The Deaf Community

[Jiro]

I have shown studies that show that AV students match hearing kids in all areas of development, including self esteem and that Deaf schools in both California, and now West Virgina have less than 15% (and 9% in WV) of their students can read on grade level.

and then as adult?

 

[rockdrummer]

Audism is a support of the idea that hearing is better than Deaf and speaking is superior to ASL. Reverse audism would be the idea that ASL and ASL users are superior to oral deaf people.

Actually if my memory serves me correctly, that falls under the definition of audism as coined and defined by Tom Humphries.

 

[shel90]

No, it is very clear that you support ASL as the first and primary language and written English taught through ASL as the second language. You also support speech therapy, outside of school.

I think you got me mixed up with someone else.

 

[BecLak]

I totally agree. Just because someone hasn't memorized what school you went to, what language you grew up using, and how "oral" you are, does not mean that they can't read.

Can you imagine the firestorm that would rain down if a hearing person accused an ASL user of being unable to read??? If the hearing person made fun of their writing? AUDISM, much? PFH is doing EXACTLY the same thing. He is saying that oral people and spoken language are inferior to ASL and ASL users.

PFH has never implied oral people and those who speak are inferior to ASL and ASL users, I and Shel90, and Katrina B who were raised oral, seem to get along fine with PFH and he us.

It is AUDISM (a purely hearing only perspective) that we are protesting against. It appears that the discussion on this thread has been sidetracked completely off topic.

FJ, It really puzzles me as to the reason you come on AD's forum as you are
constantly pushing the 'hearing' perspective on us. AD is a place where Hearing can bridge gaps in understanding the Deaf and the Deaf Community. Many deaf come here to find solace from the hearing world.

 

[rockdrummer]

Audism is a support of the idea that hearing is better than Deaf and speaking is superior to ASL. Reverse audism would be the idea that ASL and ASL users are superior to oral deaf people.

Actually if my memory serves me correctly, that falls under the definition of audism as coined and defined by Tom Humphries.

My apologies, After double checking, you are correct. Your definition would be reverse audisim. Perhaps called deafism.

 

[springtime]

surgeons? already paid it off way before we can. and mailman doesn't even have a college tuition debt to pay off.

What makes you think no 'mailman' went to college? You'd be suprised. BTW, around 25% of 'mailmen' are women.

Where are you getting your ideas on 'mailman' salary? You seem to be overstating them. And they do work very hard, just like other professions listed in this thread .

The United States Postal Service is one of the biggest employers of Deaf/HOH people!

 

[Daredevel7]

It seems like a parent who chooses oral only routine could be perceived as audism.

By that definition, a parent who chooses ASL + written English only could be perceived as "reverse audism"

What about a parent who chooses oral only in the early years and allows the older child to learn ASL later? Is that still audism?

What about a parent who chooses ASL + written English in the early years and allows the older child to learn oral skills later? Is that still reverse audism?

Funny how a CHOICE of a way to do things automatically means you are against the other ways.

That's why people talk about Bi-bi approach, "a full toolbox" approach giving the illusion that you are giving your child EVERYTHING, but honestly, for me, that's not the case. The approach is balancing what you CAN give to your child and limits of time, information, environment (location, family, and cost), and appropriate rate of development. After all, you don't want to burn out your child.

For a lot of people here on AD, they believe that the bi-bi approach is the best rate of return in terms of education and social development.

 

[shel90]

PFH has never implied oral people and those who speak are inferior to ASL and ASL users, I and Shel90, and Katrina B who were raised oral, seem to get along fine with PFH and he us.

It is AUDISM (a purely hearing only perspective) that we are protesting against. It appears that the discussion on this thread has been sidetracked completely off topic.

FJ, It really puzzles me as to the reason you come on AD's forum as you are
constantly pushing the 'hearing' perspective on us. AD is a place where Hearing can bridge gaps in understanding the Deaf and the Deaf Community. Many deaf come here to find solace from the hearing world.

FJ has been told that by other members but she doesnt see it.

 

[Jiro]

What makes you think no 'mailman' went to college? You'd be suprised. BTW, around 25% of 'mailmen' are women.

I'm being lazy but when I say mailman - I'm referring to all postal workers, regardless of gender. It's just easier to say it.

Where are you getting your ideas on 'mailman' salary?

PayScale - Postal Salaries - Postal Service Mail Carrier Salary
Usps Salaries | Simply Hired
USPS's average salary is $51,000
Teacher's average salary is $43,000

You seem to be overstating them. And they do work very hard, just like other professions listed in this thread .

yes I don't doubt that they work hard but compared to teacher's job? easy job. At least mailman is not required to get additional degree from college and certifications and also to pass the state exam.

oh and mailman's benefits? It makes teacher's benefit looks more shameful than a college student's basic coverage.

The United States Postal Service is one of the biggest employers of Deaf/HOH people!

cool. wonder what most of them do.

Mind you - I've got nothing against USPS workers. They have my utmost respect but I've got a problem with disproportion in career value. How is it that the salary of low-level career is higher or equivalent to high-level career?

Like... a subway conductor makes as much as doctor. This is not right.

 

[Jiro]

It seems like a parent who chooses oral only routine could be perceived as audism.

By that definition, a parent who chooses ASL + written English only could be perceived as "reverse audism"

What about a parent who chooses oral only in the early years and allows the older child to learn ASL later? Is that still audism?

What about a parent who chooses ASL + written English in the early years and allows the older child to learn oral skills later? Is that still reverse audism?

Funny how a CHOICE of a way to do things automatically means you are against the other ways.

That's why people talk about Bi-bi approach, "a full toolbox" approach giving the illusion that you are giving your child EVERYTHING, but honestly, for me, that's not the case. The approach is balancing what you CAN give to your child and limits of time, information, environment (location, family, and cost), and appropriate rate of development. After all, you don't want to burn out your child.

For a lot of people here on AD, they believe that the bi-bi approach is the best rate of return in terms of education and social development.

what would be the reason for parents allowing children to learn ASL at later age?

 

[shel90]

It seems like a parent who chooses oral only routine could be perceived as audism.

By that definition, a parent who chooses ASL + written English only could be perceived as "reverse audism"

What about a parent who chooses oral only in the early years and allows the older child to learn ASL later? Is that still audism?

What about a parent who chooses ASL + written English in the early years and allows the older child to learn oral skills later? Is that still reverse audism?

Funny how a CHOICE of a way to do things automatically means you are against the other ways.

That's why people talk about Bi-bi approach, "a full toolbox" approach giving the illusion that you are giving your child EVERYTHING, but honestly, for me, that's not the case. The approach is balancing what you CAN give to your child and limits of time, information, environment (location, family, and cost), and appropriate rate of development. After all, you don't want to burn out your child.

For a lot of people here on AD, they believe that the bi-bi approach is the best rate of return in terms of education and social development.

I have seen children and adults who have grown up with both approaches. They dont seem burnt out to me. I know many Deaf people who grew up with both who still remain to be in both worlds. They have told me of some of their childhood friends who have chosen to be in the hearing world full time while others have chosen not to have anything to do with the hearing world.

It seems to me that most Deaf people are happy having both.

 

[springtime]

I'm being lazy but when I say mailman - I'm referring to all postal workers, regardless of gender. It's just easier to say it.


PayScale - Postal Salaries - Postal Service Mail Carrier Salary
Usps Salaries | Simply Hired
USPS's average salary is $51,000
Teacher's average salary is $43,000


.

The salary quoted here is the average for service-wide (including management). The actual average carrier salary is closer to the teacher one-and the teacher one varies by state. My state is higher-believe me, I'm glad teachers get it! It's just that it's popular to bash letter carriers, and the Postal Service in general, these days. Not saying you are, just that there are misconceptions out there.

I don't know a statistical breakdown of what Deaf/Hoh people do in the USPS, but I think most of them work in mail processing, such as clerk or mailhandler. Some are in management, as well.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

I have seen children and adults who have grown up with both approaches. They dont seem burnt out to me. I know many Deaf people who grew up with both who still remain to be in both worlds. They have told me of some of their childhood friends who have chosen to be in the hearing world full time while others have chosen not to have anything to do with the hearing world.

It seems to me that most Deaf people are happy having both.

I don't want to derail your point here.

But, I want to make a point on the flip side. I have a friend who is profoundly deaf and grew up oral only. She was taught to speak and is completely immersed in the hearing world. She wore HA's up until she was in her early 20s when she was pressured into getting a CI. She caved to the pressure and got it. It nearly killed her due to meningitis. That aside....

Here is a woman who finally learned ASL as an adult, but has to use Sim-Com because she grew up in an oral environment. She is truly caught between both worlds. To her credit, she never complains. As her friend and knowing her like I do (for 9 yrs now), I find it SAD that she has had to fight to assert her identity as a deaf person. SHE IS deaf; yet the people around her consider her deafness a nuisance. There have been people in her life who have tried to force her into being something she's not....hearing.

I admire her greatly for putting up with the crap with the grace that she does. She does the eye roll. She just lets certain people on and on, and goes on about her business.

But, really? Here's what I don't get... WHY do the hearing force this on the deaf? To me, it's unnatural (and not to mention cruel to force a child with an HA to speech read people during all their waking hrs).

I will admit that she has told me that since she has gotten her CI, it has made speech reading easier, but she still needs to speech read. She does NOT understand speech at all unless she does. She also is realiant on sound. She needs it. Incidently, she had decent residiual hearing, so there really was no NEED for her to get the CI, but, like I said... People forced it upon her.

 

[shel90]

I don't want to derail your point here.

But, I want to make a point on the flip side. I have a friend who is profoundly deaf and grew up oral only. She was taught to speak and is completely immersed in the hearing world. She wore HA's up until she was in her early 20s when she was pressured into getting a CI. She caved to the pressure and got it. It nearly killed her due to meningitis. That aside....

Here is a woman who finally learned ASL as an adult, but has to use Sim-Com because she grew up in an oral environment. She is truly caught between both worlds. To her credit, she never complains. As her friend and knowing her like I do (for 9 yrs now), I find it SAD that she has had to fight to assert her identity as a deaf person. SHE IS deaf; yet the people around her consider her deafness a nuisance. There have been people in her life who have tried to force her into being something she's not....hearing.

I admire her greatly for putting up with the crap with the grace that she does. She does the eye roll. She just lets certain people on and on, and goes on about her business.

But, really? Here's what I don't get... WHY do the hearing force this on the deaf? To me, it's unnatural (and not to mention cruel to force a child with an HA to speech read people during all their waking hrs).

I will admit that she has told me that since she has gotten her CI, it has made speech reading easier, but she still needs to speech read. She does NOT understand speech at all unless she does. She also is realiant on sound. She needs it. Incidently, she had decent residiual hearing, so there really was no NEED for her to get the CI, but, like I said... People forced it upon her.

That is something I am against. I believe in letting deaf people make the decisions for themselves and yes, I have grown up feeling like my deafness was a nuisiance to hearing people. It was always apparent when they would roll their eyes whenever I ask them what was being said around me only to say "Never mind", or "I will tell you later" instead of being gracious enough to do some accodomating on their part to keep me included.

That's one of the reasons why I am so happy to have found the Deaf community. There, I dont feel that way at all. No child should ever feel that way.

 

[GrendelQ]

She wore HA's up until she was in her early 20s when she was pressured into getting a CI.

... People forced it upon her.

I think it's illegal to force medical treatment on an adult, unless the state has legally granted a medical power of attorney to someone else for some reason.

 

[shel90]

I think it's illegal to force medical treatment on an adult, unless the state has legally granted a medical power of attorney to someone else for some reason.

I think what OB meant that she was emotionally forced into making the decision of getting implants. I have seen that happen to some of my deaf friends and some hearing parents of deaf children. I have shared the story with my deaf friend who had to pull her two deaf boys out of the oral-only program because she was being bullied and criticized for not implanting her boys.

 

[Frisky Feline]

I think what OB meant that she was emotionally forced into making the decision of getting implants. I have seen that happen to some of my deaf friends and some hearing parents of deaf children. I have shared the story with my deaf friend who had to pull her two deaf boys out of the oral-only program because she was being bullied and criticized for not implanting her boys.

Oh yes my friends' deaf childrens that they all keep telling them to get cis for their kids. Poor them that they have to deal with the kind of talks on a basis daily.

 

[shel90]

Oh yes my friends' deaf childrens that they all keep telling them to get cis for their kids. Poor them that they have to deal with the kind of talks on a basis daily.

One of my deaf friends who has a deaf son was constantly told by the hearing members of her family what a terrible mom she is for not implanting her son. She is now not on speaking terms with them or so what I was told when I last spoke with her which was over a year ago.

 

[Frisky Feline]

One of my deaf friends who has a deaf son was constantly told by the hearing members of her family what a terrible mom she is for not implanting her son. She is now not on speaking terms with them or so what I was told when I last spoke with her which was over a year ago.

Wow that's so sad that "deaf issues" keep causing more problem between hearing and deaf families. :roll:

 

[shel90]

Wow that's so sad that "deaf issues" keep causing more problem between hearing and deaf families. :roll:

Yea and there are those families where deaf people wont have anything to do with because they didnt learn ASL for them.