Wrong Perspective About Christians

[Teresh]

Saying that the tanakh is not inspired, but claiming that its books have prophecies in them (Remember saying that one about Jesus not bringing the kingdom. prophecy found in Micah, part of the Tanakh.).

I didn't say tht the Tanakh was not inspired, I said that the K'tuvim aren't. They don't even start with the same letter--How hard is it to see that they're different words?

You are not a Jew, so do not claim to represent the Jews.

I will give a voice to that which is silent to oppose the boisterous voice of the arrogant Christian.

You refuse to acknowledge the truth when it is set clearly in front of you (when you said multiple times that there was no preparation for a temple to be built.).

Considering you haven't presented a single piece of evidence suggesting the Temple is actually being rebuilt besides your own flagrant extrapolations and assumptions on current events, you really haven't made a case here.

I have yet to contradict myself.

That goes also for me.

THat is because I have revealed a new facet of my argument each time.

If by "revealing a new facet" you mean "changing entirely when you've lost your base", then yes, you have.

Bec all came at one time with different issue which make it all confusion plus like I was shocked you took netrox post and put it me by claiming I said you are a jews.

If I did that (and I may well have, I was splicing multiple posts together at various points) then I am very sorry. I did not intend to make any such errors. I certainly would not have intentionally misquoted you, that is not my way.

 

[sculleywr]

I didn't say tht the Tanakh was not inspired, I said that the K'tuvim aren't. They don't even start with the same letter--How hard is it to see that they're different words?



I will give a voice to that which is silent to oppose the boisterous voice of the arrogant Christian.



Considering you haven't presented a single piece of evidence suggesting the Temple is actually being rebuilt besides your own flagrant extrapolations and assumptions on current events, you really haven't made a case here.



That goes also for me.



If by "revealing a new facet" you mean "changing entirely when you've lost your base", then yes, you have.



If I did that (and I may well have, I was splicing multiple posts together at various points) then I am very sorry. I did not intend to make any such errors. I certainly would not have intentionally misquoted you, that is not my way.

I provided a Seattle Times article that spoke of cornerstones having been furnished.
You ARE changing your argument. You already mentioned that the tanakh was not inspired. And there were multiple authors to the book of psalms. Some were prophets. And I haven't changed my argument yet. My major argument is that Jesus was in fact the Messiah. I have not said that anything was wrong with each argument. Debating in the real world is fluid. It flows from point to point. I bring what I do on the "hot seat," into the forum. There is no point to dwelling too long on minutiae. You repeatedly posted the reason is that the prophecies in Isaiah shouldn't be considered because they were from a bad translation. They are from a translation accepted by scholars across the world. Your translation can't be found anywhere. If this were a hot-seat debate, you would be required to show your credentials in Hebrew linguistics. It would be like being an interpreter for BSL with an ASL certification. It just wouldn't happen. Finally, You believe so much in your own beliefs that you don't even consider that you are among the minority. Even the least outspoken groups have an online website. I did a google, goodsearch, and Ask.com search for the topics of your arguments, and found less than a couple thousand. The Jewish beliefs I base my claim on, a couple million. Unless you are saying that the minority numbers in the millions, you have no leg to stand on.

 

[sculleywr]

Now, would someone like to open a debate on the perspectives people take on Christianity? The rights or wrongs of those beliefs, and a reason to hold those beliefs, let us debate. Teresh, I refuse to listen to your posts, so you might just want to open your own thread.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

Ok Teresh, I know you think christian is shallow about judiasm, but its not true and even you grew up church, but based who preach, bec some churches does not have the depth of whatever they teach. I been some churches are like that, till found a right church that has a very depth of the Gospel and the purposes. Now, I know Jesus is the Messiah, because there are many many verses prophesied that matched Jesus, but not *all* has been fulfilled. Now, I won't discus further till know why what part doesn't fulfill of Jesus you don't believe He is a Messiah. Will you care to explain?

 

[Teresh]

I provided a Seattle Times article that spoke of cornerstones having been furnished.

If I went and learned masonry, I could make cornerstones too. Like I said before, a few nutjobs claiming legitimacy does not reflect consensus.

You ARE changing your argument. You already mentioned that the tanakh was not inspired.

I never said that. Re-read the thread. Not once did I say that the Tanakh itself was not at least partly divinely inspired.

I have not said that anything was wrong with each argument.

You have, however, made a number of claims that are clearly untrue, such as that the Temple is being rebuilt at this time. You have also on several occassions attempted to change what I said in order to make your case. And when I call you on it, you simply reiterate your false statement of what I said and claim that I'm changing what I said when it was, in fact, you who attempted to doctor my words.

You repeatedly posted the reason is that the prophecies in Isaiah shouldn't be considered because they were from a bad translation. They are from a translation accepted by scholars across the world.

Yes, Christian scholars, not Jewish scholars. The distinction needs to be made because if you think scholars are without bias, regardless of if they are Jews or Christians, you are deluding yourself.

Finally, You believe so much in your own beliefs that you don't even consider that you are among the minority.

I realise I'm among the minority, but then again, so are you. The majority of the world's Christians are Catholics and the Vatican's official position is that the Jews do not need to be converted.

Even the least outspoken groups have an online website. I did a google, goodsearch, and Ask.com search for the topics of your arguments, and found less than a couple thousand. The Jewish beliefs I base my claim on, a couple million. Unless you are saying that the minority numbers in the millions, you have no leg to stand on.

You base your claim on Christian beliefs, not Jewish beliefs. That said, you erroneously consider them to be the same, a hallmark of Evangelical Christianity.

Teresh, I refuse to listen to your posts,

Your choice. I will still read and respond to yours even if you choose to ignore my responses.

so you might just want to open your own thread.

I have no reason to. I'm not out to convert people.

Now, I won't discus further till know why what part doesn't fulfill of Jesus you don't believe He is a Messiah. Will you care to explain?

It could be summarised thus:

The Messiah is to rebuild the Temple, reign over Israel, bring about world peace and exonerate all oppressed people from their oppressors. Jesus did none of those things.

He isn't afforded the status of Messiah because he didn't fulfill the important Messianic prophecies. He isn't afforded the status of a prophet because the age of prophecy in Israel ended a few hundred years before his birth. He isn't afforded the status of a great philosopher because he didn't leave us with any treatises or philosophical works.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

Exactly, that's what jewish thought what prophets were said. Now did you know that even Judas and all other disciples thought the same, but Jesus is about to be crucified and thought Jesus probably not the Messiah and Jesus knew there thoughts. They thought Jesus is free the jews from Roman's power and thought He will rebuild the temple and etc. They thought its political isues. But during the time of Jesus arrest and religious leaders were furious and questioning how that possible that the Temple will be rebuilt in 3 days. That what religious leader doesn't understand. Jesus point out about resurrection till when Jesus died and buried and religious leader fear if there is resureection and commanded the soldiers to seal the tomb and claiming by fear disciples might steal the body, but not happen, when resurrection did happen which soldiers were terrified and reoprt the religious leaders and they paid the soldiers to keep quiet. Now like in Micah chapter 5, when virgin will have a child, and He is the one will rule the world, that is future event during millenium. Salvation is prest that is prepare for the future, bec His Blood covered our sins which when time come of His return that when our body will be changed. Now, I met a guy who is scholar of Judiasm, who is a christian, saying there are different judiasm, but saying many are inaccurate and contradict, so there are many controversial in this matter.

 

[sculleywr]

Sorry, I misread that one. God promised he won't destroy ALL (that keyword is overlooked on my part) creatures so with that fact, God promises it won't happen again no matter how evil people will become.

No, He said he would not destroy all the earth WITH WATER. Read the WHOLE THING.

On to another topic, Hows about we put the topic on the actions of Christians. Any bites?

 

[Rose Immortal]

Perhaps, but the point I'm trying to make is that the Psalms were never considered to contain prophecy until Christianity came along and reinterpreted everything.

In all seriousness, I have to ask, is "older" always "better"? While there's a lot to be said for tradition, I do think there's also room for people to progress in their understanding of the world. Science goes through such changes as we discover new things (example: going from Newtonian to Einsteinian to quantum physics). I don't see why it's so unnatural for religious understanding to go through growth as well.

The problem with that statement is that then, theoretically, anything anywhere in the Tanakh could be considered "prophecy", something that doesn't make any sense. Is there prophecy in Job? Esther? Song of Songs? Ezra/Nehemiah?

It is always possible that something in there is a prophecy--in other cases, I believe we have certain books because they present a "type"...that is, a recurring "theme" or "event" in the way God interacts with this universe. Certain patterns do seem to recur throughout the entire Bible. As for particular books, I would imagine some have quite a bit more or less than others. But, I wouldn't rule it out.

In the Jewish ordering of the Tanakh (as opposed to the Christian Old Testament, where the books are all in a different order), the third section is the K'tuvim, the Writings. As the title implies, when compared with the Torah and the N'viim (Prophets) these books are not considered quite as important... The Torah is the word of God, the N'viim are basically God's word but also the prophet's own interpretation, the K'tuvim are entirely human works.

I think the fundamental difference we're starting to get at is, if I'm not mistaken, you regard the Jewish sections of the Bible as if they were three totally different compendiums instead of one coherent anthology (I say "anthology" to recognize that there were multiple earthly authors). The non-literalist Christian regards all of them as having divine inspiration of some sort or another, even if one must place it into the context of its culture and time, whereas judging from your comment elsewhere in this thread you do not consider all of it authoritative or divinely inspired at all. (The literalist sees it all as dictated by God word-for-word and literally meant, and that's a view I can't speak to since I go the "inspired" route instead.)

In your view, then, why should one even bother with anything but the Torah? To suggest no divine inspiration in certain books at all would to my mind give them the same status as the Talmud rather than Scripture. And I'm not sure of my history--but didn't the Samaritans go that very route and dismiss all but the Torah? I have to admit I can kind of see their logic as the ultimate end of the logic you're using.

Deja vu?

I don't think that term fits. I think deja vu pertains to feeling like "I've been there before", present reflecting on past--whereas this incident was present reflecting on future (but not being totally clear on the specifics of that event until it occurred). I think "presentiment" is a more correct term.

The problem with considering this God-related is that, for example, a person might have recurring nightmares about, say, a volcano. The volcano erupting is not an unnatural thing, so, eventually, and not too far into the future, a volcano would erupt somewhere in the world.

One might...and for my particular case I don't make claims of divine inspiration though I think for some it could occur. I'm nothing special myself. My personal theory is that (sadly) the sheer loss of life and impact upon the world makes a catastrophe on that magnitude more likely to generate presentiments.

It's called sarcasm. The point is that you should not believe everything anyone tells you without a certain amount of healthy criticism.

The point itself is valid...I just think what you said THIS time would've been more effective than the sarcasm. Especially in a debate about such closely-held beliefs, it's easy for emotions to run so high that people focus on the emotions and not the issues.

Anyone sufficiently knowledgable in Jewish history and the Torah.

OK, the reason I wanted to clear this up was to get at the root of another disagreement I think you and I have. As I see it, any laws invented by humanity are bound to be flawed, even if they are trying to use Biblical principles. I don't see our attempts at a legal system (heck, ANY of them civilization's ever tried to use) having equal status to God's judgment. I think this is part of why ancient Christianity disavowed what the rabbis were doing with their interpretations of the Law at the time.

Granted some sects of Christianity have gone and done the same thing they accused the Pharisees of doing, in their own ways. But that's a whole other can of worms we probably don't need to get into here.

"Living waters" is straight out of the Mishnah (tractate Mikvaot).

Not my clearest phrasing ever.

How far back do the Mishnah go in authorship? I ask because I want to know why someone would've used that phrase, how long it's been entrenched in the Jewish culture. If for a very long time, then to me Jesus' use of those words would be very significant.

Well, like I said, there were many many mikvaot on the site of the Temple, implying they were doing *something* with them. What, precisely, I don't know.

Yeah, I know...but that both literatures, despite being interpreted by people with such different perspectives, would both deal in such similar concepts makes me suspect there was a mutual understanding at the time that Jesus would've been referring to.

She had the same rights as a born Jew anyway... Judaism considers righteous action, rather than belief the way one achieves the afterlife. The person being a Jew is not at all important in the scope of Judaism.

Is that modern Judaism you're thinking of, or the ancient kind? And if ancient Judaism as well as modern, then what was the whole "Chosen People" thing? I'd taken it to mean preferential treatment with regard to salvation.

 

[Teresh]

In all seriousness, I have to ask, is "older" always "better"? While there's a lot to be said for tradition, I do think there's also room for people to progress in their understanding of the world. Science goes through such changes as we discover new things (example: going from Newtonian to Einsteinian to quantum physics). I don't see why it's so unnatural for religious understanding to go through growth as well.

A valid point, but then the question becomes, is it acceptable to throw out tradition entirely?

It is always possible that something in there is a prophecy--in other cases, I believe we have certain books because they present a "type"...that is, a recurring "theme" or "event" in the way God interacts with this universe. Certain patterns do seem to recur throughout the entire Bible. As for particular books, I would imagine some have quite a bit more or less than others. But, I wouldn't rule it out.

I'm not ruling out that there could be prophecy or that there couldn't be, I'm just acknowledging the traditional Jewish view. It's worth noting that that is not *my* view, though.

Personally, I'd say most Scripture, for any religion, is probably divinely inspired in some form (even the Vedas, Upanishads, Tao Te Ching, etc.).

That doesn't necessarily mean that they're all prophetic (or that any of them are) but rather that some kind of ascended spiritual state is necessary to write a good religious book.

I think the fundamental difference we're starting to get at is, if I'm not mistaken, you regard the Jewish sections of the Bible as if they were three totally different compendiums instead of one coherent anthology (I say "anthology" to recognize that there were multiple earthly authors).

Well... They are, in the sense that they're three different groups of books. The word "Tanakh" itself is actually an acronym (in Hebrew) for Torah N'viim K'tuvim (Tav, Nun and Kaph, TNK, TaNaKH. Kaf at the end of a word becomes a final Khaf so it has a different sound, but it's still the same letter.)

The non-literalist Christian regards all of them as having divine inspiration of some sort or another, even if one must place it into the context of its culture and time, whereas judging from your comment elsewhere in this thread you do not consider all of it authoritative or divinely inspired at all. (The literalist sees it all as dictated by God word-for-word and literally meant, and that's a view I can't speak to since I go the "inspired" route instead.)

Indeed, that's pretty much what I said.

In your view, then, why should one even bother with anything but the Torah? To suggest no divine inspiration in certain books at all would to my mind give them the same status as the Talmud rather than Scripture.

The Torah isn't the only religious text out there. It's just one of many. I think studying as many as possible is worthwhile. There's several out there that have less spelling errors, too.

The more one reads, the more knowledge one gains. Why bother with anything other than Torah? Because it makes you more learned.

The Talmud is considered to be, at least in Orthodox Judaism, just as authoritative as the Torah because it's the implementation, according to the Rabbis, of the Torah into one's life. It's worth noting that

And I'm not sure of my history--but didn't the Samaritans go that very route and dismiss all but the Torah? I have to admit I can kind of see their logic as the ultimate end of the logic you're using.

Wiki:Samaritan might shed some light. Interesting. I wasn't sure what their religious beliefs were, but now I know.

It's worth stating that Karaite Judaism also rejected the Oral Law, but did so much later. In the last 200 years, Reform Judaism has rejected a lot of the Oral Law as no longer relevant and placed new emphasis on the Torah.

As I see it, any laws invented by humanity are bound to be flawed, even if they are trying to use Biblical principles.

I disagree on the basis that we are a logical species (or can be) and that therefore if we can apply logic to Torah we can develop laws that are logically based on those of the Torah.

I don't see our attempts at a legal system (heck, ANY of them civilization's ever tried to use) having equal status to God's judgment.

I disagree... I believe that if we are made in the image and likeness of God and we ordain that God is merciful but just we can, indeed should, emulate the Divine.

How far back do the Mishnah go in authorship? I ask because I want to know why someone would've used that phrase, how long it's been entrenched in the Jewish culture. If for a very long time, then to me Jesus' use of those words would be very significant.

The Mishnah was compiled around 200 CE. How far back some of the traditions go is unknown as prior to the compilation of the Mishnah, the Oral Law was never written down. The discovery of mikvaot on the Temple Mount surrounding the former Second Temple would indicate, though, that the mikvah and the concept of "living waters" are at least as old as the Second Temple, so 500 BCE or earlier.

Yeah, I know...but that both literatures, despite being interpreted by people with such different perspectives, would both deal in such similar concepts makes me suspect there was a mutual understanding at the time that Jesus would've been referring to.

Possibly. I think an argument could be made that when he said "living waters" he might have been referring to the mikvah in terms of purifying the person wholly.

Is that modern Judaism you're thinking of, or the ancient kind? And if ancient Judaism as well as modern, then what was the whole "Chosen People" thing? I'd taken it to mean preferential treatment with regard to salvation.

Both ancient and modern.

The idea of Israel as the chosen people would be described in the sense that they accepted the Torah (the Rabbis interpreted it such that God went to all the nations with the Torah and only the Israelites accepted it) and thus entered into the Covenant with God. That said, the Covenant doesn't afford Israel any preferential treatment--If anything, it makes their lives harder because they are expected to live according to the Torah.

In the scope of Judaism, the gentile, for salvation, is expected to follow the Seven Noachide Laws, simple rules which most decent people would be following anyway. This is why Judaism has typically discouraged conversion (with the exception of the Pharisees actively seeking proselytes during the Second Temple era)--Getting salvation as a Jew is a lot harder than getting salvation as a gentile. Gentiles have to follow 7 rules. Jews have to follow all 613 mitzvot. In the scope of Judaism, it's actually preferable to not be a Jew if salvation is your goal.

 

[Throwstones]

Jews have to follow all 613 mitzvot


Once Jew person does commit to sin and broke one of 613 mitzvot then it shut down! Can't functions! How can u tell me if it must be perfect 100% on 613 Mitzvot?

 

[LinuxGold]

Please keep this debate geared specifically towards the topic of this thread and create your own thread if you want to continue your own debate.

Thank you,


Scott

 

[Teresh]

Jews have to follow all 613 mitzvot


Once Jew person does commit to sin and broke one of 613 mitzvot then it shut down! Can't functions! How can u tell me if it must be perfect 100% on 613 Mitzvot?

This is really OT, but I'm willing to answer the question... If you want any clarification, we can take it to a PM.

The Jew, like the gentile, is given the choice by God of whether or not to follow the rules. Every time the person does follow the rules, it's +1 in the book. Every time the person does not follow the rules, it's -1 in the book. It should be also said that repentance is allowed and that if a sinner honestly repents, God absolves the person of his or her sins.

 

[sculleywr]

Ok, now, I open the question as to what your personal perspective is on Christianity.

 

[indie]

Did you know that
Lord is NOT impressed with anyone who
flaunt her knowledge/intelligent level
(almost like wasting your time for these
kind of knowledge )

The Lord would be impressed with you ONLY
if you have the Faith, Hope and Charity
which are far more important than
"knowledge" or "intelligent" or "depth"

No Jesus, No Peace.
Know Jesus, Know Peace.

I really have to agree with you here. I became a christian a few years ago and i have found that i am happier and more at peace now. But thats not to say that other religions cant do the same for you. thats just what i belive

 

[Maria]

Yep, you both are correct. God is interestin' in the heart...honesty and humble heart, not the intelligent mind.

 

[Teresh]

Yep, you both are correct. God is interestin' in the heart...honesty and humble heart, not the intelligent mind.

Well, that's Christianity, basically. Most of the other major religions believe that God is interested in the mind (or both the heart and mind).

Not condemning Christians for that belief, just acknowledging the difference.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

True, God knows our hearts and minds. But the intelligence itself will not get you anywhere. God does use us to be intellegence according only by God. As Mikvah as of living water as samaritan woman met Jesus at the Jacob's well. Jesus has described about the living water. Christian's mikvah is Holy Spirit. Jesus talked about Living Water time to time. And the Torah is in our heart, bec of Christ, that is the law written in our heart. When we sin, we broke all the law. Yes, confessing is requirements, just Like King David described, without confession and also hiding sins, make it feel very uncomfortable and that can lead into depravity. There are law about sacrifice for our sins which is once every year. And now, in christian faith, our sacrifice is done. Bec He is our Sacrificial Lamb and Blood shed to cleanse us just like the old law. All the law was nailed and not hold against us. But like Paul quote peoples questions: K since we no longer under the law, can we continue to sin? The answer is God forbids! So what if we sinned? (Also, written by John), we have an advocate between the Father and us, which is Jesus Christ, our High Priest. There are differences regard of sins, its how respond and attitudes of sins, we either get a way with it, which God will chastise His children whom He loves and the reward of God will be lessen or you set goal in ur heart ande eyes focus on Him to keep running with the help of the Holy Spirit and practice godliness. Bec many overlooked and didn't realize, we aren't in glorify body yet, we still live in the flesh and battle will go on till He called us Home.

 

[EagleCherokee63]

True, God knows our hearts and minds. But the intelligence itself will not get you anywhere. God does use us to be intellegence according only by God. As Mikvah as of living water as samaritan woman met Jesus at the Jacob's well. Jesus has described about the living water. Christian's mikvah is Holy Spirit. Jesus talked about Living Water time to time. And the Torah is in our heart, bec of Christ, that is the law written in our heart. When we sin, we broke all the law. Yes, confessing is requirements, just Like King David described, without confession and also hiding sins, make it feel very uncomfortable and that can lead into depravity. There are law about sacrifice for our sins which is once every year. And now, in christian faith, our sacrifice is done. Bec He is our Sacrificial Lamb and Blood shed to cleanse us just like the old law. All the law was nailed and not hold against us. But like Paul quote peoples questions: K since we no longer under the law, can we continue to sin? The answer is God forbids! So what if we sinned? (Also, written by John), we have an advocate between the Father and us, which is Jesus Christ, our High Priest. There are differences regard of sins, its how respond and attitudes of sins, we either get a way with it, which God will chastise His children whom He loves and the reward of God will be lessen or you set goal in ur heart ande eyes focus on Him to keep running with the help of the Holy Spirit and practice godliness. Bec many overlooked and didn't realize, we aren't in glorify body yet, we still live in the flesh and battle will go on till He called us Home.

Amen!

 

[XBGMER]

Heart vs Intelligent

I perfer chose the intelligant over heart. Heart always give you doubt or lust, If you see the beautiful of apple on the tree, your heart make you weakness for lust to eat it as LOOOK WHAT HAPPEND TO EVE became rebel and lust after apple what she ate and ignored adam's require law "no eat apple of tree". she heard her own heart captured by the lust of apple from tree.. well...

like in the eyes of men looking the beautiful lady or hottie chick walk around, because their heart already became weak, filled lust and thought of sex stuffs about beautiful lady / hottie chic men want to have to hump instead of their own wife or girlfriend.. they dont use their judgment.

HEART IS FULLY OF DOUBT, LUST AND HATRED. MIND IS INTELLIGENT, WISDOM, JUDGMENT SIGHT OF WORD ON AND ON.

I admire being the intelligace using through the judgment to prevent something happen to my life from misleads and mistakes.

Anyway I answer yes God was something very interested in intelligace/ knoweldge, I suggest you read scripture again and again till you find what God said already..

For example in during slavey time, white matsers didnt wanted to educate black slaves about God and Jesus.. Now today, whites are very clever to twist black mind by their words after black freed from slaves that Jesus was white man they ought to worship him and dont want to teach God was, and is repersent the person among them since Moses born.

EDUCATE THAT IS KNOWLEDGE/ INTELLIGENT.

EDUCATE IS MOST IMPORTANT TO ME AND TO MY GENERNATIONS!

 

[hottiedeafboi]

Well make this clear, the eyes feed the mind, while in the mind you make a choice either do it or refuse it, that decision set in the heart to act upon. L T D, Lust in the eyes (which the mind tells you), then decide to Touch? Lead Death. Like Kind David with Bathsheba, he stares the naked woman, that feed his mind, but he has concious and heart convict him by indwelling his thoughts and he chose sin and that lead him life destruction and his unconfessed sin and covered up his sins and manipulate his sins lead God to send Nathan to David what God sees. Does that mean David isn't intelleligence? He is a very brilliant and love God with all his heart, but what he saw by allowing in his thoughts destroyed him. Some time we can say what he did is not the smart things to do. You may be intellilgence about the Bible, but not live by it, its still short circuit.