GoldenLeaf74

I dont care about that program, I still think it's WRONG by contril the hearinig world.

I am SICK OF hearing control on Deaf World.

PERIOD.

ASL should be powerful by Deaf control. That's all I care.

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loml

jillio,

You persona is one of a literate hearing acedemic who has spent hours and hours of your life justifying what you do. You have found yourself a comfortable little niche, part of a narcissistic group, where you sit back spewing post secondary b*llshit and feeling very important.

You cannot admit that Cued Speech, something easily learned, can negate your "research", because you cannot admit it. Fear of loss of face within the academic community, I seen it all, more times than I can count.

__________________
- Dr. Edward C. Merrill, Jr. past president of Gallaudet

Jolie77

Mod's Note: The thread has been merged since it is relevant to discuss the same topic on one thread instead of two threads.

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“Tough girls come from New York. Sweet girls, they're from Georgia. But us Kentucky girls, we have fire and ice in our blood. We can ride horses, be a debutante, throw left hooks, and drink with the boys, all the while making sweet tea, darlin'. And if we have an opinion, you know you're gonna hear it.” - Ashley Judd

Cousin Vinny

I'll assume you're familiar with the Bi/Bi method of Deaf education. Previously, I had been a Teacher of the Deaf and for a while, I contemplated the idea of having a bi/bi approach in educating my students, but with a twist;

I would use Cued English for the reading assignments, and ASL for everything else. That way, the narrow prism afforded by Cued English is trained upon Deaf children in their literacy efforts. While Cued English can also double as a communications method, I prefer to look at it as a literacy tool in mastering English, no more or no less.

However, I never got the chance, for reasons beyond my control. My #1 problem was that I did not know cueing. At first, I thought I could learn a little here and there, and be somewhat ahead of my students, and learn Cueing along the way. But I quickly realized that for each consonant, I had to learn every possible vowel pair to go with it. All of a sudden, I felt I had to be truly fluent in Cued English in order to use it in my classroom.Granted, I'll give you that Cued (Speech) English has been mischaracterized, misunderstood, and glossed over in so many years from so many people involved in Deaf Education. Nonetheless, I'll take a stab;

Deaf people have long denigrated Cued Speech, myself included. It relied on lip-reading and looked too artifical for practical use. It also relied on residual hearing and speech ability for it to be truly effective. As many Deaf people can attest, we rebel at the slightest hint of speech/aural therapy!

However, it appears that Cued Speech now has 'reinvented' itself to be Cued English, with emphasis on literacy. The lipreading/speech component has been deprecated or given little emphasis. It is along those lines where I would consider using Cued English in aiding young Deaf students in reading/writing English.

Also, more emphasis has been placed on early language acquisition aspect of Cued English, where the family picks it up and starts using it with their Deaf child, long before school starts. This alone has made Cued English all that more appealing to me, as I have encountered students coming from language-deprived households.

As for why Cued English has not been in widespread use in Deaf educational settings all over America, I really am at a loss. Literacy remains the #1 problem in Deaf education, and I find it truly surprising that Deaf educators are still grappling with this vexing problem for so long. If not Cued English, then something else has to come forward! Maybe as some commentators have suggested, too much has been invested in the current state of Deaf education, to consider fresh new alternatives, even those as old as Cued English.I share the same exact concern. There need to be scientific studies done in using Cued English and the results to be measured objectively as much as possible. To date, I have not heard of any significant studies done with a large sample and reliable data collection on how Cued English affects literacy efforts of Deaf children.

jillio

Obviously, you personal assumptions regarding people are no more accuract than your analytical ability when attempting to analyze any other subjuect. I don't need to justify what I do--the fact that I perform a needed service is justification enough. Prhaps if you were engaged in meaningful employment, you would understand that concept.

What is it, exactly that you think you know so well that I do? Until you have suffiecient information to support your assessments, I suggest you find another way to occupy your time. If you can't respond intelligently, and engage in support of your argument in a civil way, you simply resort to insult in an attempt to intimidate. That , in itself, suggests that your argument is not as strong as you would like it to be, and is really based more on faulty opinion that knowledge.

I don't worry about loss of face within my academic community. It is not my research that I have cited. And if you can negate my cited findings, then by all mean, do so. If you can do the research and find the citations, it won't be necessary for you to attempt intimidation through insult. You will actually possess knowledge! A new concept for you, no doubt.

jillio

Used in the way you propose allows for the limitations to be exploited, and would probably provide a useful tool improving literature. That would remain to be seen once a program has been in place for some time. And I would be interested to know what the results of such a program would be.

I have never said that CS was totally useless. I simply said that its practical application was very very limited. However, if one uses those limitations as a tool, CS could very well be effective.

I am not so certain of its value in language acquisition. I believe a model has to able to much more conceptually representative than CS. The true measure of acquired language is the internalized concept that can then be generalized. I'm very sceptical that CS provides that conceptual base, but I do think it has possibilites for making that internalized concept recognizable as an English symbol.

Thanks for the intelligent discussion.

loml

jillio,

1. You are quite capable of finding current research on literacy, Cued Speech and deaf education.

2. Hearing people romanced by ASL, dedicating careers and lives to the language, are never satisfied with the research in Cued Speech .

3. Your lack of knowledge continously permeates the statements that you make regarding Cued Speech.

4. It is very apparent that you are not experienced with Cued Speech, Cued Speech used in conjunction with ASL and the impact of this type of biligualism.

5. It is your choice to feel intimidated by my statements.

__________________
- Dr. Edward C. Merrill, Jr. past president of Gallaudet

loml

Eyeth,

Introduction of the term Cued English is best explained by the following:

Cued Speech is the system, which includes over 55 languages and dialects. English (or cued French etc.) so people will have a clearer idea of what we are talking about.

Cued Speech has always been about literacy. The NCSA has never platformed it as a tool for oral education.

Eyeth this is a source you will find that which you seek:
Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education

__________________
- Dr. Edward C. Merrill, Jr. past president of Gallaudet

jillio

You are correct in your statement that I am capable of finding research on CS. It is the limited amount of research available that is a concern to me. Further, the research I have located is what I base my assessments on.

I did not say I was intimidated by your statements--quite the contrary. I said, you were attempting to intimidate. Big difference!!

My dedication to ASL and the culture surrounding it came from my experiences as a parent of a deaf child. My job, while it does involve deaf students, also includes students with all forms of disability and diversity. However, the job where I am currently employed is also secondary to my pursuit of my graduate degree.

Looks like you are confusedon more that a few points.

loml

jillio,

You could be a poster hearing person for "spreading the word" of ASL.

Through your own admission the reasearch you have located (perhaps the venue you use practises censorship) has formulated your views/opinions of Cued Speech/Cued English.


If you ever decide to have hands on career experience with Cued English/Cued Speech, Cued English/Cued Speech/ASL deaf/hearing and multiple diversities, your view/opinion may hold some credence.

Until then .............

oh and Jillio,

I was not attempting to intimidate you, for you to mention intimidation, somewhere along the way you felt you were.

__________________
- Dr. Edward C. Merrill, Jr. past president of Gallaudet

jillio

My research comes from scholarly journals and books from professionals practicing in the field. They are all peer reviewed, and therefore, are considered to be the most credible sources available. Try it sometime. You might find some information that is actually applicable rather than the bs you get from the sales pitching websites you seem to prefer.

My experience is all hands on. I interpret for two deaf students currently at the post secondary level. One with CI, one hh with HA.

Don't try to analyze my reactions. My comment was not regarding my feelings, but your choice of words and attempts to argue your side through personal insult. Obviously, that went over your head as well. If I were intimidated, I would not have continued to respond. That is the whole purpose of intimidation--to win the argument through default, rather than through credible presentation of information. It is the tool of the lesser informed.

jillio

Oh, and thank you! While you intended it as a negative comment, I find your perception of me as a hearing poster child extolling the virtues of ASL to be a wonderful compliment. If you had true understanding of the language, you would know that.

webexplorer

Can a deaf child recongizes two different words when a person uses a cued speech like this "beach" or "peach"? (Without saying a sentence - just these words)

A sign language can be very helpful. I assume that Cued is a good one, too. But, you are right that it is not possible for a person to use both signs at the same time. That could be a big problem ....unless if you have four arms.

ismi

That's the whole idea behind cueing, is making those differences clear.

jillio

Yeah, with cued speech, a different handshape made near the mouth would show that one word started with a b and one started with a p. Like I've said before, it shows phonetic differences, but not the difference in concept. ASL shows the different concept--that a beach is not a peach.

loml

Jillio,

You opionions regarding Cued English/Cued Speech are moot.
You so don't get it, cueing is not conceptual.
You falsely represent cueing here, and continuing to do so will continue the need for me to state the obvious.

Being an interpreter, of course you wouldn't want people to have cueing as a viable tool. You wouldn't have such a powerful job then would you.

People like you are such hypocrites and self serving.

I have met enough of your type to know one when I see one. You are the type that I wish would retire.

__________________
- Dr. Edward C. Merrill, Jr. past president of Gallaudet

loml

webexplorer: Of course the words are cued differently and the child would have English spelling skills equal to or surpassing that of their hearing peers.
When a deaf child has English cued to them, they process the language similiar to that of their hearing peers, as strange as that may seem, it is indeed true.

For clarification, it has not been stated that ASL and cueing were used simultaneously. They can be effectively used in conjunction with each other.

__________________
- Dr. Edward C. Merrill, Jr. past president of Gallaudet

loml

Take it as you wish to see it.

__________________
- Dr. Edward C. Merrill, Jr. past president of Gallaudet

jillio

No it is you that doesn't get it. Maybe you need some cued speech to help you with your literacy. I SAID--CS represents the phonetic structure and ASL represents the concept. READ, for Christ's sake!

jillio

Don't be such an idiot. There you go again with the insults and the attempts at intimidation. You can't state the obvious--you don't even get the obvious. I said I interpret for two deaf students currently--not that interpreting is my only profession, or even that it is the only source of employment for me. You need to get a grip.

jillio

And we all know your type. Closed minded, opinionated, but can't back up the opinions they hold. Most people call it ignorant.

jillio

Statistic, please, on the spelling skills.

ismi

Jillio may be biased against CS, and she may not realize that CS' phonemic (rather than conceptual) basis is not a strike against the language, but I think this statement is over the top, not least because there is a need (and I suspect a greater demand than supply) for CS transliterators.

I would tentatively agree with you that some of the people who are strongly against cueing are against it in part because they have so much invested in ASL; but to suggest that they - or Jillio in particular - work as interpreters in order to have power over their clients is insulting and inaccurate. At best, it is a serious exaggeration; at worst, it is nothing more than an ad hominem attack.

A lot of the resentment against cueing - and I've seen some of it first hand, in my attempts to find people to practice my cueing with - comes from historical mistrust of oralism. Whether that link is true or not, it doesn't do much good to foster distrust by making inflammatory statements. Even if the target of those statements is not going to agree with you anyway, it doesn't present a good image to bystanders.

loml

Indeed my approach has been harsh, that is the reality of the deaf education debate.

My over the top statement is what it is. Many people in the field of deaf education/support services etc. will not/cannot look at what they are doing.

These same people cannot let go of the past, but profess to be working in the "best interest of the child and family". I have seen the results of this approach and it has tragic impact on the futures of many children.

There is no logic to a debate with people who refuse to see the truth.
The research is never good enough for them, even when it is world wide.

The spoon feeding is over.

__________________
- Dr. Edward C. Merrill, Jr. past president of Gallaudet

jillio

Yes, I do have a dedication to ASL because language acquisition involves, to the largest degree, acquisition of conceptual information. Discrimination of phonemes does not necessarily correlate with increased literacy. Positive correlation exists only in ability to discriminate phonetic markers. Discrimination of these markers does not increase the conceptual understanding. Knowing that "peach" and "beach" sound different because of beginning phonemes, and adding visual cues to make these differences visable does nothing to illustrate the conceptual difference between a beach and a peach. For that, a language that provides conceptual information is necessary.

It is the same as one who increases vocabulary through memorization of numerous word lists, but has no idea of the meaning construed through the use of the word memorized and consistently uses the word out of context. Has this individual truly increased his vocabulary, or has he simply given his long term memory some exercise? Concept must naturally come before discrimination. It is concept that gives that which is perceived meaning.

mom

It seems that a major benefit of Cued English has been missed in this discussion. The situation which I refer to occurs when a deaf child is part of a hearing family. If this child's primary language is ASL, he or she often has no real language model in the home. Too frequently hearing parents do not become proficient at ASL in a rapid enough manner to keep up with the language needs of a growing child. A hearing parent who chooses Cued English (or Cued Spanish or any other Cued Language) as a communication modality does not need to first learn English (or Spanish or whatever their native language is). It is already the language of the home. They only need to learn how to visually represent the sounds so that their child will be included in the conversations around him or her. While so many people talk of Deaf Culture, they make no mention of the fact that this may not be the culture of the home. A child should grow up in the culture of their home. When the culture of the home is Deaf Culture then it is their culture, but if the culture of the home relies on spoken English, then the child needs to understand, and be fluent in, the same English as his or her parents. They should understand the same colloquialisms, the same jokes, the same expressions. I don't mean to imply that there's no place for multi-culturalism, in fact the more one learns of another culture, the more understanding and compassion is generated. Learning multiple languages is one component that enhances such understanding. But it is important for a growing child to have a proficient 1st language model within the home, no matter what that language might be.

I could go on and profess the improvements in literacy rates which have been researched and published. (LaSasso and Metzger 1998 Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education), (LaSasso, Crain, & Leybaert, 2003 Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Eduation), (Leybaert, 1993 Psychological perspectives on deafness), but the publications do speak for themselves.

Cousin Vinny

Came across this funny video clip; I don't know if the actor is actually using Cued English or just making it up as he went along. As far as I know, there was never a Cued Club at Gallaudet, either.

Now, the News at Gallaudet

And yes, the actor also did a similiar skit using the Rochester Method, so it appears no manually-coded English Sign Language model is safe from skewering!

shel90

Have u ever tried lipreading English without any hearing at all? Try it and u can understand how your deaf child would feel trying to understand what everyone is saying. It is very tough..trust me cuz I was in the same shoes as that deaf child in a hearing family who wont learn ASL. Learning some ASL is better than nothing...

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Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

ismi

I have, and the difficulty of reading lips is *exactly* why cued speech was developed.

ismi

Yeah, that's not cueing. Given all the complaints I've seen about hearing people mocking ASL, I'm surprised to see a Deaf person mocking another individual's choice of language like that. Actually, I guess it's not surprising - just unfortunate.