Shooting at Ft Hood; 7 dead, 20+wounded - Page 10

sallylou · 11-10-2009, 12:18 AM

Wow. The plot thickens.

Nidal Hasan Tried To Contact Al Qaida, US Officials Knew Months Ago

Quote:

"It is not known whether the intelligence agencies informed the Army that one of its officers was seeking to connect with suspected al Qaeda figures, the officials said," ABC writes.

Jiro · 11-10-2009, 12:26 AM

At Fort Hood, Some Violence Is Too Familiar

Quote:

FORT HOOD, Tex. — Staff Sgt. Gilberto Mota, 35, and his wife, Diana, 30, an Army specialist, had returned to Fort Hood from Iraq last year when he used his gun to kill her, and then took his own life, the authorities say. In July, two members of the First Cavalry Division, also just back from the war with decorations for their service, were at a party when one killed the other.

That same month, Staff Sgt. Justin Lee Garza, 28, under stress from two deployments, killed himself in a friend’s apartment outside Fort Hood, four days after he was told no therapists were available for a counseling session. “What bothers me most is this happened while he was supposed to be on suicide watch,” said his mother, Teri Smith. “To this day, I don’t know where he got the gun.”

Fort Hood is still reeling from last week’s carnage, in which an Army psychiatrist is accused of a massacre that left 13 people dead. But in the town of Killeen and other surrounding communities, the attack, one of the worst mass shootings on a military base in the United States, is also seen by many as another blow in an area that has been beset by crime and violence since the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq began. Reports of domestic abuse have grown by 75 percent since 2001. At the same time, violent crime in Killeen has risen 22 percent while declining 7 percent in towns of similar size in other parts of the country.

The stresses are seen in other ways, too.

Since 2003, there have been 76 suicides by personnel assigned to Fort Hood, with 10 this year, according to military officials.

A crisis center on base is averaging 60 phone calls a week from soldiers and family members seeking various help for problems from suicide to anger management, with about the same volume of walk-ins and scheduled appointments.

In recent days, Army officials have pledged to redouble their efforts to help soldiers cope with deployment. The base, which uses some of the most innovative approaches in the military, plans to expand a help center set up in September that provides a variety of assistance to soldiers, including breathing techniques for handling combat stress and goal-setting skills upon their return.

“Fort Hood is very attuned to this,” said Col. William S. Rabena, who runs the help center known as the Resiliency Center Campus. “It’s the only thing to do.”

The Army has also sent an array of specialists to Fort Hood to help soldiers and their families, including chaplains, social workers, combat stress specialists, counselors and experts in crisis and disaster behavioral management. Army officials said more such assistance might be sent to the base.

But interviews with soldiers who have deployed one or more times to Iraq or Afghanistan, and with family members of those who died violently back here in Texas, show that the Army’s efforts are still falling short. Even some alarm bells rung by the Army leadership have gone unanswered.

In July, two weeks after Sergeant Garza’s death, Lt. Gen. Rick Lynch, then the base commander, told Congress he was in dire need of more mental health professionals. “That’s the biggest frustration,“ he told a House subcommittee. “I’m short about 44 of what I am convinced I need at Fort Hood that I just don’t have.”

Among the medical personnel brought to Fort Hood to help deal with the growing mental health issues was Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, who arrived in July. Major Hasan is accused in the attacks last week, but little is known about what might have driven him.

“Our soldiers are coming back and not getting the help they need,” said Cynthia Thomas, an Army wife who runs a private assistance center for soldiers in Killeen called Under the Hood Café. “Whether it’s self-medicating, anger or violence, these are the consequences of war, and you have to think about all the people affected by soldiers coming home, the parents, spouses, children, brothers, sisters, aunts and cousins.”

Pfc. Michael Kern, of Riverside, Calif., said he tried unsuccessfully to obtain help for stress last year in Baghdad, but was ridiculed by an officer in front of his tanker unit. “He said he would have to impose mandatory sleeping times,” said Private Kern, 22, “and that health care was for people with serious problems.”

Back at Fort Hood, Private Kern said he had a breakdown that led to hospitalization and is now awaiting discharge at his request. If he had received therapy in Iraq, he said, “I might not be in this situation now.”

Military officials say the crime and violence associated with Fort Hood must be viewed with the base’s size in mind. With 53,000 soldiers assigned to the base, it has become the largest facility in the country, and much of the surrounding area is tied to the military through family or business.

Col. Edward McCabe, a Catholic chaplain at Fort Hood, said signs of fatigue and other strains are “rampant” on the base. “The numbers of divorces I’ve had to deal with are huge, the cases of physical abuse,” Colonel McCabe said. “Every night in my apartment complex some soldier and his wife are screaming and shouting at each other.“

The Army influences nearly every aspect of life in Killeen, a cotton town until the base moved in during World War II. About 55 miles north of Austin, the town straddles U.S. 190 and is split by a long corridor of strip malls. Most of the 102,000 residents are soldiers, their families or Army retirees. Business here and in the surrounding smaller communities like Belton and Harker Heights ebbs and flows around the first and 15th of each month — military paydays — and around deployments.

At The Killeen Daily Herald, which covers the base with a sympathetic ear to its military readers, employees see similar patterns play out with each troop rotation.

One day, it is a homecoming, with hundreds of families waving flags and homemade signs along T. J. Mills Boulevard leading into the base’s main gate. The next day, crime reports increase, especially cases of domestic violence. “Unfortunately, you see the trend every time there’s a homecoming, when the divisions come home,” said Olga Pena, the paper’s managing editor.

Nicolas Serna, the managing attorney of the local legal aid office, said requests for protective orders had steadily increased over the last several years.

He questioned whether Fort Hood was doing nearly enough for soldiers or for victims of domestic violence. A few years ago, he said, the base refused the group’s offer to provide legal assistance and to help with protection orders for families on Fort Hood.

Some social workers in the area see it differently. The Army, while not perfect, has been trying to address the situation, said Suzanne Armour, the director of programs at the Families in Crisis shelter in Killeen.

Michael Sibberson, the principal of Killeen High School, which has 1,880 students, a little over half with military parents, said in one sense the wars had helped the students relate to one another. On the other side, Mr. Sibberson said, the students are not getting the parental guidance they need because so many have parents deployed. That has led to poor grades, and more behavioral problems.

“Kids are not getting the support at the dinner table they need because Mom or Dad is not there,” he said, adding, “When you call the house you are likely to get Grandma, or a mom who says, ‘I am so full I don’t know what to do with him anymore.’ ”

Henry Garza, the district attorney for Bell County, which includes Killeen, said increases in crime might reflect the town’s rapid growth, though the federal crime data is adjusted for population changes. But the data may be understated because it does not count crimes prosecuted by the military authorities, who sometimes handle serious felonies and misdemeanors by active-duty soldiers even when they occur off base.

Base officials declined to release crime data without a Freedom of Information Act request.

Whether civilian or military official investigate deaths, the proceedings often leave families frustrated by the lack of clear answers.

The list of medals awarded to Sergeant Garza (no relation to the district attorney) tell of a good soldier. After two tours in Iraq, he shared a tight bond with unit members and missed them greatly when the Army sent him to a base in Georgia for additional training after a second deployment. He was troubled by a breakup with a girlfriend. And though he seldom spoke with his family about his combat tours, he once confided to his mother that he had a killed a person in Iraq. “He said, ‘It was him or me,’ ” Ms. Smith said. “But you could tell it troubled him.”

His family believes he did not get the care he needed, despite signs he had fallen into despair.

In June, he left the Georgia base without permission, and the Army tracked him to a hotel room in Paris, Tex. In a suicide note he sent to a friend before leaving, he said he wanted to end it close to his friends. Among his purchases was a shotgun.

Sergeant Garza was brought back to Fort Hood and committed for psychiatric care, first to a civilian hospital because there was no room at the base hospital, said his uncle, Gary Garza, who lives in Killeen. After three days, he was transferred to the base hospital. He was released after two weeks and assigned to take outpatient counseling.

“We thought he was doing better,” said his grandfather, Homer Garza, a retired command sergeant major who served in Korea and Vietnam and who himself had silently suffered for decades with post-traumatic stress.

In fact, Sergeant Garza had shared misgivings about his treatment at the base hospital with his uncle.

“He said he felt like he was getting really good treatment at the civilian hospital,” his uncle said. “He said the civilian doctors seemed to care more. And for the military doctors, it was just like a job for them.”

True or not, on July 7 Sergeant Garza received a message on his cellphone canceling what was to be his first outpatient appointment.

Though his family says the Army was supposed to be checking his apartment for guns and alcohol, that Sunday he put a pistol to his head and pulled the trigger. His mother later listened to the message.

“They said, ‘Sorry, we don’t have a counselor for you today,’ ” Ms. Smith said. “ ‘If you don’t hear back from us by Monday, give us a call.’ ”

my heart goes out to these soldiers who are having trouble coping with their issues

kokonut · 11-10-2009, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

That card looks like something an idiot would create to stir the fires of anti-Muslim hate. I shudder to think that anyone believes it is authentic.

Well, we already have that idiot.

Funny how the White House supposedly "forgot" to lower the flag at half mast?
What a woman can do Ramparts 360

Funny how Obama decided not to rush to judgement and wait until all verdicts are in about the Hasan case? But it was ok to rush to judgement about the Gates' incident? This guy is a walking conundrum.

kokonut · 11-10-2009, 01:26 AM

And the odd thing is that just like one of the 9/11 hijackers did, Hasan frequented a strip club just days before the attack.

Context of 'Before September 11, 2001: Hijackers Drink Alcohol and Watch Strip Shows, Especially towards Eve of Attacks'

sara1981 · 11-10-2009, 01:50 AM

update from Yahoo news

Investigators say Fort Hood suspect acted alone
Investigators say Fort Hood suspect acted alone - Yahoo! News

Quote:

WASHINGTON – The Army psychiatrist accused of the Fort Hood massacre is believed to have acted alone despite repeated communications — monitored by authorities — with a radical imam overseas, U.S. officials said Monday. The FBI will conduct an internal review of its handling of the information, they said.

An investigative official and a Republican lawmaker said Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan was in contact with Anwar al-Awlaki, an imam released from a Yemeni jail last year, 10 to 20 times. Despite that, no formal investigation was opened into Hasan, they said.

Investigative officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the case. Republican Rep. Pete Hoekstra of Michigan, the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, said it was his understanding Hasan and the imam exchanged e-mails that counterterrorism officials picked up.

Hasan, awake and talking to doctors, met his lawyer Monday in the Texas hospital where he is recovering under guard from gunshot wounds in the rampage Thursday that left 13 people dead and 29 injured. Officials said he will be tried in a military court, not a civilian one.

FBI Director Robert Mueller has ordered an internal inquiry to see whether the bureau mishandled worrisome information gathered about Hasan beginning in December 2008 and continuing into early this year.

Based on all the investigations since the attack, including a review of that 2008 information, the investigators said they have no evidence that Hasan had help or outside orders in the shootings.

Even so, they revealed the major had once been under scrutiny from a joint terrorism task force because of the series of communications going back months. Al-Awlaki is a former imam at a Falls Church, Va., mosque where Hasan and his family occasionally worshipped, and runs a Web site denouncing U.S. policy — a site that praised Hasan's alleged actions in the massacre as heroic.

Military officials were made aware of communications between the two, but because the messages did not advocate or threaten violence, civilian law enforcement authorities could not take the matter further, the officials said. The terrorism task force concluded Hasan was not involved in terrorist planning.

Officials said the content of those messages was "consistent with the subject matter of his research," part of which involved post-traumatic stress disorder stemming from U.S. combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

A law enforcement official said the communications consisted primarily of Hasan posing questions to the imam as a spiritual leader or adviser, and the imam did respond to at least some of those messages.

No formal investigation was ever opened based on the contacts, the officials said.

They said the decision to bring military charges instead of civilian criminal charges against Hasan did not mean it wasn't a terrorism case. But it is likely authorities would have had more reason to take the case to federal court if they had found evidence Hasan acted with the support or training of a terrorist group.

Investigators tried to interview Hasan on Sunday at the military hospital where he is held under guard, but he refused to answer and requested a lawyer, the officials said.

On Monday afternoon, Hasan's new civilian and military attorneys met him for about half an hour at Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio, said retired Col. John P. Galligan, who was hired by Hasan's family.

Galligan said Hasan asked for an attorney even though he is on sedatives and his condition is guarded.

"Given his medical condition, that's the smart move," Galligan told The Associated Press on Monday night. "Nobody from law enforcement will be questioning him."

Galligan said both he and Maj. Christopher E. Martin, Fort Hood's senior defense attorney, met Hasan. Galligan questioned whether Hasan can get a fair trial at Fort Hood, given President Barack Obama's planned visit to the base on Tuesday and public comments by the post commander, Lt. Gen. Robert Cone. Galligan also said he plans to raise the issue of Hasan's mental condition.

The most serious charge in military court is premeditated murder, which carries the death penalty.

The Army has not yet appointed a lead prosecutor in the case, said Fort Hood spokesman Tyler Broadway.

sara1981 · 11-10-2009, 01:54 AM

update from BBC

US Army attack 'not terror plot'
BBC NEWS | Americas | US Army attack 'not terror plot'

Quote:

The FBI says that a US Army major suspected of killing 13 people was not part of a "broader terrorist plot".

Maj Nidal Hasan was noticed by the FBI in December as part of an unrelated inquiry by the Joint Terrorism Task Force, but did not raise concerns.

Investigators said his communications with another person were in line with his job as an army psychiatrist.

Maj Hasan remains in hospital but has regained consciousness after being shot by police during the attack last week.

Thirteen people died and another 29 were injured in the shooting at Fort Hood base in Texas on Thursday.

The FBI said it had "no information to indicate that Maj Hasan had any co-conspirators or was part of a broader terrorist plot".

The bureau did not name the person Maj Hasan communicated with, and did not confirm reports that he was a radical cleric living in Yemen.

The content of the communications between Maj Hasan and the other individual was assessed as "consistent with research being conducted by Major Hasan in his position as a psychiatrist at the Walter Reed Medical Center" in Washington DC.

'No red flag'

"Because the content of the communications was explainable by his research and nothing else derogatory was found, the JTTF concluded that Major Hasan was not involved in terrorist activities or terrorist planning," the FBI said in a statement.

There were between 10 and 20 communications, beginning in December 2008 and continuing in 2009.

Content was of a social nature as well as "religious guidance".

They did not include the sort of threatening or inciting language that would have triggered an investigation.

A senior government official said the "general tenor of the communications was benign".

The communications contained "no red flag", according to the official.

Senior investigators say Maj Hassan, who is conscious and has called for a lawyer, is to be charged in a military court, rather than the US District Court.

Motive unclear

Investigators also said that being on the FBI's radar would not have been enough to prevent Maj Hassan from legally obtaining a weapon.

The FBI investigation has not identified a motive, and a number of possibilities remain under consideration.

Some reports said Maj Hasan, a 39-year-old US-born Muslim, was unhappy about being deployed to Afghanistan.

FBI Director Robert Mueller has ordered a review of how the agency dealt with information about Maj Hasan.

Senior US Senator Joe Lieberman has said he plans to open a congressional investigation into whether the shootings were a terrorist attack.

Mr Lieberman also said he hoped to determine whether the army missed signs that Maj Hasan may have harboured extreme views.

kokonut · 11-10-2009, 02:34 AM

This thing need to be looked into a bit more deeply. Sen. Lieberman is right. A congressional investigation is warranted.

sara1981 · 11-10-2009, 02:52 AM

updates from People magazines websites

Ft. Hood Hero Cop 'Deeply Touched' by America's Prayers
Ft. Hood Hero Cop 'Deeply Touched' by America's Prayers : People.com

Quote:

While recovering from three gunshot wounds, Sgt. Kimberly Munley issued her first public statement Monday since the Fort Hood rampage, returning the gratitude that Americans have showered on her.

"Kimberly Munley and family would like to extend their thanks and appreciation for all of the thoughts and concerns surrounding Kim from around the nation," reads the statement, issued through her hospital. "They are deeply touched by the outpouring of strength, thoughts and prayers that have been sent their way. At this time, the main concern for Kim's family is her safe and rapid recovery."

Munley, 34, underwent her second surgery at Metroplex Hospital in Killeen, Texas, and "is currently in good condition," the statement says.

"The family would also like to extend their heartfelt condolences to all those affected by the tragedy on Fort Hood," adds the statement. "Mrs. Munley is very concerned with the well-being and safety of all involved and is hopeful that all injured will make a speedy recovery."

Cards and prayers can be sent via the hospital's Web site.

On the day of the Ft. Hood shootings, Munley cut short a trip to a garage to have her car fixed when news of a gunman at the Texas Army base came over the radio. The veteran sergeant sped to the scene within five minutes of the first report, pulled out her handgun, and fired at alleged shooter Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, who was finally incapacitated under the volley of bullets from Munley and her partner. She was shot twice in the leg and once in the wrist.

Munley, a member of the SWAT team for the civilian police department at Fort Hood, is a Tar Heel, graduating from high school in Wilmington, N.C., before becoming a cop in the beachside town of Wrightsville, N.C., despite her petite height of 5-feet 4-inches.

"She's a ball of fire," Munley's onetime partner, Wrightsville, N.C., police inspector Shaun Appler tells The New York Times. "She's a real good cop."

She joined the Fort Hood civilian police force in January 2008, but is in the process of moving to North Carolina, where her husband, a Special Forces soldier, has been reassigned. The couple have two children.

Comfortable with firearms since she was a child, Munley had hobbies that reflected her upbringing in the South and her teenage years near the beach: She loved to hunt, as well as surf. Neighbors and friends describe her as honest, friendly and fearless – she once took down a burglar in her neighborhood.

See what other readers have to say about this story – or leave a comment of your own

Maria · 11-10-2009, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I could have sworn that I previously posted the answer to #1, and I've been searching the thread but I can't find it. So, I guess I have to do it again.

Short answer: Muslims shouldn't be prohibited from joining our military solely on the basis of being Muslims.

#2 We don't have all the facts in yet to determine why he shot up the soldiers.

I am not sayin' "Muslims" that shouldn't be prohibited from joinin' our military. I am sayin' "Muslims" based on their religion because, they believe in "honor the killings". It's why I said Muslims shouldn't join the military. I find this difficult for me to understand why this man use the words "Allah Akbar" before shootin'. You know that I am for this country and I support troops, regardless their races or whatever their backgrounds are. Those troops are supposed to be for "country", not "killin'" troops. Yes, I can understand that bein' a military/troop is a very stressful job and it can stress their health and mind. I respect troops for their doin' job very well. That's my appreciation.

My question is : Is there any history that an American troop shot other troops just like this man ? I mean, by followin' his religion just like this man ? I am not sure if, I remember any .... :-/

souggy · 11-10-2009, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria

I am not sayin' "Muslims" that shouldn't be prohibited from joinin' our military. I am sayin' "Muslims" based on their religion because, they believe in "honor the killings". It's why I said Muslims shouldn't join the military. I find this difficult for me to understand why this man use the words "Allah Akbar" before shootin'. You know that I am for this country and I support troops, regardless their races or whatever their backgrounds are. Those troops are supposed to be for "country", not "killin'" troops. Yes, I can understand that bein' a military/troop is a very stressful job and it can stress their health and mind. I respect troops for their doin' job very well. That's my appreciation.

My question is : Is there any history that an American troop shot other troops just like this man ? I mean, by followin' his religion just like this man ? I am not sure if, I remember any .... :-/

It wasn't long ago soldiers used to yell "for God and Glory" before going over the top in the trenches... Regardless "Allah akbar" is ued in almost every situation from expressing happiness, to relieving stress, feeling blessed to praising or approving of someone... it;s pretty much a catch-all phrase for every significant event. Similar to how we use "thank God" even under fire.

And for the last sentence, you can find anyone with a similar mindset regardless of creed. Look at school shootings... how can you forget Columbine?

Foxrac · 11-10-2009, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria

I am not sayin' "Muslims" that shouldn't be prohibited from joinin' our military. I am sayin' "Muslims" based on their religion because, they believe in "honor the killings". It's why I said Muslims shouldn't join the military. I find this difficult for me to understand why this man use the words "Allah Akbar" before shootin'. You know that I am for this country and I support troops, regardless their races or whatever their backgrounds are. Those troops are supposed to be for "country", not "killin'" troops. Yes, I can understand that bein' a military/troop is a very stressful job and it can stress their health and mind. I respect troops for their doin' job very well. That's my appreciation.

My question is : Is there any history that an American troop shot other troops just like this man ? I mean, by followin' his religion just like this man ? I am not sure if, I remember any .... :-/

In bold, many muslims who commit to murder or bombing so they always say Allah at all time, that's very annoying and anyone who is uncomfortable with US military shouldn't join.

souggy · 11-10-2009, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxrac

In bold, many muslims who commit to murder or bombing so they always say Allah at all time, that's very annoying and anyone who is uncomfortable with US military shouldn't join.

He joined the military in 1997. When 9/11 happened, he wanted out of the military and had expressed that. People knew he didn't want to be in the US military for well over eight years now.

deafskeptic · 11-10-2009, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

yes. A few posters are pinning Hasan's action on Islamic religion... and even went far to say all Muslims should be banned from armed force. I just posted an article saying that the authorities has not established a motive yet. While Hasan was unconscious, we all have seen this many times. That's why we acted quickly to contain the racial war from breaking out.

Yes you did make a careful distinction. You POINTED out a tiny fact which is usually left ignored by many. That's why "Minutemen" image has been tarnished as racist vigilantes.

That is why people must calm down and not jump to conclusion. Let's not start anti-Muslim flaming or "Allah Akbar" or Al-Queda or whatsoever. As you said - Hasan is now awake and speaking.

Let's wait and see for facts to unravel.

Agreed. From what I can tell, this doesn't appear to be a terrorist thing but of course, I could be wrong. I have no idea what his motive is even though I can make guesses. I prefer facts to speculation and conspiracies which is why I'm not posting my guesses here. For all I know, I could be off the mark.

Maria · 11-10-2009, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

It wasn't long ago soldiers used to yell "for God and Glory" before going over the top in the trenches... Regardless "Allah akbar" is ued in almost every situation from expressing happiness, to relieving stress, feeling blessed to praising or approving of someone... it;s pretty much a catch-all phrase for every significant event. Similar to how we use "thank God" even under fire.

Care to provide a source ?

And for the last sentence, you can find anyone with a similar mindset regardless of creed. Look at school shootings... how can you forget Columbine?

I don't forget Columbine. Columbine wasn't about Ft. Hood here. We pay for the troops, not Columbine killers. "Columbine" killers were NOT our soliders. IF, anythin' should happen to our country, it is the troops who will take care of. That's my mainly point. Their job is for "peace and safety".

souggy · 11-10-2009, 08:39 AM

Look up "God and Glory" in Google with the quotations.

You will see it in the title of an book about Nelson, but ignore those-- although it is interesting to note that it is associated with a famous military officer.

It's also in many of the film reels for WW1 and WW2. It's a British thing though, but the phrase also entered Canadian and American lexicons.

It fell out of favour after WW1 because trench-warfare wasn't the norms of military combat since it wasn't about who was holding the most land, but who was the most mobile.

On a related note:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_cry Also note that they're not the only one that defer to a higher authority (be it Napoleon... Stalin... or just their religion's main figure.)

Either way, the whole Columbine reference was meant to point out that Hasan and the people involved in massacres and school shootings exhibited the same mentality REGARDLESS of their backgrounds-- and the scary thing is that, almost all of them are predictable. So a blanket policy or statement can't be used. Might as well ban all humans from the services if we're so worried about a group, and start training dogs or monkeys instead.

Maria · 11-10-2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxrac

In bold, many muslims who commit to murder or bombing so they always say Allah at all time, that's very annoying and anyone who is uncomfortable with US military shouldn't join.

It's what made 9/11 history on our America soil as it was never before.

Maria · 11-10-2009, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Look up "God and Glory" in Google with the quotations.

You will see it in the title of an book about Nelson, but ignore those-- although it is interesting to note that it is associated with a famous military officer.

It's also in many of the film reels for WW1 and WW2. It's a British thing though, but the phrase also entered Canadian and American lexicons.

It fell out of favour after WW1 because trench-warfare wasn't the norms of military combat since it wasn't about who was holding the most land, but who was the most mobile.

On a related note:
Battle cry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Also note that they're not the only one that defer to a higher authority (be it Napoleon... Stalin... or just their religion's main figure.)

Either way, the whole Columbine reference was meant to point out that Hasan and the people involved in massacres and school shootings exhibited the same mentality REGARDLESS of their backgrounds-- and the scary thing is that, almost all of them are predictable. So a blanket policy or statement can't be used. Might as well ban all humans from the services if we're so worried about a group, and start training dogs or monkeys instead.

I will read. Speakin' of trainin' dogs/or monkeys -- you may want to create a thread discussin' about this ?

Foxrac · 11-10-2009, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria

It's what made 9/11 history on our America soil as it was never before.

Yup, we haven't seen any terrorist attack for 8 years and thanks to Bush admin to adopt the anti-terrorist law, except for PATRIOT Act.

sallylou · 11-10-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan was attempting to make contact with an individual associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.

According to the officials, the Army was informed of Hasan's contact, but it is unclear what, if anything, the Army did in response.

Fort Hood Shooter Tried to Contact al Qaeda Terrorists, Officials Say - ABC News

Reba · 11-10-2009, 01:49 PM

The memorial service is about to begin. I'm watching it on TV. The display of the empty helmets, guns, and boots is very touching.

sallylou · 11-10-2009, 01:50 PM

Reba · 11-10-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria

[COLOR="DarkRed"]I am not sayin' "Muslims" that shouldn't be prohibited from joinin' our military. I am sayin' "Muslims" based on their religion because, they believe in "honor the killings". It's why I said Muslims shouldn't join the military.

I don't think all Muslims support "honor killings." I don't think just putting down "Islam" on the religion line of their paperwork is enough to keep someone out of the military.

Quote:

I find this difficult for me to understand why this man use the words "Allah Akbar" before shootin'.

I don't think anyone fully understands yet. We have to wait for a full investigation.

Quote:

...Those troops are supposed to be for "country", not "killin'" troops.

Yes, that goes without saying. We don't expect our troops to kill each other.

Quote:

Yes, I can understand that bein' a military/troop is a very stressful job and it can stress their health and mind. I respect troops for their doin' job very well. That's my appreciation.

We have to pray for them, and support them in any way we can.

Quote:

My question is : Is there any history that an American troop shot other troops just like this man ? I mean, by followin' his religion just like this man ? I am not sure if, I remember any .... :-/

There have been other American military members killing military members but not such a large number at once, especially on an American base.

Fragging happened during the Vietnam war, in Vietnam.

The following killings didn't happen in the USA but it was an American soldier who killed fellow soldiers:

Quote:

Army Soldier Is Convicted In Attack on Fellow Troops

By Manuel Roig-Franzia
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 22, 2005; Page A03

An Army sergeant who wanted to stop U.S. troops from killing his fellow Muslims was convicted by a military jury yesterday of murdering two colleagues and wounding 14 other soldiers in a chaotic grenade and rifle attack two days after the United States invaded Iraq.

Hasan Akbar, who turned 34 yesterday, faces the death penalty for the killings at Camp Pennsylvania in Kuwait, which prosecutors said were carefully planned to achieve "maximum carnage." The jury, which deliberated for 2 1/2 hours at Fort Bragg in Fayetteville, N.C., before delivering its guilty verdicts on murder and attempted-murder charges, will reconvene Monday for a death-penalty hearing.

Both the prosecution and the defense said that Akbar -- who became a Muslim as an adult -- wanted to stop the soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division from killing Muslims. A defense lawyer argued that Akbar was mentally ill.

The accusation that Akbar was responsible for the attack struck an emotional chord in a military culture built around camaraderie and loyalty -- the "band of brothers" creed. Akbar is the first U.S. service member prosecuted on charges of murdering fellow troops in wartime since the Vietnam War era.

The attack jarred Camp Pennsylvania not long after 1 a.m. March 23, 2003, as members of the 101st Airborne Division, known as the "Screaming Eagles," were preparing to move from central Kuwait to Iraq. Grenades were rolled into several tents, setting off loud explosions, and shots were fired.

In the commotion, medics discovered that many of the wounded were members of the 1st Brigade's senior command staff. A search turned up an American soldier, who was taken into custody and later identified as Akbar.

Capt. Robert McGovern, the military prosecutor in the case, said Akbar acted with a "cool mind" in executing the attack with stolen grenades, according to the Associated Press.

Defense attorney Maj. Dan Brookhart tried to undermine that accusation by saying that Akbar is mentally ill and was confused on the night of the attacks, not suffering from "the blues" as an Army psychiatrist testified. "It doesn't make sense," Brookhart said, according to the Associated Press. "This guy doesn't have the blues. He's mentally ill."

The initial shock of Akbar's arrest was followed by vexing questions about his possible motives. Military officials disclosed that he had been repeatedly disciplined for insubordination and was being held back from advancing with his unit -- the 326th Engineering Battalion. A spokesman for the 101st said he had an "attitude problem...."

Read the rest at:

Army Soldier Is Convicted In Attack on Fellow Troops (washingtonpost.com)

Eve · 11-10-2009, 03:32 PM

Fort Hood Suspect Warned of Muslim Threat Within Military - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

Quote:

The Army psychiatrist suspected of killing 13 people at Fort Hood reportedly warned senior Army physicians in 2007 that the military should allow Muslim soldiers to be released as conscientious objectors instead of fighting in wars to avoid "adverse events."

According to The Washington Post, Major Nidal Malik Hasan was supposed to make a presentation on a medical topic during his senior year as a psychiatric resident at Walter Reed Medical Center.

Instead, Hasan lectured his supervisors and two dozen mental health staff members on Islam, homicide bombings and threats the military could encounter from Muslims conflicted about fighting against other Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan.

A source who attended the presentation told the paper, "It was really strange. The senior doctors looked really upset."

The Powerpoint, entitled, "The Koranic World View As It Relates to Muslims in the U.S. Military," consisted of 50 slides, according to a copy obtained by the Post.

"It's getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims," Hasan said in the presentation.

Under a slide titled "Comments," he wrote: "If Muslim groups can convince Muslims that they are fighting for God against injustices of the 'infidels'; ie: enemies of Islam, then Muslims can become a potent adversary ie: suicide bombing, etc." [sic]

The last bullet point on that page reads simply: "We love death more then [sic] you love life!"

On the final slide, labeled "Recommendation," Hasan wrote: "Department of Defense should allow Muslims [sic] Soldiers the option of being released as 'Conscientious objectors' to increase troop morale and decrease adverse events."

Tousi · 11-10-2009, 03:40 PM

Hasan probably had the above thoughts but went with the lure of a free education and then wanted out.

Eve · 11-10-2009, 03:41 PM

Anyone that claims to be a pacifist and is not willing to go to war regardless of who that war is against, has no business joining the military...free education or not.

Jiro · 11-10-2009, 03:49 PM

well think about it - Hasan is in impossible situation..... wars against Iraq and Afghanistan. he took it as "War on Muslims." Let's take me for a pretend example -

I join Army because I love this country and I want to serve my public duty. Now.... several years later..... USA went to war with Korea. Things got pretty ugly and confusing. Many stories about innocent Koreans being killed, detained and aggressively interrogated. This would obviously affect me a great deal since I am Korean. and now.... I'm being ordered to go to Korea.

That would be a great deal of conflict and mental turmoil for me because I have to participate in war that kills Koreans.... my own kind. Would I just go ballistic and start killing like what Hasan did? absolutely not. I would go thru proper procedure and chain of command to request for change or something.

Army Command should have a decency to reassign me since this is obviously a conflict of interest for me. In Hasan's case - it is puzzling to why Army HQ hasn't done anything after his repeated requests and complaints.

Reba · 11-10-2009, 03:51 PM

Today's memorial service at Fort Hood was very dignified and sad. I'm now watching as people pass by the portraits of each of the deceased. Each soldier, airman, marine, and sailor, officer and enlisted, stops and renders a salute to each of the 13. Sigh....

Jiro · 11-10-2009, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eve

Anyone that claims to be a pacifist and is not willing to go to war regardless of who that war is against, has no business joining the military...free education or not.

kinda remind me of First Lt. Ehren Watada

Jiro · 11-10-2009, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Today's memorial service at Fort Hood was very dignified and sad. I'm now watching as people pass by the portraits of each of the deceased. Each soldier, airman, marine, and sailor, officer and enlisted, stops and renders a salute to each of the 13. Sigh....

gotta wait till I get home...

sallylou · 11-10-2009, 03:53 PM

I can't help but think of the poor man who lost both his wife and baby.

11-10-2009, 08:39 AM	#285 (permalink)
souggy Waiting at the Bus Stop Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 4,111	Look up "God and Glory" in Google with the quotations. You will see it in the title of an book about Nelson, but ignore those-- although it is interesting to note that it is associated with a famous military officer. It's also in many of the film reels for WW1 and WW2. It's a British thing though, but the phrase also entered Canadian and American lexicons. It fell out of favour after WW1 because trench-warfare wasn't the norms of military combat since it wasn't about who was holding the most land, but who was the most mobile. On a related note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_cry Also note that they're not the only one that defer to a higher authority (be it Napoleon... Stalin... or just their religion's main figure.) Either way, the whole Columbine reference was meant to point out that Hasan and the people involved in massacres and school shootings exhibited the same mentality REGARDLESS of their backgrounds-- and the scary thing is that, almost all of them are predictable. So a blanket policy or statement can't be used. Might as well ban all humans from the services if we're so worried about a group, and start training dogs or monkeys instead. __________________ Souggy's Blog Warning! Contains skewed comments & inane ramblings. May cause spontaneous human combustion

11-10-2009, 01:50 PM	#291 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,642	__________________ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education. – Mark Twain

11-10-2009, 03:49 PM	#296 (permalink)
Jiro YOU DOMESTIC DISSENT! Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: The Sopranos State Posts: 27,602	well think about it - Hasan is in impossible situation..... wars against Iraq and Afghanistan. he took it as "War on Muslims." Let's take me for a pretend example - I join Army because I love this country and I want to serve my public duty. Now.... several years later..... USA went to war with Korea. Things got pretty ugly and confusing. Many stories about innocent Koreans being killed, detained and aggressively interrogated. This would obviously affect me a great deal since I am Korean. and now.... I'm being ordered to go to Korea. That would be a great deal of conflict and mental turmoil for me because I have to participate in war that kills Koreans.... my own kind. Would I just go ballistic and start killing like what Hasan did? absolutely not. I would go thru proper procedure and chain of command to request for change or something. Army Command should have a decency to reassign me since this is obviously a conflict of interest for me. In Hasan's case - it is puzzling to why Army HQ hasn't done anything after his repeated requests and complaints. __________________ - Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

11-10-2009, 03:53 PM	#300 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,642	I can't help but think of the poor man who lost both his wife and baby. __________________ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education. – Mark Twain

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11-10-2009, 01:26 AM	#274 (permalink)
kokonut Banned Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 5,173	And the odd thing is that just like one of the 9/11 hijackers did, Hasan frequented a strip club just days before the attack. Context of 'Before September 11, 2001: Hijackers Drink Alcohol and Watch Strip Shows, Especially towards Eve of Attacks'

11-10-2009, 02:34 AM	#277 (permalink)
kokonut Banned Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 5,173	This thing need to be looked into a bit more deeply. Sen. Lieberman is right. A congressional investigation is warranted.

11-10-2009, 01:49 PM	#290 (permalink)
Reba Auntie Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 21,443	The memorial service is about to begin. I'm watching it on TV. The display of the empty helmets, guns, and boots is very touching.

11-10-2009, 03:40 PM	#294 (permalink)
Tousi Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 10,333	Hasan probably had the above thoughts but went with the lure of a free education and then wanted out.

11-10-2009, 03:41 PM	#295 (permalink)
Eve Goddess Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Paradise Posts: 1,518	Anyone that claims to be a pacifist and is not willing to go to war regardless of who that war is against, has no business joining the military...free education or not.

11-10-2009, 03:51 PM	#297 (permalink)
Reba Auntie Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 21,443	Today's memorial service at Fort Hood was very dignified and sad. I'm now watching as people pass by the portraits of each of the deceased. Each soldier, airman, marine, and sailor, officer and enlisted, stops and renders a salute to each of the 13. Sigh....