Wrong Perspective About Christians

[sculleywr]

The Rabbis don't hide information because that would be contrary both to their tradition and their objective. (How many minority opinions are stated in the Talmud?) Moreover, all Jews are expected, dare I say encouraged, to develop their own opinions on the Torah and the rest of the Tanakh.

That is a mistake most people make, not understanding how much they hate Jesus. There are few mentions of Jesus in the Talmud, and though not denying that He fulfilled the prophecies, they are derisive.

Just a comment--Chanukah in Jesus's time was radically different from Chanuka today. Today, it is considered a commemoration of the miracle of the menorah of the Temple continuing to burn for eight days following the revolt of the Maccabees, but in Jesus's time it was a commemoration of the military victory of the Maccabees. The change is a result of the influence of the Rabbis.

The rabbis in the jewish faith control everything. I do not deny that they changed it, but that is of little importance here.

There were no synagogues in Jesus's time--The synagogue was a Rabbinical invention as a solution to the fact that the Temple was destroyed and that because of that, Biblical Judaism could no longer be practiced. The synagogue was not developed until after 70 CE, more than 40 years after Jesus supposedly died.

Incorrect, here is a quote from one website and some links to others:

Outside of Solomon’s Temple, there is probably no more important institution in Judaism than the synagogue. The word comes from the Greek synagein, to bring together. A Greek word rather than Hebrew results from the fact that the Hebrew Bible lacks a word for it. The actual origin of the synagogue is lost in history. The consensus of opinion, however, is that the synagogue originated during the Babylonian Exile, beginning in 586 B.C., when deprived of the Temple, Jews would meet from time to time to read the scriptures. Whatever the exact origin, it is during the first century C.E., particularly after the destruction of of the Second Temple by the Romans in 70 A.D. that the synagogue emerges as a well established institution and the center of the social and religious life of the people.

This shows that they were in use long before you say. here are the other links:

http://scheinerman.net/judaism/synagogue/history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synagogue

The Pharisees, not the Rabbis. The Pharisees didn't develop into the Rabbis until after the Temple was destroyed as it wasn't until then that the School of Shammai died out and the School of Hillel became the dominant force.

That is again incorrect. They had rabbinical pharisees as early as they had temples.

Only if you're being taught what Judaism by a Christian priest like most Christians are. A rabbi would have a different perspective--the legitimate Jewish perspective.

Most Christians, especially the group that wants to convert Jews, think that Judaism logically leads to Christianity, something which is simply not true. Judaism leads to Judaism, not Christianity. The Jews are not the people who rejected Jesus, they were the people who continued with their way of life. I will say that Christianity subverted Jewish history and completely reinterpreted the scriptures in order to justify its faith and, more importantly, to prevent people from becoming Jews.

That said, that is a Pauline concept and had nothing to do with Jesus... It was not until long after his death that the idea of Christianity being opposed to Judaism took root.

Judaism is based on the Old Testament. Over 300+ messianic prophecies in there, including the writing of a new covenant. The NT has hundreds of quotes from the OT.

Blood is never kosher.

Jesus was sinless. He was the pure and spotless lamb. That makes His blood kosher, because it wasfree of leaven

That's a Christian conspiracy theory they've gotten into your head to justify you rejecting your heritage and your religion. It's a fallacy--The Rabbis are not any more evil than the Priesthood in Christianity.

You make some pretty big accusations. Now back them up.

That actually is not true. At Jesus's time, only the Levites and the Kohanim (priests) kept kosher. All other Jews were not expected or required to keep kosher because kashrut was considered to only apply to priests. After the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE, the Pharisees, who were already fairly popular, ascended to absolute power and became the Rabbis.

The mandate that all Jews keep kosher is a Rabbinical idea, coupled with the Rabbinical idea that all Jews should live as if they were priests--It did not exist in Biblical Judaism. Consequently, being a Levite or a Kohen in this day and age is little more than a symbolic honor.

There's one other thing of note--None of the ingredients normally used in grape wines are not kosher. Because of that, almost all grape wines are naturally kosher. That said, the Rabbis instituted the idea that due to the liturgical importance of wine in Judaism, a wine is treifah (non-kosher) if it is poured or drank for the purpose of idolatry. Based on that logic, and the way wine is sold nowadays, most wines today would be considered kosher if the winemakers sought out a kosher certification agency, but since most winemakers don't, the only certified kosher wines in the US are made by Manischewitz and Kedem.

You forgot one type. Nazarenes also did not drink fermented wine, and the ingredients used in their unfermented wine, though able to ferment and become unkosher, were deemed by the rabbis as kosher. Jesus was a Nazarene, and Nazarenes are not to drink true wine, by the Old Testament law, explained in the story of Sampson.

Isaiah 53 is still in the Tanakh--What gave you the idea that it isn't?

It is, they just twisted the meaning to say Israel underwent that torture. Problem with that is Israel is the "our" in that passage and the Messiah is the "he"

Jesus didn't live up to prophecy or fulfill the Messianic goals. He wasn't considered the Messiah because he didn't do very many of the things that the Messiah was supposed to do.

Here are some websites showing the prophecies he fulfilled:

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml
www.messianic-prophecy.net/
www.hopeofisrael.net/messiah.htm
www.hopeofisrael.net/messiah1.htm (list of over 300 prophecies Jesus fulfilled)

Quote-mining. The Deuteronomy passage is taken out of context, as is the Matthew passage. I'm not sure about the passage from 1 Timothy, though.

Hate to say it, but he is correct, However, there is an explanation of the Nazarite's rules.

Numbers 6:3

3He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.


Luke 1:15

15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

 

[Teresh]

That is a mistake most people make, not understanding how much they hate Jesus. There are few mentions of Jesus in the Talmud, and though not denying that He fulfilled the prophecies, they are derisive.

A. No, that is a mistake most Christians make in order to justify Anti-Semitism and as a personal justification for converting Jews to their religion. I think it's funny that you think you know more about Judaism than observant Jews do.

B. Jesus isn't even mentioned in the Talmud--Christians have, as a matter of tradition, mistranslated and completely ignored the real meaning in the Talmud in order to vilify the Jewish people.

The rabbis in the jewish faith control everything. I do not deny that they changed it, but that is of little importance here.

That's not true either. The Rabbis have no real power as Rabbis are hired as employees by individual congregations--They are employees, not leaders. The Rabbis are considered learned Jews, but the Rabbinate itself has no real power as the congregation is completely autonomous. Any Jew is qualified to lead services so long as he or she is sufficiently knowledgeable in the procedure that the congregation uses. Indeed, in many congregations, there is no rabbi at all.

The Rabbis are not the leaders of Judaism. The Jews are the leaders of Judaism. Being a rabbi simply means that you've been trained to do a lot of rituals and know a lot of Jewish history that most Jews do not know because they haven't made the effort to learn. Any Jew can be a Rabbi, and no Rabbi is "higher" in Jewish society than any other Jew.

This shows that they were in use long before you say. here are the other links:

http://scheinerman.net/judaism/synagogue/history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synagogue

Did you even read what is at those sites? They state quite clearly that the synagogue did not exist until AFTER the Second Temple was destroyed. Your own sources contradict your argument.

That is again incorrect. They had rabbinical pharisees as early as they had temples.

Temple. There is only one Temple in Judaism, the Temple in Jerusalem which has not been standing for the last 1936 years (as of the 9 Av, which will be in a little less than a month and a half). In modern times, many Reconstructionist, Reform and Conservative synagogues have adopted the name "Temple" for themselves, but that didn't exist until about 150 years ago. The First Temple was built around 950 BCE. There were no Pharisees at that time as the Priesthood (the Levites and the Kohanim) had authority over Jewish worship and practice, though there was also a monarchy. There were also still prophets at this time.

Judaism is based on the Old Testament. Over 300+ messianic prophecies in there, including the writing of a new covenant. The NT has hundreds of quotes from the OT.

Judaism is based on the Torah. The Tanakh is a combination of the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings. The Tanakh is interpreted and expanded on in midrashim and Jewish Law is codified in the Talmud.

There are Messianic prophecies in the Nevi'im (Prophets), yes, but Jesus fulfilled few if any of them whereas the Messiah would fulfill *all* of them.

Christian Scripture has quotes from the Tanakh, but they are usually taken out of context, misinterpreted, mistranslated, or in some cases even completely fabricated.

Jesus was sinless. He was the pure and spotless lamb. That makes His blood kosher, because it wasfree of leaven

Sin has nothing to do with it. Blood is *not* kosher, EVER.

Leviticus 3:17
It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings, that ye shall eat neither fat nor blood.

Kashrut-observant Jews go through a tremendous amount of trouble to ensure that they do not eat any blood in their meat.

You make some pretty big accusations. Now back them up.

Back them up with what? The statement is true--The Rabbis are no worse than the Priests in Christianity. Unless, of course, you are a conspiracy theorist and Anti-Semitic in which case you've forgone logic and reason and therefore trying to disucss anything with you is a waste of time.

You forgot one type. Nazarenes also did not drink fermented wine, and the ingredients used in their unfermented wine, though able to ferment and become unkosher, were deemed by the rabbis as kosher. Jesus was a Nazarene, and Nazarenes are not to drink true wine, by the Old Testament law, explained in the story of Sampson.

The term "Nazarene" did not have the same meaning in the Tanakh as it does when referring to Jesus because the town of Nazareth did not exist yet.

It is, they just twisted the meaning to say Israel underwent that torture. Problem with that is Israel is the "our" in that passage and the Messiah is the "he"

What's to say that it's not YOU changing the meaning of the text rather than the Rabbis? You actually have something to gain by desecrating Jewish history, something the Rabbis, as observant Jews, do not.

Here are some websites showing the prophecies he fulfilled:

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml
www.messianic-prophecy.net/
www.hopeofisrael.net/messiah.htm
www.hopeofisrael.net/messiah1.htm (list of over 300 prophecies Jesus fulfilled)

Here's another fine and unbiased source for you:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org

If you think that Christians write without religious bias when they're talking about Jews, then you're wrong--People do have bias when they write--That's completely normal. I don't say that Jews don't have any bias, only that they're no more biased than Christians.

 

[Cane Corso]

Teresh --

FYI, Jesus was never drunk in His entire life. He was very Humble man among His people on this earth before crucifixion. Show me where did it say that He was drunk in the bible ?

No I am pretty sure he did. There was no clean water past this two centuries beacuse it was full of parasties, feces, and diseases. Many had to drink beers, wines, and other alcohol drinks.

 

[sculleywr]

A. No, that is a mistake most Christians make in order to justify Anti-Semitism and as a personal justification for converting Jews to their religion. I think it's funny that you think you know more about Judaism than observant Jews do.

B. Jesus isn't even mentioned in the Talmud--Christians have, as a matter of tradition, mistranslated and completely ignored the real meaning in the Talmud in order to vilify the Jewish people.

A. Incorrect. We do not justify anti-semitism. And our personal justification for converting Jews is the same as for converting others. Men are all damned, Jew or Gentile, Deaf or hearing (or HOH), Free or bond. I am only a sinner saved by grace.

B. Again, incorrect. According to Louis Lapides, who was previously a Jewish rabbi aspiring to be a leader of his synagogue, Jesus is mentioned in the Talmud.

That's not true either. The Rabbis have no real power as Rabbis are hired as employees by individual congregations--They are employees, not leaders. The Rabbis are considered learned Jews, but the Rabbinate itself has no real power as the congregation is completely autonomous. Any Jew is qualified to lead services so long as he or she is sufficiently knowledgeable in the procedure that the congregation uses. Indeed, in many congregations, there is no rabbi at all.

The Rabbis are not the leaders of Judaism. The Jews are the leaders of Judaism. Being a rabbi simply means that you've been trained to do a lot of rituals and know a lot of Jewish history that most Jews do not know because they haven't made the effort to learn. Any Jew can be a Rabbi, and no Rabbi is "higher" in Jewish society than any other Jew.

The rabbis are the leaders, whether by rank, or by them controlling the propoganda spread. They are the teachers, and thus, they control the Jews, who control Judaism. Thus, they control Judaism.

Did you even read what is at those sites? They state quite clearly that the synagogue did not exist until AFTER the Second Temple was destroyed. Your own sources contradict your argument.

Incorrect. You took the statement and twisted it. They said that they were not as IMPORTANT as they are until after then.

Quoting the one I gave in writing:
The consensus of opinion, however, is that the synagogue originated during the Babylonian Exile, beginning in 586 B.C., when deprived of the Temple, Jews would meet from time to time to read the scriptures.

Tell me how that means it was not in existence.

Temple. There is only one Temple in Judaism, the Temple in Jerusalem which has not been standing for the last 1936 years (as of the 9 Av, which will be in a little less than a month and a half). In modern times, many Reconstructionist, Reform and Conservative synagogues have adopted the name "Temple" for themselves, but that didn't exist until about 150 years ago. The First Temple was built around 950 BCE. There were no Pharisees at that time as the Priesthood (the Levites and the Kohanim) had authority over Jewish worship and practice, though there was also a monarchy. There were also still prophets at this time.

And now they are fulfilling the New Testament prophecy that it will be rebuilt. nice. Check out when Pharisees originated on wikipedia. They were around at 538 BC when the first temple was destroyed.

Judaism is based on the Torah. The Tanakh is a combination of the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings. The Tanakh is interpreted and expanded on in midrashim and Jewish Law is codified in the Talmud.

There are Messianic prophecies in the Nevi'im (Prophets), yes, but Jesus fulfilled few if any of them whereas the Messiah would fulfill *all* of them.

Christian Scripture has quotes from the Tanakh, but they are usually taken out of context, misinterpreted, mistranslated, or in some cases even completely fabricated.

Prove it. The quotes come from the septaguint, the Old Testament of the day. If they were mistranslated, it is the fault of the Jews who recopied it.

Sin has nothing to do with it. Blood is *not* kosher, EVER.

Leviticus 3:17
It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings, that ye shall eat neither fat nor blood.

Kashrut-observant Jews go through a tremendous amount of trouble to ensure that they do not eat any blood in their meat.

Leviticus 9:18
He slew also the bullock and the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings, which was for the people: and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled upon the altar round about,

Deuteronomy 12:27
And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh.

Not kosher? Then why was it poured on the altar of the Lord. Since anything that is un-kosher represents sin, they would not be allowed to pour blood on the altar.

Back them up with what? The statement is true--The Rabbis are no worse than the Priests in Christianity. Unless, of course, you are a conspiracy theorist and Anti-Semitic in which case you've forgone logic and reason and therefore trying to disucss anything with you is a waste of time.

I am a Baptist. We don't have priests.

The term "Nazarene" did not have the same meaning in the Tanakh as it does when referring to Jesus because the town of Nazareth did not exist yet.

I meant Nazarite. sorry, I missed that one, explanation was down at the end.

What's to say that it's not YOU changing the meaning of the text rather than the Rabbis? You actually have something to gain by desecrating Jewish history, something the Rabbis, as observant Jews, do not.

As a casual observer, using the Blue Letter Bible (which has a concordance with the Hebrew words used with their meaning,) The context in which the plural pronouns are used is indicative of a large group of people, while the Iysh (the Hebrew word translated "he") is indicative of a single man.

Here's another fine and unbiased source for you:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org

If you think that Christians write without religious bias when they're talking about Jews, then you're wrong--People do have bias when they write--That's completely normal. I don't say that Jews don't have any bias, only that they're no more biased than Christians.

And if you think that Jews write objectively, just read what you posted. They were downright venemous in some of their statements. I can easily discount what they said by using only the Old Testament. Just look at the way the Jews acted in their history. they went through hundred year (or longer) phases where they were away from God. And the source you used denied that man is inherently evil. Just look at their history and you can disprove that.

 

[Reba]

The Rabbis don't hide information because that would be contrary both to their tradition and their objective. (How many minority opinions are stated in the Talmud?) Moreover, all Jews are expected, dare I say encouraged, to develop their own opinions on the Torah and the rest of the Tanakh.

That reminds me of something a Jewish friend of mine told me. He said that when a Jew needs spiritual counselling, he goes to one rabbi, and then another, and another, until he finds one that agrees with his opinion.

Only if you're being taught what Judaism by a Christian priest like most Christians are.

Only if that Christian belongs to a church that has "priests", such as Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Episcopal, etc. Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc., don't have priests.

I have gone to local rabbis to get information. I made arrangements for our Deaf church group to visit the downtown Orthodox synagogue, with a private tour and chat time with a Kohen there.

Most Christians, especially the group that wants to convert Jews, think that Judaism logically leads to Christianity, something which is simply not true.

You got that right.

The Jews of Jesus time were familiar with the prophetic Scriptures, they heard the foretelling by John the Baptist (actually an OT prophet, not a NT Christian), and were first-hand witnesses to the preaching of Jesus. The gospel was first offered to them. They had all the advantages. But acceptance of the Savior still was not "automatic" nor sweeping for them.

Jews are saved the same way Gentiles are . . . one soul at a time.

Jews also reject the salvation of Jesus the same way as Gentiles do, one at a time.

There is no wholesale group salvation or rejection.

Blood is never kosher.

Not for eatting purposes. But for sacrifice, the blood must be from a clean creature. The OT animal sacrifice had to be spotless, without flaw, and the final divine sacrifice had to be clean, without sin.

Consequently, being a Levite or a Kohen in this day and age is little more than a symbolic honor.

Are you saying that no Jews observe Kosher now? I don't want to misunderstand.

Jesus didn't live up to prophecy or fulfill the Messianic goals. He wasn't considered the Messiah because he didn't do very many of the things that the Messiah was supposed to do.

For example?

 

[hottiedeafboi]

Wow, Sculley and Reba, you both has the gift that enable to share those who also in deep study of more of histories than I do. May His Name be high lifted up. And I say thanks for sharing and God bless you both. Smile

 

[Rose Immortal]

No I am pretty sure he did. There was no clean water past this two centuries beacuse it was full of parasties, feces, and diseases. Many had to drink beers, wines, and other alcohol drinks.

That doesn't mean getting plastered, though. As I said earlier in this thread, most drinks were a LOT weaker back then because they were meant for everyday consumption, not as party drinks.

 

[Reba]

That doesn't mean getting plastered, though. As I said earlier in this thread, most drinks were a LOT weaker back then because they were meant for everyday consumption, not as party drinks.

Correctamundo!

 

[Maria]

No I am pretty sure he did. There was no clean water past this two centuries beacuse it was full of parasties, feces, and diseases. Many had to drink beers, wines, and other alcohol drinks.

I have to say that I disagree with you. In Jesus Christ's Ancient Time, the water was very clean, because there was no pollution to be seen in His Ancient Time like today. Umm, durin' in His Time - He and his 12 disciples gathered up the fishes out of the water and fed people. Soo, it shows obviously that there was no diseases, or parasites, or feces or whatsoever in the water.

As of today we live in : Yes, there is pollution - very dirty water. Some fishes die in the water, river and so forth..and, also diseases. And, even in our water supply that people drink -- there's chlorine in it. I don't drink water from the faucet. I buy water bottles, just to be on safe side.

 

[EagleCherokee63]

Wow, Sculley and Reba, you both has the gift that enable to share those who also in deep study of more of histories than I do. May His Name be high lifted up. And I say thanks for sharing and God bless you both. Smile

Amen! I learn more everyday. Too Thank you Sculley and Reba! Whoa,

 

[Momoftwo]

Amen! I learn more everyday. Too Thank you Sculley and Reba! Whoa,

Yes, I agree with you, Eagle!! Amen! Reba, Sculley, EagleCherokee63 and Hottieboi, thank you so much for your huge patient for helping many people to learn about God. All of you are blessed by God!!

 

[EagleCherokee63]

Yes, I agree with you, Eagle!! Amen! Reba, Sculley, EagleCherokee63 and Hottieboi, thank you so much for your huge patient for helping many people to learn about God. All of you are blessed by God!!

 

[Throwstones]

Amen! I learn more everyday. Too Thank you Sculley and Reba! Whoa,

Wow Whoa!!!! Sculley and Reba are doing good job to lecture this issues on behalf of my issue to tell the truth to Teresh. Pray for Teresh who needs Salvation!

THROWSTONES

 

[Throwstones]

NOTE: Teresh is a counter-missionary to work with rabbis and can involved in Jews for Judaism. You know what means counter-missionary? It is called "anti-missionary" which means to brainwash any jewish believer to deny the Messiah Y'shua and go back to judaism that is Counter-missionary's job duty.

I have experienced to be around counter-missionaries on the streets in Los Angeles and New York City and over the phone in past years. They are so hard head and bully, very rude. They did try to brainwash me but I resisted them to do a job on me. I keep my faith in Messiah Jesus and refuse denying Him period! Sorry, I still laugh at the counter-missionaries is because they waste their times to argue and did not open their mind to understand fully; their emotions go up and grrrrrrr at me as messianic Jewish missionary because I keep preaching the Gospel to the deaf and hearing jews about the Messiah Jesus. Therefore God in heaven bless me and my ministry to the deaf Jews for God's sake! I obey God's commandment, "And he (Jesus) said unto them (disciple), Go You into all the world, and preach the gospel to people." Mark 16:15 No one can stop me from preaching the Gospel to anyone!

For your information, if a person (narrow mind and close heart) wants to argue with you and push you, you have to ingore and not answer to that person. Pray for narrow mind person. Unless a person is opening a heart to desire and know more about God's word, it is worth to discuss with the person before leading a person to the salvation's road.

Throwstones
Missionary to the Deaf Jews

 

[Reba]

Yes, I agree with you, Eagle!! Amen! Reba, Sculley, EagleCherokee63 and Hottieboi, thank you so much for your huge patient for helping many people to learn about God. All of you are blessed by God!!

We all learn much from each other. :P I appreciate the encouragement.

 

[Teresh]

A. Incorrect. We do not justify anti-semitism. And our personal justification for converting Jews is the same as for converting others. Men are all damned, Jew or Gentile, Deaf or hearing (or HOH), Free or bond. I am only a sinner saved by grace.

Christianity isn't the only religion that believes all men are damned from birth, but it's the only major one that does. You want to convert people because you have an internal hate of humanity--or, rather, you believe all humanity is bad from birth and that Jesus is the only way to save them. Sadly, you are mistaken, but that's a purely theological issue.

Humans are saved through human action, not faith in Jesus. But you're a Christian, so you'll never understand that concept.

B. Again, incorrect. According to Louis Lapides, who was previously a Jewish rabbi aspiring to be a leader of his synagogue, Jesus is mentioned in the Talmud.

Louis Lapides is a Christian ordained by the Evangelical Free Church of America. If he is a Jew at all, he knows little or nothing about Judaism. He does not have a rabbinical ordination, so I have serious doubts he knows anything at all about Jewish law or the contents of the Talmud.

Cite people who actually know what they're talking about. Cite qualified rabbinic authorities, not a missionary to Jews who is willing to pretend to be qualified and knowledgable in order to deceive Jews into converting.

The rabbis are the leaders, whether by rank, or by them controlling the propoganda spread. They are the teachers, and thus, they control the Jews, who control Judaism. Thus, they control Judaism.

The Rabbis are teachers. Are you going to make an argument that the American school system controls the country because they teach children how to read and write? If you're willing to make that argument, then and only then can you say that the Rabbis control Judaism.

Incorrect. You took the statement and twisted it. They said that they were not as IMPORTANT as they are until after then.

Quoting the one I gave in writing:
The consensus of opinion, however, is that the synagogue originated during the Babylonian Exile, beginning in 586 B.C., when deprived of the Temple, Jews would meet from time to time to read the scriptures.

Tell me how that means it was not in existence.

That is not the general consensus. It's a misconception held by some, but it is not the consensus.

And now they are fulfilling the New Testament prophecy that it will be rebuilt.

That's not true. No one is currently trying to rebuild the temple and the opinion among the majority of the world's Jews is that the Temple should not and should never be rebuilt. Only a few elements of the Ultra-Orthodox are trying to get it rebuilt and they're as far off the fringe as one can get.

Check out when Pharisees originated on wikipedia. They were around at 538 BC when the first temple was destroyed.

Right--They didn't exist until AFTER the Temple was destroyed, not before, which is what I said the first time.

Prove it. The quotes come from the septaguint, the Old Testament of the day. If they were mistranslated, it is the fault of the Jews who recopied it.

The Septuagint is a translation of the Tanakh from Hebrew to Greek. You place fault on the Jews with the Septuagint because you don't want to question your beliefs. But that's the Christian way, so you're giving the right answer in the scope of your religion.

Leviticus 9:18
He slew also the bullock and the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings, which was for the people: and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled upon the altar round about,

Deuteronomy 12:27
And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh.

That doesn't mean they *ate* the blood.

Not kosher? Then why was it poured on the altar of the Lord. Since anything that is un-kosher represents sin, they would not be allowed to pour blood on the altar.

No, that's not the case either. You really don't understand kashrut as well as you'd like to think you do. Kashrut doesn't represent sin. Kashrut represents purity.

I am a Baptist. We don't have priests.

Then you have pastors, ministers, etc. which are the same thing.

As a casual observer, using the Blue Letter Bible (which has a concordance with the Hebrew words used with their meaning,) The context in which the plural pronouns are used is indicative of a large group of people, while the Iysh (the Hebrew word translated "he") is indicative of a single man.

I'm not familiar with the Blue Letter Bible. What language is it in?

And if you think that Jews write objectively, just read what you posted.

I didn't say that Jews write objectively either--Actually, I said exactly the opposite. Stop putting words in my mouth.

And the source you used denied that man is inherently evil. Just look at their history and you can disprove that.

It's very easy to deny it--Judaism does not have the concept of original sin. That concept was invented by Christians. Humans can and do sin in their lives, but they start with a clean slate and a capability to do both good and evil. How one is judged by God is determined by how one acts, not what one believes in.

That reminds me of something a Jewish friend of mine told me. He said that when a Jew needs spiritual counselling, he goes to one rabbi, and then another, and another, until he finds one that agrees with his opinion.

The running joke is that if you have two Jews talk about anything you'll get three opinions. It's a fact that there are a lot of different opinions within the Jewish community because there is no set creed. Personally, though, I'd say the community is better for that.

I have gone to local rabbis to get information. I made arrangements for our Deaf church group to visit the downtown Orthodox synagogue, with a private tour and chat time with a Kohen there.

I have to say I don't like Orthodox synagogues for a variety of reasons, the presence of mechitzot being a big one.

Are you saying that no Jews observe Kosher now? I don't want to misunderstand.

Orthodox and Haredi Jews are expected to keep kosher and being part of one of those communities essentially requires it.

Conservative Jews keep kosher, but the Conservative movement has made an interpretation that some processed foods that would not be kosher unprocessed become kosher as a result of the way they are processed. I admit I don't fully understand how the Conservative movement has adapted the rules to modernity.

Reconstructionist Judaism's position is that that Kashrut is important, but advocates it in a non-binding fashion--Individuals may choose to not keep kosher if that is their choice.

Reform Judaism's original position was that Kashrut was no longer relevant and should be abolished, but there's a growing minority now that advocates a position similar to that ofthe Reconstructionist movement--that Kashrut is a way that Jews can bring holiness into their lives.

While in Biblical Judaism only the priests kept kosher, Rabbinical teaching holds that all Jews should live as if they are priests, thus all of the rules that would have applied only to priests under the Rabbis apply to everyone. This teaching worked because the Priesthood would no longer be able to claim any real authority with the Temple destroyed and Rome saying very clearly that they would never allow it to be rebuilt.

For example?

The virgin birth. How is Jesus supposed to be patrilinearly descended from King David if he didn't have a father? Moreover, why does the geneaology in Luke trace Joseph back to Nathan rather than Solomon?


Edit:

NOTE: Teresh is a counter-missionary to work with rabbis and can involved in Jews for Judaism. You know what means counter-missionary? It is called "anti-missionary" which means to brainwash any jewish believer to deny the Messiah Y'shua and go back to judaism that is Counter-missionary's job duty.

A. I'm a member of their forum, but I don't post and I'm not a Jew.

B. It's funny that you think Jews for Judaism seeks to brainwash people and that Jews for Jesus isn't doing exactly the same thing.

 

[Throwstones]

Edit:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Throwstones
NOTE: Teresh is a counter-missionary to work with rabbis and can involved in Jews for Judaism. You know what means counter-missionary? It is called "anti-missionary" which means to brainwash any jewish believer to deny the Messiah Y'shua and go back to judaism that is Counter-missionary's job duty.



A. I'm a member of their forum, but I don't post and I'm not a Jew.

B. It's funny that you think Jews for Judaism seeks to brainwash people and that Jews for Jesus isn't doing exactly the same thing.



Now my answer to you, Teresh... Since you did IM me few weeks ago and you told me that you work with the rabbis and admit to be counter-missionary. In fact, you do not believe what Jews for Judaism is doing a brainwashing. IT IS VERY TRUE, I already researched it in past. My cousin did work for Jews for Judaism and told me everything about it. Even a counter-missionaries did face to face me in person in Los Angeles and New York City; they did admit to me that they are deprogrammers (same as brainwashers). Thatis their doing to deprogram the messianic jews. It is against the law for any deprogrammers to do against person's will! I already experience with the situation in past. Now you are too younger, not understand this fact of deprogrammer. Also you said you are not jewish, then why you work with rabbi even you are not jewish??? Even not jewish blood.

Throwstones

 

[Momoftwo]

We all learn much from each other. :P I appreciate the encouragement.

Hi Reba!!

Your welcome!!

Momoftwo

 

[Teresh]

Now my answer to you, Teresh... Since you did IM me few weeks ago and you told me that you work with the rabbis and admit to be counter-missionary.

I want people to have a spiritual relationship with God. Exactly what religion the person is practicing doesn't matter to me so long as they have that and respect the beliefs of others.

The problem I have with Jews for Jesus as an organisation is that they do not respect the beliefs of other people. In fact, they actively try to change the beliefs of other people in order to have more of their own. Then, the proselyte is encouraged to go out, as you do, and try to convert others.

You and the organisations of people like you do not respect the beliefs of other people... That is why I find myself diametrically opposed to people like you. The Jesus thing is not the most important thing, it's the utter lack of respect or reverance for other people's beliefs and traditions.

In fact, you do not believe what Jews for Judaism is doing a brainwashing.

Who said I don't think that? I certainly didn't. You're putting words in my mouth.

IT IS VERY TRUE, I already researched it in past. My cousin did work for Jews for Judaism and told me everything about it. Even a counter-missionaries did face to face me in person in Los Angeles and New York City; they did admit to me that they are deprogrammers (same as brainwashers).

Deprogramming is the opposite of brainwashing... Since Jews for Jesus brainwashes its proselytes as a matter of policy, it is logical that a person who has joined that organisation from a Jewish background would need to be un-brainwashed.

Thatis their doing to deprogram the messianic jews. It is against the law for any deprogrammers to do against person's will!

A. It's not illegal... If it is, then Jews for Jesus is just as guilty.

B. Jews for Judaism does not force anyone to follow Judaism as a religion. Rather, it merely encourages Jews to embrace their religion and its spirituality rather than rejecting it and converting to something else.

I already experience with the situation in past. Now you are too younger, not understand this fact of deprogrammer.

My age should not be incredibly important here because I am well-educated (perhaps better than you are) and I don't have an axe to grind with people who don't follow my religion.

Judaism teaches that all people, righteous or wicked, will reap what they sow in the afterlife if there is one. I'm inclined to agree. There are good people of every faith and creed and wicked people of every faith and creed and it's just plainly irrational to suggest that the righteous Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Taoists, Atheists, et al. will all go to hell (if there is one) because they didn't believe Jesus was a god.

Obviously, you will disagree with me on this point, but that reflects the fact that while you are a Jew by law you are a Christian by practice and belief, regardless of how hard you work to emulate Jewish practice.

Also you said you are not jewish, then why you work with rabbi even you are not jewish??? Even not jewish blood.

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said I "work with the Rabbis" nor did I ever claim to be a Jew. I claim to be a Noachide, an informal ger toshav if you will, but not a Jew.

But you're also using the term Rabbis as if it were some kind of massive conspiracy. A typical Christian vantage point, but not even remotely true when you actually understand Rabbinical Judaism as a religion. Actually, depending on your rationale for it, it could be said to be Anti-Semitic as it would imply that the Jews as a matter of policy work to deceive people.

You are a Jew, raised in a Reform household if I recall--Were you ever taught to lie to people as a matter of principle?

 

[Momoftwo]

Teresh-

You said,

"My age should not be incredibly important here because I am well-educated (perhaps better than you are)


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look at your own words....do you think it's okay to say your words to someone? What does it mean to you if you were not Teresh?