Should ASL be Banned from Deaf Ed programs?

[jillio]

How about if you answer the questions posed in post 279? Let's stick to the topic of deaf education, shall we?

 

[Angel]

what am i armed with? EXPERIENCE! my LIFE. my own deafness. and observations of myself, my therapist, my family and my friends (both deaf and hearing). everything I have been posting. this is all valid!
if u are insinuating that this isn't valid, i find that very offensive.

when someone shares a personal experience of theirs, and u throw facts in their faces that's contradictory, its hard to not take it personally. and that is why i (and probably quite a few others on here, not that i'm trying to speak for others) feel insulted.

Well said!!

 

[AlleyCat]

Alleycat already acknowledged her mistake and she apologized, but was it really neccessary to start flaming her for it? I think not.

Here is the problem with your logic.

The problem here is that you have let just about no one have their say without that being torn apart and nit-picked by you. Because according to you, those of us who have disagreed with you, even with our real-life experience, we are not right about anything related to deafness. Nobody's even taking the time to respond to your requests for an answer on post 279 because we all know what's going to happen anyway.

 

[jillio]

The problem here is that you have let just about no one have their say without that being torn apart and nit-picked by you. Because according to you, those of us who have disagreed with you, even with our real-life experience, is right about anything related to deafness. Nobody's even taking the time to respond to your requests for an answer on post 279 because we all know what's going to happen anyway.

Then you have misunderstood. I have discounted no one's personal experience. In fact, I have validated that experience by saying that is what is true for you. What I have disputed is that individual experience can be used to represent the majority. And that is what you are attempting to do. Use your personal experience as evidence that it is true for the majority.

 

[imdeafsowhat]

More absurdity in an attempt to deflect. Your bra size has virtually nothing to do with the fact that deaf children are being undereducated.

You're right. Nothing to do, but call it a comparsion. Since you're having hard time taking it in. Do you think that the deaf children who doesn't know ASL are being undereducated? Or those who claims that ASL is the weakest link?

Comparing your intelligence to your ability to research, it's a lot, right?

 

[Angel]

The problem here is that you have let just about no one have their say without that being torn apart and nit-picked by you. Because according to you, those of us who have disagreed with you, even with our real-life experience, we are not right about anything related to deafness. Nobody's even taking the time to respond to your requests for an answer on post 279 because we all know what's going to happen anyway.

Great minds think alike and yw =)

 

[AlleyCat]

Then you have misunderstood. I have discounted no one's personal experience. In fact, I have validated that experience by saying that is what is true for you. What I have disputed is that individual experience can be used to represent the majority. And that is what you are attempting to do. Use your personal experience as evidence that it is true for the majority.

(NOTE: My original quote in your post is now incorrect; I went back and changed it at 1:24, before this was posted.)

We have not been saying that our individual experience represents the majority. What we have been saying is that you are making so-called claims that certain ideas are not possible or do not work (such as the lip-reading milk and beer example) when in fact many of us here have invalidated your claim. You persisted in disputing it in several posts thereafter by insisting it CANNOT be lipread, and what did we tell you? Oh, yes, it can. And you still disputed it. That's just a lack of respect for OUR first-hand experience, and you are indeed discounting individual personal experience. That milk and beer example is an absolutely perfect example of doing so.

 

[Daredevel7]

Penicillin has had its failures, However, it has had far more success stories. Do we deny those that can benefit from penicillin its cure based on the evidence of what happened to the individual? I think not.

"More absurdity in an attempt to deflect." Pencillin "has virtually nothing to do with the fact that deaf children are being undereducated."

 

[jillio]

(NOTE: My original quote in your post is now incorrect; I went back and changed it at 1:24, before this was posted.)

We have not been saying that our individual experience represents the majority. What we have been saying is that you are making so-called claims that certain ideas are not possible or do not work (such as the lip-reading milk and beer example) when in fact many of us here have invalidated your claim. You persisted in disputing it in several posts thereafter by insisting it CANNOT be lipread, and what did we tell you? Oh, yes, it can. And you still disputed it. That's just a lack of respect for OUR first-hand experience, and you are indeed discounting individual personal experience. That milk and beer example is an absolutely perfect example of doing so.

And again. That is where you are misunderstanding. I am saying "this is what holds true for the majority." The majority in no way excludes those individual experiences that fall outside the majority.

However, when I have related what applies to the majority, you have tried to refute it with singular experience. That in no way negates what holds true for the majority. In order to negate what shows to hold true for the majority, you will need to present evidence that the experience of the majority has changed since the data was collected. A single experience, while valid for that individual, cannot refute the experience of a collective.

The "milk" and "beer" example shows only that there were a few individuals that did not fall into the experience of the majority. There were just as many individuals that posted regarding experience that paralled the majority. That adds validity to the majority argument. If you can speech read the difference between these two words, especially in a controlled environment, then good for you. I'm happy that you have been able to refine your speech reading skills to the degree that the skill is far, far above the average. However, it still does not hold true for the majority. You seem to think that when I refer to the majority, it translates automatically to "all". That is a misunderstanding on your part. It in now way refers to all, and that is why I say "majority" instead of "all".

 

[Jiro]

You know, until I read about it in this thread, I never realized that ASL with proper grammar was called SEE.

Is this just a way to peg people with proper grammar as not being true users of ASL?

from what I learned - SEE is mainly used as a teaching literary tool when teaching English.

 

[jillio]

"More absurdity in an attempt to deflect." Pencillin "has virtually nothing to do with the fact that deaf children are being undereducated."

It has to do with making decisions regarding what is best for the majority based on singular experience. This is what shel is referring to when she posts about a lack of critical thinking skills in the students she has had experience with coming from an oral only environment. While techinical use of language may appear, on the surface, to be excellent, the cognitive processes relating to the use of language are seriously delayed.

 

[shel90]

from what I learned - SEE is mainly used as a teaching literary tool when teaching English.

I use it along with ASL when teaching English..

 

[shel90]

This is a public board anyone can reply to your post, isn't that what you said to me too? Hypocrite.[/QUOTE]

Didnt u say that attacking others was wrong? Arent u doing the same thing?

 

[shel90]

The reason I created this thread cuz I was getting a feeling from a lot of ADers that ASL is the cause of literacy problems for Deaf children and if it should be banned and go back to the old approaches that have never showed an overall improvement in literacy skills for the majority of Deaf children.

I was successfully (academically but not socio-emotionally) orally but I can step out of the box and see that it doesnt work for a large number of deaf children so I want to use the approach that gives EACH and EVERY deaf child a fair advantage to education/literacy/socia-emotional/ and much more.

By using an individual approach, we would have to hire one teacher for every deaf child and we know that is not relistic. We know that ASL is 100% accessible to deaf children and we know that English is a must so presto! The BiBi approach!

Then add individual approaches such as oral skills development and cued speech if the child could benefit more from these.

If that goes against many of your beliefs or principles, fine.

 

[Cheri]

Then tell me, please, why haven't we seen an increase in the literacy rates and overall academic functioning rates of deaf students as a whole under the auspices of these methods. If they are so successful, why are so many functioning at such a reduced level?

Some deaf children have been successful using these methods; Every approach has it's pro, con, advantage and disadvantage. There is no method can guarantee the success for every individual. Those programs been around for a long time, longer than bi bi, and I believe bi bi will have it's pro, con, advantage, and disadvantage in the future if not already.

 

[shel90]

Some deaf children have been successful using these methods; Every approach has it's pro, con, advantage and disadvantage. There is no method can guarantee the success for every individual. Those programs been around for a long time, longer than bi bi, and I believe bi bi will have it's pro, con, advantage, and disadvantage in the future if not already.

Oh really? So u are saying that ASL cant guarantee the success for every individual?

That is like saying spoken English cant guarantee the success for every hearing individaul. *shrug*

And when we find one approach that wasnt successful for the child, u know what happens? The child ends up with language delays. Curious, do u find that acceptable?

 

[Cheri]

Didnt u say that attacking others was wrong? Arent u doing the same thing?

How is that attacking a member? I don't have to listen to this, If you want to debate then debate if you are just here to start a war, I'm not interested. :roll:

 

[Byrdie714]

Then tell me, please, why haven't we seen an increase in the literacy rates and overall academic functioning rates of deaf students as a whole under the auspices of these methods. If they are so successful, why are so many functioning at such a reduced level?

Well.......

You been busy!

Before I go furthur with some answer, I need to know if this pertains to mainstread students or deaf residential students, home-schooled or in just in general terms?

 

[shel90]

How is that attacking a member? I don't have to listen to this, If you want to debate then debate if you are just here to start a war, I'm not interested. :roll:

Oh, I see now. Interesting.

Never mind then. Moving on..

 

[shel90]

Well.......

You been busy!

Before I go furthur with some answer, I need to know if this pertains to mainstread students or deaf residential students, home-schooled or in just in general terms?

general...