Wrong Perspective About Christians

[Throwstones]

I want people to have a spiritual relationship with God. Exactly what religion the person is practicing doesn't matter to me so long as they have that and respect the beliefs of others.

The problem I have with Jews for Jesus as an organisation is that they do not respect the beliefs of other people. In fact, they actively try to change the beliefs of other people in order to have more of their own. Then, the proselyte is encouraged to go out, as you do, and try to convert others.

You and the organisations of people like you do not respect the beliefs of other people... That is why I find myself diametrically opposed to people like you. The Jesus thing is not the most important thing, it's the utter lack of respect or reverance for other people's beliefs and traditions.


Who said I don't think that? I certainly didn't. You're putting words in my mouth.



Deprogramming is the opposite of brainwashing... Since Jews for Jesus brainwashes its proselytes as a matter of policy, it is logical that a person who has joined that organisation from a Jewish background would need to be un-brainwashed.

A. It's not illegal... If it is, then Jews for Jesus is just as guilty.


B. Jews for Judaism does not force anyone to follow Judaism as a religion. Rather, it merely encourages Jews to embrace their religion and its spirituality rather than rejecting it and converting to something else.

My age should not be incredibly important here because I am well-educated (perhaps better than you are) and I don't have an axe to grind with people who don't follow my religion.

Judaism teaches that all people, righteous or wicked, will reap what they sow in the afterlife if there is one. I'm inclined to agree. There are good people of every faith and creed and wicked people of every faith and creed and it's just plainly irrational to suggest that the righteous Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Taoists, Atheists, et al. will all go to hell (if there is one) because they didn't believe Jesus was a god.

Obviously, you will disagree with me on this point, but that reflects the fact that while you are a Jew by law you are a Christian by practice and belief, regardless of how hard you work to emulate Jewish practice.



Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said I "work with the Rabbis" nor did I ever claim to be a Jew. I claim to be a Noachide, an informal ger toshav if you will, but not a Jew.

But you're also using the term Rabbis as if it were some kind of massive conspiracy. A typical Christian vantage point, but not even remotely true when you actually understand Rabbinical Judaism as a religion. Actually, depending on your rationale for it, it could be said to be Anti-Semitic as it would imply that the Jews as a matter of policy work to deceive people.

You are a Jew, raised in a Reform household if I recall--Were you ever taught to lie to people as a matter of principle?

I am former staff to work with Jews for Jesus for some years and am longtime friend with Jews for Jesus. We Jews for Jesus give people a choice to decide accept or reject the Messiah Y'shua. We believe that we never force them to believe this. This is a person's free will between a person and GOD.

Deprogramming is similiar as brainwashing to make you believing that Jesus is not Messiah and force you to deny Him.

Thatis not true.. I have researched this history in past and know it is against legal For example, a rapist want to do agaist your will since you would say No to rapist but rapist do force you for sex that means against your will. Same thing as deprogrammers are doing against your will that you do not want to deny the Messiah Jesus but they can give you real confusing in the bible which is mostly twisting story etc... They can make you denying the Messiah Jesus.

BUZZZ BUZZZZZ wrong... I have been knowledge about Jews for Judaism and know their ways to force them to deny Messiah Jesus.

Over IM, per conversation, you already told me that you work with the rabbi in your area since you attend the temple.

Let me tell you that 23 years ago the rabbi who works with the deaf jews did send letters to every deaf jews including me. I read his letter that he is certainly deprogrammer and wants to find any deaf messianic jews for doing a deprogramming on them. I have an evidence of his letter without doubting. He also told me over phone, he wanted me to deny the Messiah Jesus therefore I refused to deny Him as Messiah.

Throwstones

 

[Teresh]

look at your own words....do you think it's okay to say your words to someone? What does it mean to you if you were not Teresh?

It's not a bad thing to acknowledge that one is educated. It does not grant credibility in and of itself but it does establish that the individual is reasonably learned on the various effects of life on our planet. The point was not to establish myself as superior or more knowledgable but rather to dismiss the notion that I am not knowledgable because I am younger.

I'm not a fool and I do, at times, know what I am talking about. The suggestion that I do not because I happen to be less advanced in my years is not a fair or proper way to talk with me or to discuss a subject with me. If anything, it shows that the person is not willing to consider my words because they would believe me to be naive.

The issue that is refuted in that statement is the suggestion that I am too young to be considered knowledgable on general issues when I am, in fact, reasonably well-educated.

 

[Teresh]

I am former staff to work with Jews for Jesus for some years and am longtime friend with Jews for Jesus. We Jews for Jesus give people a choice to decide accept or reject the Messiah Y'shua. We believe that we never force them to believe this. This is a person's free will between a person and GOD.

And yet Jews for Jesus employs a lot of deceptive tactics and preys upon essentially assimilated Jews in order to gain converts... You claim that it is a person's free will, but then you are very aggressive and deceptive to the audience--which is it?

Deprogramming is similiar as brainwashing to make you believing that Jesus is not Messiah and force you to deny Him.

It's not quite the same as the Jews in question already believed that Jesus was not the Messiah until your organisation interfered and brainwashed them.

Thatis not true.. I have researched this history in past and know it is against legal For example, a rapist want to do agaist your will since you would say No to rapist but rapist do force you for sex that means against your will.

Rape laws do not apply to religious conversions. They're two completely different things, though the psychological impact may be similar for some.

BUZZZ BUZZZZZ wrong... I have been knowledge about Jews for Judaism and know their ways to force them to deny Messiah Jesus.

Well, you're also a Christian who believes in the existence of a massive Rabbinical conspiracy, so it's not surprising you'd think negatively of Jews for Judaism and its motives. You're an Anti-Jewish Jew, so your denial of the reality that Jews for Judaism does not have ill intent makes sense in the context of what you are.

Over IM, per conversation, you already told me that you work with the rabbi in your area since you attend the temple.

Yes, I attend services when I am able to do so. Yes, I have met various rabbis in my life. Yes, I've found Jewish practice to be more spiritually and intellectually substantiative than I found Christianity in my many years of practicing that.

Let me tell you that 23 years ago the rabbi who works with the deaf jews did send letters to every deaf jews including me. I read his letter that he is certainly deprogrammer and wants to find any deaf messianic jews for doing a deprogramming on them. I have an evidence of his letter without doubting. He also told me over phone, he wanted me to deny the Messiah Jesus therefore I refused to deny Him as Messiah.

I'm sorry you had a negative experience, but the fact of the matter is that that negative experience is not at all a logical rationale for rejecting Judaism as a way of life or as a religion.

 

[Throwstones]

And yet Jews for Jesus employs a lot of deceptive tactics and preys upon essentially assimilated Jews in order to gain converts... You claim that it is a person's free will, but then you are very aggressive and deceptive to the audience--which is it?



It's not quite the same as the Jews in question already believed that Jesus was not the Messiah until your organisation interfered and brainwashed them.



Rape laws do not apply to religious conversions. They're two completely different things, though the psychological impact may be similar for some.



Well, you're also a Christian who believes in the existence of a massive Rabbinical conspiracy, so it's not surprising you'd think negatively of Jews for Judaism and its motives. You're an Anti-Jewish Jew, so your denial of the reality that Jews for Judaism does not have ill intent makes sense in the context of what you are.



Yes, I attend services when I am able to do so. Yes, I have met various rabbis in my life. Yes, I've found Jewish practice to be more spiritually and intellectually substantiative than I found Christianity in my many years of practicing that.



I'm sorry you had a negative experience, but the fact of the matter is that that negative experience is not at all a logical rationale for rejecting Judaism as a way of life or as a religion.

Your issue is out of order! PERIOD...

Throwstones

 

[Momoftwo]

And yet Jews for Jesus employs a lot of deceptive tactics and preys upon essentially assimilated Jews in order to gain converts... You claim that it is a person's free will, but then you are very aggressive and deceptive to the audience--which is it?



It's not quite the same as the Jews in question already believed that Jesus was not the Messiah until your organisation interfered and brainwashed them.



Rape laws do not apply to religious conversions. They're two completely different things, though the psychological impact may be similar for some.



Well, you're also a Christian who believes in the existence of a massive Rabbinical conspiracy, so it's not surprising you'd think negatively of Jews for Judaism and its motives. You're an Anti-Jewish Jew, so your denial of the reality that Jews for Judaism does not have ill intent makes sense in the context of what you are.



Yes, I attend services when I am able to do so. Yes, I have met various rabbis in my life. Yes, I've found Jewish practice to be more spiritually and intellectually substantiative than I found Christianity in my many years of practicing that.



I'm sorry you had a negative experience, but the fact of the matter is that that negative experience is not at all a logical rationale for rejecting Judaism as a way of life or as a religion.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

Thanks and you re welcome Reba, Cyberred, Scrulley, Momoftwo, Throwstones. Smile! Keep the faith stronger inspite of their anger, hatred, bitterness, excuses, twisting and etc. We know who the true Living Lord Jesus Christ actually prophysied fullfilled Messiah. May His Name be lifted up and give God the glory. Oh how we many thanks to our Father who has given us the Savior so we can be with Him forever and ever. HALLELUJAH PRAISE THE LAMB!

 

[hottiedeafboi]

Oh that's goes for you too, ROSE. Sorry I left you out. Winks

 

[Rose Immortal]

NOTE: Teresh is a counter-missionary to work with rabbis and can involved in Jews for Judaism. You know what means counter-missionary? It is called "anti-missionary" which means to brainwash any jewish believer to deny the Messiah Y'shua and go back to judaism that is Counter-missionary's job duty.

Has Teresh ever stated anywhere on AD that this is the case, or is that just YOUR guess?

 

[Rose Immortal]

The virgin birth. How is Jesus supposed to be patrilinearly descended from King David if he didn't have a father? Moreover, why does the geneaology in Luke trace Joseph back to Nathan rather than Solomon?

I saw one interesting theory on this I thought I would share. The Bible gives two genealogies for Jesus. One is the "legal" genealogy, which would be through the legal guardian, i.e. Joseph. The other one, in Luke, may well be a genealogy through Mary's side; in that case, Heli (the first name cited after Joseph) is Joseph's father-in-law. So that particular line is in fact a biological bloodline.

Now as to the reason why that genealogy goes back to Nathan rather than through Solomon's line, there's a reason that arises through a prophecy by Jeremiah. The Davidic line from Solomon continued from Solomon to a king named Jeconiah (or Coniah). Jeconiah was not a particularly faithful individual and had a large role in getting his country conquered, as I understand it. At that time, Jeremiah relayed the following prophecy pertaining to Jeconiah's line:

This is what the LORD says:
"Record this man as if childless,
a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
or rule anymore in Judah."

(Read the full chapter here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah 22;&version=31; )

However, you have earlier prophecies where the Davidic line was to rule "forever." This promise is reiterated in the New Testament in the angel's explanation to Mary, in the book of Matthew, but it does occur in the Old Testament. If anyone has a citation handy on that one, I'd appreciate it.

Under this theory I'm following, God did not say WHICH branch of the Davidic line that the Messiah had to be descended from. So rather than His being a blood-descendant of the cursed line (Jeconiah's), Jesus is a blood-descendant of David through Nathan's line. This would not be the first instance of God's elevating the younger sibling above the older; in fact, David himself is a perfect example--youngest sibling of his family.

One other interesting note. I mention that Jeconiah's line, through which Joseph eventually originated, was cursed. It's quite interesting that Joseph came out of what seems to be blue-collar circumstances, not all that well-off. We see evidence of this in a few different ways: the sacrifice offered at the Temple in honor of Jesus' birth is that of doves, which is the sacrifice of the less affluent. Furthermore, there's even a recorded statement in the Gospels where someone says, "Could anything good come out of Nazareth?" (Paraphrased) Basically, Nazareth was a little hole in the wall. So you could imagine that guy's next statement being, "What a miserable little hick-town!"

Anyway, quite a ramble and I'm NOT an expert, but I thought some of you might be interested in that.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Oh that's goes for you too, ROSE. Sorry I left you out. Winks

Don't worry about it.

 

[Throwstones]

Has Teresh ever stated anywhere on AD that this is the case, or is that just YOUR guess?

Rose Immortal

My answer to you is very truly which Teresh did IM me on AIM few weeks ago. It is NOT guess! Both of me and Teresh did conversate on AIM as she did mention me.

Throwstones

 

[Rose Immortal]

I'm afraid I can't accept that as evidence, as it's your word against his and thus neither of you can prove which way it happened. Only a public statement counts.

 

[Maria]

Thanks and you re welcome Reba, Cyberred, Scrulley, Momoftwo, Throwstones. Smile! Keep the faith stronger inspite of their anger, hatred, bitterness, excuses, twisting and etc. We know who the true Living Lord Jesus Christ actually prophysied fullfilled Messiah. May His Name be lifted up and give God the glory. Oh how we many thanks to our Father who has given us the Savior so we can be with Him forever and ever. HALLELUJAH PRAISE THE LAMB!

HottieDeafBoi --

I believe that we all should never silent Jesus Christ. Let's make the name of Jesus Christ be heard. Jesus always win and will continue to do so.

One day, Satan will bow down and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord !

 

[Throwstones]

I'm afraid I can't accept that as evidence, as it's your word against his and thus neither of you can prove which way it happened. Only a public statement counts.

Do you trust in GOD? Therefore GOD is my witness and saw all of us talking. God know that I have evidences. Then why you doubt in me and GOD?

THROWSTONES

 

[Teresh]

One is the "legal" genealogy, which would be through the legal guardian, i.e. Joseph.

The problem for that is that for purposes of Jewish law an adoptive father is not considered the same as the biological parent. If a Jewish family adopts a gentile child, even as an infant, that child will still need to be formally converted in order to be considered a Jew by Jewish law.

The status of one being a Jew is passed down matrilinearly according to Jewish law, but status of the Kings and the Priests (Melekhim, Kohanim and Levites) is passed down patrialinearly. This also applies to an adopted child--An adopted child, regardless of whether or not his adoptive father is a Kohen or a Levite, cannot gain the status of either. Moreover, if the child is a Kohen or a Levite, he does not forfeit this status simply by his adoptive father not being one.

Assuming we're willing to accept the virgin birth as true, then it's impossible for Jesus to have been the Messiah as he would need to be of the line of Kings and that would require a biological father. However, if we are willing to forgo that belief and rely on the more realistic idea that Jesus is actually the son of Joseph and Mary together, then it is much more plausible that he could have been the Messiah.

The other one, in Luke, may well be a genealogy through Mary's side; in that case, Heli (the first name cited after Joseph) is Joseph's father-in-law. So that particular line is in fact a biological bloodline.

The issue here is that while it could have been Mary's genealogy, it says Joseph. More importantly, it also does not matter what Mary's genealogy was for the purpose of Jewish law--Mary could not pass down Jesus's status as a King because that is not something females of that line inherit.

The Davidic line from Solomon continued from Solomon to a king named Jeconiah (or Coniah). Jeconiah was not a particularly faithful individual and had a large role in getting his country conquered, as I understand it. At that time, Jeremiah relayed the following prophecy pertaining to Jeconiah's line:

The Jeconian line would be the main problem with the idea that Joseph was a King under Jewish law because of the curse. There is some midrash that says that the curse was lifted, but there is nothing in the Tanakh itself that explicitly supports this claim so it's hard to tell.

So rather than His being a blood-descendant of the cursed line (Jeconiah's), Jesus is a blood-descendant of David through Nathan's line. This would not be the first instance of God's elevating the younger sibling above the older; in fact, David himself is a perfect example--youngest sibling of his family.

Yes, but that's through Mary by your intepretation, something that doesn't hold up given the above. Again, though, if we're willing to disregard the virgin birth idea, it's all the more plausible.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Throwstones: to put it bluntly, I trust God. I do not trust humanity.

BTW, Teresh--sorry about the gender-bending in my post above. I forgot and by the time I realized it, I'd lost the ability to edit that post!

 

[Throwstones]

Throwstones: to put it bluntly, I trust God. I do not trust humanity.

Therefore you are doubtful what I share with you on AD. That is your problem! That is fine with me whatsoever you say so... Let u go!

 

[Rose Immortal]

The problem for that is that for purposes of Jewish law an adoptive father is not considered the same as the biological parent. If a Jewish family adopts a gentile child, even as an infant, that child will still need to be formally converted in order to be considered a Jew by Jewish law.

The status of one being a Jew is passed down matrilinearly according to Jewish law, but status of the Kings and the Priests (Melekhim, Kohanim and Levites) is passed down patrialinearly. This also applies to an adopted child--An adopted child, regardless of whether or not his adoptive father is a Kohen or a Levite, cannot gain the status of either. Moreover, if the child is a Kohen or a Levite, he does not forfeit this status simply by his adoptive father not being one.

I recall seeing this about one's status as a Jew; that explains Ruth.

Off-topic for a second: is "Kohen" synonymous to the term I see in my translation of the Bible, of "Kohathite"? They were the ark-bearers, if I remember properly...it's been several months since I read that book.

Assuming we're willing to accept the virgin birth as true, then it's impossible for Jesus to have been the Messiah as he would need to be of the line of Kings and that would require a biological father. However, if we are willing to forgo that belief and rely on the more realistic idea that Jesus is actually the son of Joseph and Mary together, then it is much more plausible that he could have been the Messiah.

I hope you'll understand that I'm unwilling to forgo my belief in the virgin birth.

I can see where your reasoning is coming from, but it's still clear that that prophecy I mentioned below creates a BIG problem that has to be resolved, since God doesn't contradict Himself.

Also, something else...

The issue here is that while it could have been Mary's genealogy, it says Joseph. More importantly, it also does not matter what Mary's genealogy was for the purpose of Jewish law--Mary could not pass down Jesus's status as a King because that is not something females of that line inherit.

That still doesn't keep Jesus from being genetically of David's bloodline.

In fact, your comment may actually shed some light on a few incidents in the New Testament: why would Jesus have to be baptized and named by God as His son and heir, in a couple of different incidents. I've heard Christians ask that question and this actually makes it fall into place: you basically have Jesus making an official conversion/profession of His choice to follow the God of Abraham.

I know you were trying to go the opposite direction there, but I couldn't help noticing and pointing it out!

The Jeconian line would be the main problem with the idea that Joseph was a King under Jewish law because of the curse. There is some midrash that says that the curse was lifted, but there is nothing in the Tanakh itself that explicitly supports this claim so it's hard to tell.

If I am correct in assuming that the "midrash" is part of the Talmud or other writings outside the Tanakh, then it holds secondary status to the actual Scriptures; it's essentially a commentary. I hope you'll understand my strong reservations about giving that the same standing as the Bible.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Therefore you are doubtful what I share with you on AD. That is your problem! That is fine with me whatsoever you say so... Let u go!

No problem.

 

[Teresh]

Off-topic for a second: is "Kohen" synonymous to the term I see in my translation of the Bible, of "Kohathite"? They were the ark-bearers, if I remember properly...it's been several months since I read that book.

The Kohanim are the higher of the two priest classes in Biblical Judaism, they are descended from Aaron. They are Levites as Aaron was a Levite, but they are considered higher than other Levites because of their being descended from Aaron. The word "Kohen" is the singular form of Kohanim. By the definition you're giving of Kohathite, yes, they would be the same.

The Kohenim still exist, as does the Tribe of Levi, but being a member of either has little value outside of Orthodox Judaism for the reasons stated above. Still, there are some things only a Kohen is allowed to do, such as perform the Pidyon HaBen (Redeeming of the Firstborn Son) ceremony for the if the firstborn of a woman is a son.

I hope you'll understand that I'm unwilling to forgo my belief in the virgin birth.

Oh, of course, I'm just expressing that from my vantage point it makes more sense without that idea.

That still doesn't keep Jesus from being genetically of David's bloodline.

The Ancient Jews didn't know anything about genetics... The reasons some of these laws developed were practicality and others because it was what everyone else is doing. Everyone else had Kings descending patrilinearly. The Jews emulated that. The reason they had the status of a Jew conveyed matrilinearly was because it could be hard to tell who the father of a child was, but it would always be easy to tell who was the mother.

In fact, your comment may actually shed some light on a few incidents in the New Testament: why would Jesus have to be baptized and named by God as His son and heir, in a couple of different incidents. I've heard Christians ask that question and this actually makes it fall into place: you basically have Jesus making an official conversion/profession of His choice to follow the God of Abraham.

I'm not sure about that. Where in Christian Scripture does that occur?

Baptism isn't a part of Jewish conversion... I'm not sure (and it may be that no one knows) what the conversion procedure was like when the Temple still stood, but baptism is a Christian idea. That said, modern conversion by the Talmud requires immersion in a mikvah, but the immersion itself doesn't make the person a Jew in any legal sense (that's conveyed by a beth din, a court of 3 learned Jews, usually rabbis), but rather in a spiritual sense.

I know you were trying to go the opposite direction there, but I couldn't help noticing and pointing it out!

I'll go whatever direction you want to go here. I enjoy the discussion for the sake of the discussion, I'm not trying to drive a point home or get you to agree with me so much as explore the different possibilities.

If I am correct in assuming that the "midrash" is part of the Talmud or other writings outside the Tanakh, then it holds secondary status to the actual Scriptures; it's essentially a commentary. I hope you'll understand my strong reservations about giving that the same standing as the Bible.

Midrash (plural: midrashim) is a commentary on the Torah, the rest of the Tanakh, the Talmud, on the Shulkhan Arukh, on the Mishneh Torah, or on other midrash. Many great rabbis throughout history have written midrash. Midrash are generally not to be taken literally, but they can help when interpreting the text of the book. For example, by the way the way the creation story with Adam and Eve is written, Rashi's commentary suggests that Cain and Abel both had twin sisters. It's not as if they're to be taken literally, indeed, in many cases midrash conflict with other midrash on the same point. Still, that's fine because everyone is entitled to their opinion and it is worthwhile to learn the opinions of another person even if you don't agree with them.