World Comparison

[jillio]

right, and my point is that we need to deal with the root of the problem. Suicides, mental illness, anger management etc. Because one way another, they will use something that result death

And that still has absolutely nothing to do with the data regarding the number of deaths by gunfire. People in other countries commit suicide too. Their number of total deaths are still below that which is found in the United States.

 

[Jiro]

I have not seen where you have offered even an explanation of the data, let alone a solution to the problem indicated by the data. However, if you wish to do so, I suggest you start another thread devoted to sociological and criminological theory as applied to the data. That is not the purpose nor the intent of this thread.

Looks like you have trouble following the thread.

1. Anybody can get data from CDC and interpret it in any way they want.
2. Children's Defense Fund interpreted the data in their way with agenda in their mind and drew a conclusive claim
3. I have provided peer-reviewed scholarly paper that disputed Children's Defense Fund's claim
4. Sociological and Criminological theory are quite relevant to this thread as this thread is about guns. Those fields are dedicated to gun issue. I have used experts' testimonies to dispute your claim
5. the explanation of data is in peer-reviewed scholarly source that I provided for you, Jillio.... and their expert opinion (which weighs far more than yours) stated that it is INCONCLUSIVE
6. Lastly - are you attempting to turn this thread into uncivilized debate? See my post #3 and #36 and #38 that were for Liebling. How exactly is that personal attacks and insults?

Really, Jillio.... maybe you need to take a time-out.

 

[Jiro]

And that still has absolutely nothing to do with the data regarding the number of deaths by gunfire. People in other countries commit suicide too. Their number of total deaths are still below that which is found in the United States.

and it has nothing to do with gun either. Just because they commit the suicide by gun doesn't warrant any further gun restriction. This means we need to look at this issue with sociological/psychological view to understand what prompted them to commit the suicide.

If you take away the gun, they will commit the suicide in any other way they can - cutting their wrist (ban blade?), jumping off the bridge (ban bridge walkaway?), OD'ing on OTC/prescription drugs (regulate drug to Big Brother level?), or hanging (make all ropes weaker?).

 

[jillio]

Looks like you have trouble following the thread.

1. Anybody can get data from CDC and interpret it in any way they want.
2. Children's Defense Fund interpreted the data in their way with agenda in their mind and drew a conclusive claim
3. I have provided peer-reviewed scholarly paper that disputed Children's Defense Fund's claim
4. Sociological and Criminological theory are quite relevant to this thread as this thread is about guns. Those fields are dedicated to gun issue. I have used experts' testimonies to dispute your claim
5. the explanation of data is in peer-reviewed scholarly source that I provided for you, Jillio.... and their expert opinion (which weighs far more than yours) stated that it is INCONCLUSIVE
6. Lastly - are you attempting to turn this thread into uncivilized debate? See my post #3 and #36 and #38 that were for Liebling. How exactly is that personal attacks and insults?

Really, Jillio.... maybe you need to take a time-out.

You still don't get it. The numbers have not been interpreted in what I have posted. They have simply been reported as raw data. Your problem is that you can't argue with the raw data. The Chidlren's Defense Fund wasn't drawing a conclusion. They were reporting the raw numbers and the time sequence.

You have provided one article. That in no way changes the numbers regarding the deaths from gunfire.

Okay, if theory is relevent, pick one and apply it.

Your article in no way disputes anything I have posted. It does not change the numbers.

And under what theory are they offering that explanation, Jiro? What theory could be applied to contradict that explanation? Since theory is an important part of this discussion for you, let's discuss it. How could the theory of symbolic interactionism be used to explain the raw data? How could conflict theory be used to explain the raw data? You want to discuss applicable theory? I'm game. Go right ahead.

And I have not been uncivilized in any way. I really wish I could say the same for you.

 

[shel90]

Jiro, I think I know why there is this argument in the first place. I think it is that guns are capable of killing many people just from one time use while other weapons, u cant. Yes, if we ban guns , murderers will still find a way to kill but if the gangs dont have guns, the number of innocent killings would probably go down as it would be harder to kill as many at once with a knife.

That's probably why there is this argument about guns being banned and etc.

 

[Jiro]

No, it isn't. The number of successful suicides committed through overdose has virtually no bearing on the total number of deaths attributed to firearms.

:facepalm:

I think you are a bit confused regarding FERPA legislation.

Why don't you read VT & NIU case files again? There was a controversy in those cases about medical confidentiality from school file.
So no I'm not a "bit" confused

Like I said - a history of mental illness is an AUTOMATIC DISQUALIFICATION. Should school notify government of student's history of mental illness?

 

[jillio]

and it has nothing to do with gun either. Just because they commit the suicide by gun doesn't warrant any further gun restriction. This means we need to look at this issue with sociological/psychological view to understand what prompted them to commit the suicide.

If you take away the gun, they will commit the suicide in any other way they can - cutting their wrist (ban blade?), jumping off the bridge (ban bridge walkaway?), OD'ing on OTC/prescription drugs (regulate drug to Big Brother level?), or hanging (make all ropes weaker?).

Are you being purposely obtuse, or do you really not understand that death by gun is death by gun when it comes to the raw data? You cannot exclude those deaths from the numbers when reporting the raw data.

 

[jillio]

:facepalm:


Why don't you read VT & NIU case files again? There was a controversy in those cases about medical confidentiality from school file.
So no I'm not a "bit" confused

Like I said - a history of mental illness is an AUTOMATIC DISQUALIFICATION. Should school notify government of student's history of mental illness?

Why don't you read FERPA legislation? You are confused regarding its application or what it even is. The Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 (FERPA), also known as the Buckley Amendment, affirms the rights of all individuals to their school records, including test records.

 

[Jiro]

Jiro, I think I know why there is this argument in the first place. I think it is that guns are capable of killing many people just from one time use while other weapons, u cant. Yes, if we ban guns , murderers will still find a way to kill but if the gangs dont have guns, the number of innocent killings would probably go down as it would be harder to kill as many at once with a knife.

That's probably why there is this argument about guns being banned and etc.

Here's precisely what's wrong with "ban" thing. We banned drugs. What happened? drug sales went up. drug crimes went up. drugs still come to this country. Same thing will happen to banning guns. I'm FAR FAR more concerned about ILLEGAL GUNS than people using LEGAL GUNS for suicides. People using guns to commit suicide hurt nobody but themselves.

Let's assume the federal gun law is so restrictive that it's at the point where it's nearly impossible to own one. Criminals use ILLEGAL GUNS (obtained from Mexico or wherever) to murder/rape/mug/etc. the innocent citizens who cannot get guns for self-defense. Now you see something wrong with this picture? I believe my post #38 is one of reasonable example to fixing this issue.

Beside - the founding fathers gave us Amendment 2. To ban gun.... that means removing the Amendment 2 from the Constitution. What's next? First Amendment? That's the very principle of it that I'm also arguing about.

As I mentioned in post #36 for Liebling - "I think we can come to agreement on gun control law. Can you give me some examples of your idea on gun control law to fix the illegal gun issue?"

 

[Jiro]

Why don't you read FERPA legislation? You are confused regarding its application or what it even is. The Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 (FERPA), also known as the Buckley Amendment, affirms the rights of all individuals to their school records, including test records.

I forgot to mention HIPAA as well.

here it is (link) -

Both the Family and Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) and the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) protects the privacy of student records. HIPAA mandates strict adherence to the Privacy Rule, requiring confidentiality in all forms- oral, written or electronic - around individually identifiable information or health status. FERPA mandates that all schools receiving federal funding are required to keep a student’s education record confidential. For specific parameters on HIPAA, go to http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa//. For FERPA, go to Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA).

 

[Twinkletoes]

Here's precisely what's wrong with "ban" thing. We banned drugs. What happened? drug sales went up. drug crimes went up. drugs still come to this country. Same thing will happen to banning guns. I'm FAR FAR more concerned about ILLEGAL GUNS than people using LEGAL GUNS for suicides. People using guns to commit suicide hurt nobody but themselves.

Let's assume the federal gun law is so restrictive that it's at the point where it's nearly impossible to own one. Criminals use ILLEGAL GUNS (obtained from Mexico or wherever) to murder/rape/mug/etc. the innocent citizens who cannot get guns for self-defense. Now you see something wrong with this picture? I believe my post #38 is one of reasonable example to fixing this issue.

Beside - the founding fathers gave us Amendment 2. To ban gun.... that means removing the Amendment 2 from the Constitution. What's next? First Amendment? That's the very principle of it that I'm also arguing about.

As I mentioned in post #36 for Liebling - "I think we can come to agreement on gun control law. Can you give me some examples of your idea on gun control law to fix the illegal gun issue?"

Post #38 doesn't make sense as it is stated:

Liebling - about Switzerland.... I'd like to say one thing.

Switzerland has a compulsory military service - "Swiss Militia Model." They are fully-educated and fully-trained about guns. There are gun ranges EVERYWHERE in Switzerland while we have GOLF RANGES everywhere in America.

One of the reasons why gun-related deaths was low in USA compared to now was because USA once had a compulsory military service. I don't know if you remember my old post but I stated that I would like a compulsory military service to return in America but in a revised, more flexible version. I'm very very big on concept of Civil Service which was one of the main highlights of FDR's program. I have heard that Obama will promote similar concept.

here's something for you to read - The Wall Street Journal Europe.

Can you clairfy please.

 

[Jiro]

Can you clairfy please.

I thought it's pretty easy and straightforward to understand but I'll clarify for you. Which part is it that you would like me to clarify further on?

 

[jillio]

I forgot to mention HIPAA as well.

here it is (link) -

You obviously are confused regarding HIPPA as well. It doesn't apply to this topic anymore than FERPA does. Yes, confidentiality of records is guaranteed by law. FERPA asserts the right of the individual to obtain copies of any and all school records. HIPPA insures the privacy of medical and counseling records. However, there are numerous exceptions that exempt a school or an individual practitioner from these guarantees of confidentiality.

You really don't want to get into a discussion of HIPPA and FERPA and confidentiality with me. You don't have the background to do it. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the number of deaths every year in the United States and other Westernized countries from gun fire.
I'm still waiting for the theoretical discussion.

 

[Twinkletoes]

I thought it's pretty easy and straightforward to understand but I'll clarify for you. Which part is it that you would like me to clarify further on?

The second paragraph tying it to post #38.

 

[Jiro]

You obviously are confused regarding HIPPA as well. It doesn't apply to this topic anymore than FERPA does. Do you even know what the acronym "HIPPA" stands for?

um...... it's HIPAA.... not HIPPA..... :| here's something for you to read - As the result of VT shooting - President Bush signed H.R. 2640 and U.S. Department of Education announced a proposal change in FERPA (link) - an issue of individual privacy and public safety.

SUMMARY: The Secretary proposes to amend the regulations governing education records maintained by educational agencies and institutions under section 444 of the General Education Provisions Act, which is also known as the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974, as
amended (FERPA). These proposed regulations are needed to implement amendments to FERPA contained in the USA Patriot Act and the Campus Sex Crimes Prevention Act, to implement two U.S. Supreme Court decisions interpreting FERPA, and to make necessary changes identified as a result of the Department's experience administering FERPA and current regulations. These changes would clarify permissible disclosures to parents of eligible students and conditions that apply to disclosures in health and safety emergencies; clarify permissible disclosures of student identifiers as directory information; allow disclosures to contractors and other outside parties in connection with the outsourcing of institutional services and functions; revise the definitions of attendance, disclosure, education records, personally identifiable information, and other key terms; clarify permissible redisclosures by State and Federal officials; and update investigation and enforcement provisions.

really, Jillio...... heed my advice - take a time-out and walk away.

 

[jillio]

um...... it's HIPAA.... not HIPPA..... :| here's something for you to read - As the result of VT shooting - President Bush signed H.R. 2640 and U.S. Department of Education announced a proposal change in FERPA (link) - an issue of individual privacy and public safety.



really, Jillio...... heed my advice - take a time-out and walk away.

And this is where you are totally confused, Jiro, as there are already legal guidelines in place that provide for exceptions anytime an individual is considered to be a danger to themselves or others. You truly don't understand the intent of either FERPA or HIPAA, and therefore, are making comments that are totally irrelevent and off topic. I can point you to legal precendent for the exclusions.

But again, HIPAA and FERPA are not applicable to the discussion of how many gun deaths there are in the United States of America compared to other Westernized countries.

What happened to your desire to bring theoretical application to the table?

 

[shel90]

Isnt HIPAA related to Health Information Privacy? That's about the safety of patients. What does it have to do with the number of gun-related shootings/deaths in the USA?

FERPA is related to schools and education.

 

[Jiro]

And this is where you are totally confused, Jiro, as there are already legal guidelines in place that provide for exceptions anytime an individual is considered to be a danger to themselves or others. You truly don't understand the intent of either FERPA or HIPAA, and therefore, are making comments that are totally irrelevent and off topic. I can point you to legal precendent for the exclusions.

I have already pointed you to source. If you have a problem with it - tell that to U.S. Department of Education, Supreme Court or whoever.

Good Luck!

But again, HIPAA and FERPA are not applicable to the discussion of how many gun deaths there are in the United States of America compared to other Westernized countries.

:facepalm:

Again - there are many causes for gun deaths. Mental Illness is one of them. Suicide, remember? Again - we are not merely talking about numbers. We are also talking about gun control law as stated in OP's post.

Do you have any suggestion? I have repeatedly asked you that and you have yet to offer any.

 

[shel90]

Here's precisely what's wrong with "ban" thing. We banned drugs. What happened? drug sales went up. drug crimes went up. drugs still come to this country. Same thing will happen to banning guns. I'm FAR FAR more concerned about ILLEGAL GUNS than people using LEGAL GUNS for suicides. People using guns to commit suicide hurt nobody but themselves.

Let's assume the federal gun law is so restrictive that it's at the point where it's nearly impossible to own one. Criminals use ILLEGAL GUNS (obtained from Mexico or wherever) to murder/rape/mug/etc. the innocent citizens who cannot get guns for self-defense. Now you see something wrong with this picture? I believe my post #38 is one of reasonable example to fixing this issue.

Beside - the founding fathers gave us Amendment 2. To ban gun.... that means removing the Amendment 2 from the Constitution. What's next? First Amendment? That's the very principle of it that I'm also arguing about.

As I mentioned in post #36 for Liebling - "I think we can come to agreement on gun control law. Can you give me some examples of your idea on gun control law to fix the illegal gun issue?"

If the criminals are still obtaining illegal guns through the black market, how do you propose to solve this problem?

 

[Jiro]

Isnt HIPAA related to Health Information Privacy? That's about the safety of patients. What does it have to do with the number of gun-related shootings/deaths in the USA?

FERPA is related to schools and education.

That's the very basic highlight of it. I'll repost the summary of proposed changes -

These proposed regulations are needed to implement amendments to FERPA contained in the USA Patriot Act and the Campus Sex Crimes Prevention Act, to implement two U.S. Supreme Court decisions interpreting FERPA, and to make necessary changes identified as a result of the Department's experience administering FERPA and current regulations. These changes would clarify permissible disclosures to parents of eligible students and conditions that apply to disclosures in health and safety emergencies; clarify permissible disclosures of student identifiers as directory information; allow disclosures to contractors and other outside parties in connection with the outsourcing of institutional services and functions; revise the definitions of attendance, disclosure, education records, personally identifiable information, and other key terms; clarify permissible redisclosures by State and Federal officials; and update investigation and enforcement provisions.

in other word - a tricky balance between individual privacy and public safety. This is not just about gun crimes. This is about SCHOOL SHOOTINGS.