of hearing kids. If that is the case, then the answer is really easy. Deaf kids are capable of learning at the same pace as hearing kids. Some can learn faster or some will be slower. As long as they dont have any congitive disabilities, their brains work just like hearing kids' brains at birth. The next 5 years will become critical for the deaf children's brain development depending on language accessibility.

I am not sure what is your intention of the title but do u mean u want research and statistics on how different education approaches impact the learning pace of the deaf children or deaf children's ability to learn as opposed to hearing kids?

I dont mean it to offend nor bash u but after reading different postings, I am starting to wonder what is it u are really looking for?

Thanks.

Shel, Sorry for any misunderstanding. I am looking for statistics on exactly what the title of the thread indicates. The learning pace of Deaf vs. Hearing kids. To be more specific, what do the statistics show regarding the education level of Deaf kids vs. hearing kids that graduate from High School. Pace simply means how fast are they learning compared to hearing kids. I'm not talking about comparing kids that have other special needs beyond hearing loss. I also understand there are overacheivers and that sucess is dependant on teaching methods amongst many other things.

What I have gathered so far from the information provided, is that near half of the deaf kids graduating high school are at a 4th grade education level. To me, that indicates the learning pace of near half the deaf kids is only 1/3 as fast as hearing kids.

My objective for creating this thread is to find out if deaf kids are at a disadvantage in the educational system (for whatever reasons) when compared to hearing kids. From what I have seen it appears that nearly half are. Please correct me if I have misunderstood something or if there are statistics that prove otherwise.

shel90 · 02-15-2007, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Shel, Sorry for any misunderstanding. I am looking for statistics on exactly what the title of the thread indicates. The learning pace of Deaf vs. Hearing kids. To be more specific, what do the statistics show regarding the education level of Deaf kids vs. hearing kids that graduate from High School. Pace simply means how fast are they learning compared to hearing kids. I'm not talking about comparing kids that have other special needs beyond hearing loss. I also understand there are overacheivers and that sucess is dependant on teaching methods amongst many other things.

What I have gathered so far from the information provided, is that near half of the deaf kids graduating high school are at a 4th grade education level. To me, that indicates the learning pace of near half the deaf kids is only 1/3 as fast as hearing kids.

My objective for creating this thread is to find out if deaf kids are at a disadvantage in the educational system (for whatever reasons) when compared to hearing kids. From what I have seen it appears that nearly half are. Please correct me if I have misunderstood something or if there are statistics that prove otherwise.

Ok thanks for clarifying.

Yea, I agree about the learning pace of deaf kids is only 1/3 as fast as hearing kids and now the next thing is to find the source of the problem. Is it lack of language access during the first 5 years, oral-only approach, ASL-only approach, bi-bi approach, the curriculm not meeting the learning needs of deaf children (I have one problem with the public school's language arts curriculm that we adopted...tooo many lessons on phonetics or decoding), quality of teachers at the school, quality of parental involvement, the child's abilitiy to hear, or it could be ALLL of these variables that can have a postiive or negative impact on the learning pace?

jillio · 02-15-2007, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Shel, Sorry for any misunderstanding. I am looking for statistics on exactly what the title of the thread indicates. The learning pace of Deaf vs. Hearing kids. To be more specific, what do the statistics show regarding the education level of Deaf kids vs. hearing kids that graduate from High School. Pace simply means how fast are they learning compared to hearing kids. I'm not talking about comparing kids that have other special needs beyond hearing loss. I also understand there are overacheivers and that sucess is dependant on teaching methods amongst many other things.

What I have gathered so far from the information provided, is that near half of the deaf kids graduating high school are at a 4th grade education level. To me, that indicates the learning pace of near half the deaf kids is only 1/3 as fast as hearing kids.

My objective for creating this thread is to find out if deaf kids are at a disadvantage in the educational system (for whatever reasons) when compared to hearing kids. From what I have seen it appears that nearly half are. Please correct me if I have misunderstood something or if there are statistics that prove otherwise.

Deaf kids are definately at a disadvantage, but it has more to do with methodolgy and curriculum than it does with learning pace. Also, the statistics that provide you with informationthat deaf kids are at a 4th grade level are taken from tests that are standardized for hearing children and threfore do not accurately reflect the knowledge that deaf children do possess. If a test question is formated in a way that does not prmit comprehension of what is being asked, then the deaf child cannot possibly answer the question in a way that truly reflects their knowledge. These tests are all very verbally based, not language based, and testing procedures recommended for deaf students are not followed more often than they are followed.

Many standardized tests have been revised for use with the deaf population, and when these tests are used, and proper testing procedure is followed, quite different results are obtained. The problems we see in educating deaf students lies more with teaching practices and innacurrate expectations than it does with the actual capabilities of the deaf student.

jillio · 02-15-2007, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Ok thanks for clarifying.

Yea, I agree about the learning pace of deaf kids is only 1/3 as fast as hearing kids and now the next thing is to

02-12-2007, 11:20 PM	#45 (permalink)
deafskeptic AAACCK! I got BORGED! Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,449	I meant that deaf are not expected to do as well as hearing do when it come to learning stuff. This is often reflected in courses for the deaf in either mainstream or deaf. I've never taken a biological course nor do I know many of the grammatical rules for English. I remember my little sister had to explain what a helping verb is to me. That's because I spent most of my life in special ed. I recall that one poster had to color in anatomical stuff for her science class. You'd never see stuff like this for hearing classes. Both my friend and I had better English skills than many of our hearing peers so we felt insulted when our teacher gave us what was either a kindergarten level or first grade level dictionary. We were in 7 grade at the time. __________________ Left ear implanted with Med-El on April 24 2007. Activated on May 9th.

02-15-2007, 09:34 AM	#47 (permalink)
shel90 Sun Whorshipper Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A Desert Rat that has found herself in Maryland Posts: 16,119 Blog Entries: 1	In regards to the title of the thread "Learning Pace of Deaf vs. Hearing Kids", I think it may be misleading cuz it gave me the impression that it is about comparing the learning abilities of deaf children to the learning abilities of hearing kids. If that is the case, then the answer is really easy. Deaf kids are capable of learning at the same pace as hearing kids. Some can learn faster or some will be slower. As long as they dont have any congitive disabilities, their brains work just like hearing kids' brains at birth. The next 5 years will become critical for the deaf children's brain development depending on language accessibility. I am not sure what is your intention of the title but do u mean u want research and statistics on how different education approaches impact the learning pace of the deaf children or deaf children's ability to learn as opposed to hearing kids? I dont mean it to offend nor bash u but after reading different postings, I am starting to wonder what is it u are really looking for? Thanks. __________________ ~Shel~ "A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

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02-15-2007, 08:50 AM	#46 (permalink)
Casperman Proud Dada of an Autistic Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: state of fast horses, fast ladies and hillbilly drunkards Posts: 411	i want to add soemthing.. at Kyschool for the deaf.. my 2nd sonis in kindergaten.. he is learning add, and subtract in math classes and english and spelling.. iwonder why didnt me and my ex got that in past..and i askedmy best buddy whos a instructor aide there he works with my son.. he said that ky have a law called no child left behind i m not sure if it covers usa too but that is the reason why they are teachin math, spellin etc at early age..