Recent statements by Catholic church about bible

[apathrev]

We are under GRACE right now -- NO LONGER the LAW (OT). Give them their LAST chance for the REPENTANCE.

So you're implying that we are no longer bound by law or expected to uphold it? Not according to Matthew

Matthew 5:17-18
Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.

 

[apathrev]

AntiChrist
Revelation 13:11-18

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

Did you know that all the armies/troops/soliders already have their devices under their skin ? First pets, and then, armies. It's startin' on people now. There's one place in Spain that has the mark already for people there. Don't let it surprise you if, you start to realize that the bible is tellin' the truth. There's also a movie called "The Manchurian Candidate" -- it will give you some ideas. You can find it at the video store.

But according to the most popular conservative interpretation of the rapture, this is not required to happen until after the rapture, correct?

And in recent archeological finding, it early manuscripts were found that actually translate the beast' number to 616. If this is true, then how can we not believe that other parts of Revelations, or even the whole Bible, have been mistranslated. The authors of the Bible may have been divinely inspired, but what about the scholars who have retranslated it throughout all these generations?

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11134

 

[RedFox]

So you're implying that we are no longer bound by law or expected to uphold it? Not according to Matthew

If all of the bible laws, including the law about killing gay people are still in force, why aren't the gay people I know being killed by Christians? What about thou shall not kill?

 

[apathrev]

part 1

Cental34: To be able to challenge something does not equal 'the thing challenged is incorrect.' I know of people personally who can argue that the holocaust never happened in Europe under Hitler (with lots of 'evidence') but their rationalizations and viewpoints do not overcome the truth that it did happen. (the truth established by eyewitnesses, documents, photos, film, locations, etc.) I daresay that a good lawyer could convince a normal jury that just about anything you assert is shaky at best (in terms of provability).

I realize that because something is challenged it does not entitle it to be wrong. I am simply beginning to question because I myself find it hard to believe. No matter how much I read of pray, I am still in doubt.

Not that my education or credentials make me more of an authority than any of your friends, but I do read koine greek (the language of the New Testament). I have studied the formation of both the old and new testament. Conspiracy theories always run ahead of evidence and truth, and unfortunately are rarely exposed for the sensational-yet-unsubstantial fads that they are. The current (but already debunked) fad is the claims of Dan Brown in The DaVinci Code (which proposes alot of the same things you mention in your post). Do a quick online search about 'errors davinci code', there are already 12 books on the market refuting the rehashed arguments in his book.

This I can't refute. I would like to know, how easily are these original manuscripts or copies of these manuscripts accessed?

Most of the challenges against the legitimacy of the new testament documents arise from a non-historically-accurate view of the council of Nicea. Many have been erroneously led to believe that the books of the New Testament were somehow 'voted' upon then, or worse yet, that Constantine himself 'hand-picked' the contents of the New Testament. Nothing even close to that occured. The issue at Nicea was the truth concerning the deity of Christ: Was He God, or was He created by God? That issue WAS voted upon (with over 300 of the delegates saying He is God, and only 3 saying that Jesus wasnt God, later only 1).

It wasn't the council of Nicea that I remember were gathered to compile the books, but another one. I can't remember which. One of my friends posted a challenge of the biblical books subject and author:

I could find more sacred texts that fit the rules of canonization. Even some that are in the koran or written by the desert fathers of the orthodox church circa 150-200 AD. Isn't it interesting as well that the apocrypha were in the KJV until the puritans took them out? Strange.

Its also strange that after five councils, the disputed books were still put in the bible. Some of them even quoting and refering to apocryphal works.


A. Philemon - The early Church Fathers argued that Philemon was simply a letter addressed to an individual concerning a very secular, non-religious subject. It had nothing to do with the person and work of Christ, the nature of the Gospel and the edification of the church.


B. Hebrews - In that Hebrews is anonymous, it could not be proved that it was written by an apostle or a close associate of an apostle.


C. The Epistles of John - Also anonymous, very brief, of unknown destination, and had limited circulation in the church.


D. II Peter - Its author appears to have borrowed much material from the Epistle of Jude.


E. Jude - This work frequently quoted from apocryphal works, particularly the Books of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses.


F. Revelation - It was the most disputed work of all the New Testament, because by A.D. 400 few understood its message, The apocalyptic imagery of Revelation proved to be confusing to the saints but also served as fertile ground for the Christian gnostic heretics.

But the question may arise, but just how ACCURATE is what we have today compared to the ORIGINAL writings of the New Testament? Have the writings been corrupted, changed, or translated wrong? To answer, let me borrow a quote:

"This is a common misconception. Some people think that the Bible was written in one language, translated to another language, then translated into yet another and so on until it was finally translated into the English. The complaint is that since it was rewritten so many times in different languages throughout history, it must have become corrupted ...The fact is that the Bible has not been rewritten. Take the New Testament, for example. The disciples of Jesus wrote the New Testament in Greek and though we do not have the original documents, we do have around 6,000 copies of the Greek manuscripts that were made very close to the time of the originals. These various manuscripts, or copies, agree with each other to almost 100 percent accuracy. Statistically, the New Testament is 99.5% textually pure. That means that there is only 1/2 of 1% of of all the copies that do not agree with each other perfectly. But, if you take that 1/2 of 1% and examine it, you find that the majority of the "problems" are nothing more than spelling errors and very minor word alterations. For example, instead of saying Jesus, a variation might be "Jesus Christ." So the actual amount of textual variation of any concern is extremely low. Therefore, we can say that we have a remarkably accurate compilation of the original documents.
So when that we translate the Bible, we do not translate from a translation of a translation of a translation. We translate from the original language into our language. It is a one step process and not a series of steps that can lead to corruption. It is one translation step from the original to the English or to whatever language a person needs to read it in. " (http://www.carm.org/questions/rewritten.htm)

To even further remove the possibility of improper translation, I learned koine (new testament) greek in college in the late 80s. I wanted to check my english translations to see if they were faithful. I personally have found that the NEW King James english translation is fairly faithful to the greek, others may be as well.

I'm glad to see you're validation came out good. This is actually comforting to me to see that translations are true to the original.

 

[apathrev]

part 2

All of this amazing evidence aside, there is still the overwhelming conclusion of logic, which states that if there is a God who created us, and Who desires to communicate with us, then that God is powerful enough to ensure that what we have is His message recorded and preserved faithfully. Is there a book in the world that (1) claims to be the Word of God (2) contains internal, verifiable evidence that it is of divine origin (3) Has stood the test of time through overcoming challenges to its veracity and historicity (4) Speaks to the greatest need of mankind...i.e. establishing a personal and real relationship with the creator. ?

I agree. If I remember correctly, the Torah is actually just the first 5 books of the Old Testament, and the Quaran is a collection of poems and writings inspired by the spirits of ancestors. This is only what I've learned from school, so I don't know how much I trust it.

The answer is yes, the Bible. As far as verifiability of divine influence in its composition, the Bible is the only 'sacred' text in the world that a full 1/3 of what was written was PROPHETIC in nature. In other words, 1 out of every 3 verses in the Bible speak about events YET FUTURE when those verses were penned. Not vague 'pie-in-the-sky-at-the-end-of-the-world' statements, but specific prophecies, written hundreds and even thousands of years BEFORE the events that they detailed. Many hundreds have already been literally fulfilled in verifiable history. Specific events, people, places. If the Bible were only the product of man, (1) it would not be possible to have 100% accuracy about future events (2) it would have already been proven false by an inaccurate prophecy. If mortal man could accurately foretell the future, we would have a lot more billionaires in the stock market, no doubt.

I'm still not quite sure how I feel concerning prophetic statements made by the Bible, even as verifiable as they are. I'm sure one will say the same thing when it comes to Notradaumus.

Here's just one contemporary example: the nation of Israel. No country in human history which was wiped off the face of the earth and it's people scattered to the four quadrants of the globe, and then miraculously reappears as an autonomous nation 2000 years later, with ethnicity, language, culture, and faith all still 100% intact. The Bible said that the Lord would regather the Jews to their land in the last days(after dispersing them for a long period), just before the Messiah comes back. May 1948 saw that come to pass.

Here's where I start to disagree. I also have a hard time accepting the modern day nation-state of Israel as the same referred to in the Bible. As Reba has mentioned, the borders are only twice the size as the land in biblical times. Also you refer to faith being 100% in tact. Here is a statement made by an Agnostic friend of mine that started provoking my thought. He has a lot more to say concerning the subject. I'm not accepting this as absolute truth, but he is a very well studied person when it comes to such subjects:

A little off the subject, but I think the way that many Christians blindly support Israel is an example of how a lot of Christians are out of touch with Jews and Judaism. Many automatically assume that the "Israel" in the Bible is the same thing as the modern secular nation-state of Israel, and most of them don't realize that 75% of Israelis identify themselves as "secular Jews," "agnostics," or "atheists." Not exactly the kinds of people who would be stoked on rebuilding some temple so some radical ultra-orthodox settlers could start sacrificing animals again and some Western Christians could see if their ideas about the apocalypse are true.

There are those who question many things. But God is not afraid of our questions, He is much greater than all of our conflicting perplexities. He created us with an inquisitive and rational mind. The danger is when we reject the truth because it makes us uncomfortable or because we are intimidated by what others will think of us if we acknowledge the truth.

We may not understand all things, but that does not stand in the way of accepting something. No one on this planet understands the true physics of gravity, yet we accept it. No one understands WHY or HOW it works, but we accept it because of the verifiability of the premise of GRAVITY. This analogy could be enlarged to include many dozens of readily accepted concepts in the physical sciences. We can accept without always understanding.

It is not faith IN SPITE of the evidence, it is faith BECAUSE OF the evidence. God is NOT asking for blind faith, He is asking for intelligent faith based upon the assurances of His trustworthiness. That can be easily established.

Do we doubt His love for us??? Just pause and think about the CROSS...all doubt will vanish.

Romans 5:8 "But God PROVES His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

It is not my faith in God that is being shaken, but my faith in the Bible as being completely divinely inspired. I mean sure, parts of it, yes I do believe in. But I'm just now sure anymore like I used to. I have no doubt there is a God, from all my experiences and all my knowledge, I have every reason to believe there is a Creator.

 

[jazzy]

Ok people can born with high femminst but they don't have to be gay anyway. It dones't means when you have high femminst in your body and you must be gay because of it.

I knew some gay men who are macho and gay women are feminist. I guess you see them differently and assume u see them gay men are feminist and gay women are masculine? They are born this way and they can not help it. And your trying to change them just alike hearing trying to change deaf people.

 

[jazzy]

I agree with you. RC is also a cult.

So are every Christian religion a cult.

 

[deafdyke]

If this is true, then how can we not believe that other parts of Revelations, or even the whole Bible, have been mistranslated. The authors of the Bible may have been divinely inspired, but what about the scholars who have retranslated it throughout all these generations?

Good link a little further on, but again there's still a lot of debate out there among Bible scholars as to exact translations of terms and words. There's also the fact that a word's meaning isn't universal. Like for example corn in American English means a type of vegetable. Corn in British English means wheat. Even in the same country meanings of words can vary.......jimmes in New England are sprinkles for ice cream. Jimmies in Michagan mean condoms....

 

[Crazymanw00t]

I knew some gay men who are macho and gay women are feminist. I guess you see them differently and assume u see them gay men are feminist and gay women are masculine? They are born this way and they can not help it. And your trying to change them just alike hearing trying to change deaf people.

That is not my point to change them. My point is that they were born like that way but the society labeled them as gay people because of their high feminist or masculine. Therefore they were raised with gay because of the outside society told them. My main point of whole thing is to change their thinking that they were told to be gay. I encourage them to change as a straight person but happens to have high feminist or masculine. No one is born to be gay, period.

 

[deafdyke]

OK thanks Reba......just clarifying about that. I know that the King James only debate is rather active in your area of belief. However, I believe that all the churches out there have a different interpretion as to the meaning of that verse, and what it means to be born again. I don't think very many deonominations (besides the traditional ones) translate that as to being "born again Christian" born again. ....Too bad I'm not at school.....could ask a couple of people about that. BTW, thanks for being so civil in this debate.

TULIP is based on GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING WITH GOOD AND BAD and that is TULIP's core

I don't think I understand what you're saying.......EVERY SINGLE church/deonomination/whatever has thought that it is following the Bible the way that God meant for it to be interpreted. What makes TULIP more legitmite then the teachings of Luther, the teachings of David Duke (who BTW probaly started the modren day Christian Idenity beliefs), the teachings of Koresh and so on?

 

[Maria]

But according to the most popular conservative interpretation of the rapture, this is not required to happen until after the rapture, correct?

And in recent archeological finding, it early manuscripts were found that actually translate the beast' number to 616. If this is true, then how can we not believe that other parts of Revelations, or even the whole Bible, have been mistranslated. The authors of the Bible may have been divinely inspired, but what about the scholars who have retranslated it throughout all these generations?

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11134

I believe that "666" is a computer-related. The octal number 666 is widely used in settin' up authorizations in the Unix Operatin' System. About the mark under the skin or on the forehead, the device has its bar code and it will read under 666. The 666 is a cashless society where the people don't need to carry their wallets or cash or credit cards. The people don't realize that they are sellin' their souls to the Devil ( Satan ) after receivin' the mark. That's like when you see a cashier scoop any food can or let's say a bread on the square glass where you could see the red light inside - it reads the bar code and it will tell the price. After you buy it, it is all sold. Same idea with their souls AFTER they receive the mark of 666. Scary scenario huh ?

And, even the survelliance cameras will be everywhere especially on the highway and, they are computer, too. No man will hide from it. People are bein' watched. No privacy.

I have more to say here - but, I will wait for the right moment...dependin' on what ADers bring their issue up. Depends on what topic they would like to discuss/debate. ( It will not happen until after the rapture. )

 

[Ktisis]

cental34:

There is much confusion and hand-wringing over the 'disputed' books. If we were receiving a majority of our doctrine, or accepting 'unique' teachings that are found ONLY in those books, then I could see some concern justified.

I would offer that there is not a single major Christian doctrine that would be lost if those 'disputed' books were not in our modern Bible. The essential teachings of the deity of Christ, His sin-atoning death in our place on the cross, His resurrection, the FREE gift of eternal life through repentance & faith, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, the 2nd coming, the eternal condemnation of all those who reject salvation through Christ...all of the fundamentals of the faith would remain intact, unscathed, if those 'disputed' books were not included.

I am not saying that I believe that they are to be rejected. My point is that they do not contain unique fundamentals of the faith...the fundamental teachings of the Word of God are found throughout God's word.

You shared: I'm still not quite sure how I feel concerning prophetic statements made by the Bible, even as verifiable as they are. I'm sure one will say the same thing when it comes to Notradaumus.

As one who has studied concerning Nostradamus, we are talking about apples and oranges in comparing them. They are not in the same class. Nostradamus spoke (wrote) in quatrains of illustrative poetry, with few CONCRETE and verifiable details. The scripture contains very detailed and highly specific prophecies about future events, and God says that He does that to VERIFY that the writings are His word, for no man knows the future. Exact people, exact places, exact events...in black and white ready for verification from history or the future.

You shared:Here's where I start to disagree. I also have a hard time accepting the modern day nation-state of Israel as the same referred to in the Bible. As Reba has mentioned, the borders are only twice the size as the land in biblical times. Also you refer to faith being 100% in tact. Here is a statement made by an Agnostic friend of mine that started provoking my thought. He has a lot more to say concerning the subject. I'm not accepting this as absolute truth, but he is a very well studied person when it comes to such subjects:

A little off the subject, but I think the way that many Christians blindly support Israel is an example of how a lot of Christians are out of touch with Jews and Judaism. Many automatically assume that the "Israel" in the Bible is the same thing as the modern secular nation-state of Israel, and most of them don't realize that 75% of Israelis identify themselves as "secular Jews," "agnostics," or "atheists." Not exactly the kinds of people who would be stoked on rebuilding some temple so some radical ultra-orthodox settlers could start sacrificing animals again and some Western Christians could see if their ideas about the apocalypse are true.

The point that he/she makes actually REINFORCES the truth of God's word. God says that He will regather them in unbelief, and that it will take the terrible trial of the Tribulation period to wake up a 'remnant' of them to repent and return to Him. Look at Israel even in the days leading up to the diaspora and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad. Jesus said that very few of the Jews were living in faith and serving God. He compared Israel to a fig tree and said (paraphrasing) "I have come these 3 years seeking fruit, and it isnt here!" Nationally, the Jews were in disbelief, but there were a few, a remnant whose hearts were turned to the Lord.

Read the prophets of the Old Testament and listen to them cry out to Israel to repent and believe the Lord...most of the time they did not and the judgment of God came. I am surprised that even 25% claim to be believers today, but the statement that I made concerning 'their faith is intact' is that those who follow Judaism have a faith and practice remarkably unaltered in their 2000 year dispersion (minus the temple of course). There is a growing movement in Israel to rebuild the temple, and one will be built according to both old and new testament prophets. It will be the temple that the Antichrist will defile, and the temple that Jesus will come to at His 2nd coming.

The major point is, God says that the Messiah will return a 2nd time to the earth, and that when He does, it will be to a nation of ISRAEL, where there will be Jews who are being persecuted by the Antichrist, and He will rescue them. It will not be a religious theocracy, but a SECULAR Israel that Jesus will return to, for His word says that when He comes He will 'rebuild the fallen House of David (paraphrase)' and restore the theocracy to Israel.

When referring to the size of the modern state of Israel, the criticism that the land they occupy is far too small, this AGAIN is confirmation of the word of God, for He said that the land will be 'trampled by the gentiles, until the times of the gentiles will be fulfilled.' That time will end at the 2nd coming. I expect Israel to only have a small portion of what is rightfully theirs until Jesus returns.

Issues like the mark of the beast, and the rapture, are all very interesting to discuss...but at the end of the day, they do not impact the greater issues - such as the free gift of eternal life that Jesus paid for on the cross. Let's spend our time encouraging those who have not experienced the 'new birth' that Jesus offers...let's tell the world that the God who made them loves them so much that He was willing to come to the earth and die on a cross for them. Salvation is free to us because it cost Him everything.

Now THAT is something worth talking about!

Amen

 

[deafdyke]

My point is that they were born like that way but the society labeled them as gay people because of their high feminist or masculine. Therefore they were raised with gay because of the outside society told them. My main point of whole thing is to change their thinking that they were told to be gay. I encourage them to change as a straight person but happens to have high feminist or masculine. No one is born to be gay, period.

You believe that people became gay b/c they don't fit into gender roles?
Gender roles are DEFINED BY SOCIETY.....they aren't defined by God.
I mean I am VERY tomboyish......but that didn't lead me to like girls.
If it was about gender roles......there wouldn't be femmes in the lesbian world, or butch leatherguys in the gay male world. Sure a same sex relationship scares people simply b/c it upsets the way our society defines gender roles.....but most GLB relationships aren't about gender......

 

[Banjo]

I believe that "666" is a computer-related. The octal number 666 is widely used in settin' up authorizations in the Unix Operatin' System. About the mark under the skin or on the forehead, the device has its bar code and it will read under 666. The 666 is a cashless society where the people don't need to carry their wallets or cash or credit cards. The people don't realize that they are sellin' their souls to the Devil ( Satan ) after receivin' the mark. That's like when you see a cashier scoop any food can or let's say a bread on the square glass where you could see the red light inside - it reads the bar code and it will tell the price. After you buy it, it is all sold. Same idea with their souls AFTER they receive the mark of 666. Scary scenario huh ?

And, even the survelliance cameras will be everywhere especially on the highway and, they are computer, too. No man will hide from it. People are bein' watched. No privacy.

I have more to say here - but, I will wait for the right moment...dependin' on what ADers bring their issue up. Depends on what topic they would like to discuss/debate. ( It will not happen until after the rapture. )

Paranoia at its best.

 

[Maria]

Paranoia at its best.

Yep, that's another word.

 

[jazzy]

That is not my point to change them. My point is that they were born like that way but the society labeled them as gay people because of their high feminist or masculine. Therefore they were raised with gay because of the outside society told them. My main point of whole thing is to change their thinking that they were told to be gay. I encourage them to change as a straight person but happens to have high feminist or masculine. No one is born to be gay, period.

That is your own belief. I see it different way cuz I have a sister who is high feminist than me and she is gay. I am not gay and I used to be a tomboy, ( used to hate boys because they were harrassed me). No one told my sister she was a gay. I unds where she is and know she cant help it. U are not in their shoes so u dont know and should not discrimantion against them period.

 

[deafdyke]

Society didn't tell me to be gay.....I didn't even KNOW i liked girls until I randomly fell in love with my best friend from summer camp.....and trust me....that wasn't a choice. Society is NOT pro-gay. Society is VERY anti-gay! I mean it's changing, which is a GOOD thing, but people are still incredibily homophobic.
My being a tomboy has nothing to do with the fact I like girls.....I simply have fallen in love with souls who happen to possess female bodies!
If they had been born male, I would have loved them JUST as much!

 

[deafdyke]

Oh, and GO CENTRAL!!!!!

 

[Daft]

CyberRed,

You said, "I believe that "666" is a computer-related."

Scripture tells us otherwise. It says it is the name of a man.

Rev 13:18 "Wisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number that stands for a person. His number is six hundred and sixty-six."