Pre-natal testing for desirable babies

traciedantoni said:
You think I CHOSE to have my son be born only so he could die 3 years later????? Highly offensive.

I didn't know there was anything wrong with my son until the day before he was born and he was born 7 weeks early. I was 24 years old and they did offer me prenatal testing but I had NO reason to think there could be anything wrong because I already had a healthy pregnancy and I was a healthy person. If I had done the prenatal testing there is still no evidence that it would have revealed that my son had problems. When he was born I was told so many things by the doctors. I worked hard and trained every day to be able to bring him home on a ventilator, oxygen, feeding tube, etc. It didn't work out and he died two weeks before his third birthday on October 19th 2010.

You think I regret his life? No I don't. He taught me more than anyone else in this world has ever taught me. He taught me to love harder and live life better. He taught me to appreciate life and those around me.

You think I tortured him by bringing him into this world? No I didn't. I didn't know he was going to have problems just like hearing parents with deaf kids don't know until their babies are born that they are deaf. You deal with what you get and you LOVE your child no matter what.
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Given that we know that prenatal testing can sometimes diagnose fetal illnesses, how can you possibly think it isn't your responsibility that you chose not to get testing that very well could have shed light on problems despite doctors and society saying it should be done? It was your choice.

A child is not a lesson for you, or a life experience. A child is a PERSON. And yes, death is suffering for that person, not an experience for you to learn how to be strong.

I'm sorry about what you went through, but I don't think it can ever be right not to accept prenatal testing when you have access to it.
 
AlleyCat said:
The bolded -- that is exactly what I was trying to say. I may not have conveyed that well at all. You bring up good points (in your #1-3), but, for the norm, the typical child eats normally, the typical child wears clothes, the typical child is in school. Your examples are more out of the norm. But not necessarily "playing god".
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Again, I still ask, why does this one aspect fall under the heading of "playing god" while the others don't? If you claim it's an irreversible fact, then you both ignore the fact that, say, the food you raise your child on is irreversible (you can't go back in time and un-feed your child what you fed them, even if you later find out that all that sugar led to them later in life developing diabetes) and the like. Genetics aren't magic - my dad has a strong familial history of cancer, and both of his parents died of cancer. Does this mean he's going to get cancer? Maybe. Maybe not, because he chose lifestyle choices, such as eliminating all meat except for fish from his diet, and exercising daily, which likewise reduce his risk of cancer.
 
Beach girl said:
Sure, of course. You sure about that "most" being with the parents' own sperm and eggs?

Even if it is "most," genetic selection is still involved, because once sperm and eggs have united, only the *best* examples are then implanted. Which makes sense, of course, if that's the method you're going to use, but it's not the same as letting nature take its course and loving what you get.

And of course often donor sperm or donor eggs ARE involved.

I'm lumping all of these things together under the general heading of "genetic manipulation," because they all involve methods above and beyond just letting nature do its thing.
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I dont have enough working knowledge about in-vitro fertilization to make an informed opinion.

My friend got pregnant by a male donor and if she is comfortable with that, I see nothing wrong with it as it doesnt affect me personally. The point is that she wants the baby and she is ready for it as opposed to a woman who doesnt want the baby.
 
Aleser said:
Given that we know that prenatal testing can sometimes diagnose fetal illnesses, how can you possibly think it isn't your responsibility that you chose not to get testing that very well could have shed light on problems despite doctors and society saying it should be done? It was your choice.

A child is not a lesson for you, or a life experience. A child is a PERSON. And yes, death is suffering for that person, not an experience for you to learn how to be strong.

I'm sorry about what you went through, but I don't think it can ever be right not to accept prenatal testing when you have access to it.
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I had my sonogram at 20 weeks which is supposed to reveal any problems if there are any. Nothing showed up wrong. Everything looked great and my baby looked great.

And if you think children don't teach us lessons then you clearly don't have any or you don't get what it is to be a parent.

EVERY experience we go through is meant to be learned from and to make us grow stonger. Yes death is suffering but it is also a part of life. We are all going to die. If nothing is gained from that then it is in vain. Don't tell me I am wrong for choosing to get something positive out of my son's existence. I would be dead if I didn't do that because I would've fallen in a deep depression and probably killed myself. Losing a child is a nightmare that nobody should have to go through so DON'T YOU DARE try and talk to me about that.
 
I made a video for my son when he was still alive. It represents the core of this thread. It's about loving your child no matter what. I challenge you to check it out and tell me it doesn't strike a nerve.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXzgNe7XYZA&playnext=1&list=PL64792096C2C59196]YouTube - ‪"For you I will" ASL song - dedicated to my son - CODA‬‏[/ame]
 
StSapphire said:
The view held by modern biology is that both genetics and the environment you've developed and grown in both very strongly affect nearly every aspect of you.

If you're referring to any specific studies, feel free to share, though.
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She might be referring to various studies of twins who were separated at birth. Even though they have totally different upbringings in different environments, they somehow have the same likes and dislikes, hobbies, quirks, and tendencies.

Identical twins who were separated at birth: Amazing similarities « NEVER SAY ALWAYS
 
Of course, our children can teach us parents a lot of things about life's lessons. We learn from them in more ways than one than none at all.
 
shel90 said:
I dont think Alsear will be able to see this because if I remember correctly, she is deafblind.
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Deafblind, eh? Should her parents have chosen not to have her then because of prenatal testing? Maybe her parents were wrong for letting her be born then according to her own comments.

That's exactly my point. As a parent you have your baby and accept what you get when your baby is born. Geez. It is unbelievable to me that some people support picking and choosing which kind of baby you get.

Whatever happened to loving your child regardless of what kind of child you get? Why do people have to choose what kind of child they get by getting science involved? Can't it just be left at picking the partner you have sex with to determine the kind of child you end up with?

My boyfriend has blue eyes and blond hair. I have brown eyes and brown hair. I am pregnant and have no idea if my baby will have blue eyes or brown. Blond hair or brown. It doesn't matter because she will be beautiful. If she is born deaf it won't matter because I will love her and teach her how to sign and face the world just as any loving parent would.
 
I hope that my kids have screening available for my family's genetic disorder. Because of medical issues not because of hearing loss. Of course, I will support my kids no matter what decision they make about available genetic testing.
 
I research find gene, I am interesting I am learn it!
 
It is interesting. Do you know your family's medical history? That would narrow the inheritance down to either dominant, recessive or X-linked inheritance. X-linked can be either dominant (cannot be passed from male to male) or recessive. My family is autosomal dominant or X-linked dominant.
 
traciedantoni said:
Deafblind, eh? Should her parents have chosen not to have her then because of prenatal testing? Maybe her parents were wrong for letting her be born then according to her own comments.

That's exactly my point. As a parent you have your baby and accept what you get when your baby is born. Geez. It is unbelievable to me that some people support picking and choosing which kind of baby you get.

Whatever happened to loving your child regardless of what kind of child you get? Why do people have to choose what kind of child they get by getting science involved? Can't it just be left at picking the partner you have sex with to determine the kind of child you end up with?

My boyfriend has blue eyes and blond hair. I have brown eyes and brown hair. I am pregnant and have no idea if my baby will have blue eyes or brown. Blond hair or brown. It doesn't matter because she will be beautiful. If she is born deaf it won't matter because I will love her and teach her how to sign and face the world just as any loving parent would.
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There was a 75% chance that the pregnancy which resulted in me would have resulted in a healthy child (though my parents didn't know that at the time). I could have received different care in my childhood and probably would not have become deaf under a different set of circumstances. I could have been raised differently... so MANY things could have happened not to make me, me.

The whole "what if YOU were aborted" argument is flawed to the core: if I were aborted I would not exist. If a long series of events hadn't happened, from my parents meeting right up until I finished college and 150395 things in between, I would not exist.

To mourn the billions of different people who could have been born of my mother's pregnancy which resulted in me is ridiculous: I happened. Not just because of the pregnancy, but because of my entire life, I happened.

I'm all for loving your child no matter who they are or what their disability or illness is. But I think it is a compassionate and loving act to KNOW about their illness as early as you can, to be prepared if it as all possible, and that sometimes the most loving and compassionate thing you can possibly do for your child is realize that they will never be one of the billions of potential viable children that could have come of that pregnancy, either via PGD or prenatal dx.

I absolutely believe that abortion (or PGD and egg disposal) can be a loving act of parenting. That is where we disagree, of course, but I just want to make it clear that I do not in any way believe that certain children should not be loved or cared for or appreciated... in fact, I think they should be cared for so much that parents should be willing to suffer their loss to spare them pain.
 
traciedantoni said:
Deafblind, eh? Should her parents have chosen not to have her then because of prenatal testing? Maybe her parents were wrong for letting her be born then according to her own comments.
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You say this sarcastically, but I had a friend who actually did feel this way because she was born with epilepsy. It was also the plot of an episode of an anime as well as spawning a song from that same show. (Beauty is Within Us)

I doubt, but am not certain, that that is the case here, but it's not the non-existent opinion you seem to be implying.

traciedantoni said:
That's exactly my point. As a parent you have your baby and accept what you get when your baby is born. Geez. It is unbelievable to me that some people support picking and choosing which kind of baby you get.

Whatever happened to loving your child regardless of what kind of child you get? Why do people have to choose what kind of child they get by getting science involved? Can't it just be left at picking the partner you have sex with to determine the kind of child you end up with?
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Why even exert that much control? Just let nature take its course and sleep with as many men as you can, so that you don't even know who the father is. Then you can really let nature take its course!

Nobody's advocating in favor of killing off your child once you find out that there's anything whatsoever that you consider in any degree "less than ideal", they're talking about genetic testing before there even is a child.

traciedantoni said:
My boyfriend has blue eyes and blond hair. I have brown eyes and brown hair. I am pregnant and have no idea if my baby will have blue eyes or brown. Blond hair or brown. It doesn't matter because she will be beautiful. If she is born deaf it won't matter because I will love her and teach her how to sign and face the world just as any loving parent would.
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That's good. And also, not contradictory to what I support.
 
For the record, I never made ANY comment regarding abortion. My views on that are personal to me. My comments have all be directed to picking and choosing embryos to create a certain type of child AND prenatal testing to determine whether or not to continue with a pregnancy based on the results of the test.

Also, for the record, if I would have agreed to prenatal testing during my pregnancy with my son and it was revealed that he was going to suffer the way he did, I WOULD HAVE terminated the pregnancy. I never would want anyone to go through what my son had to suffer in his 3 short years on this earth, he didn't deserve that. After his birth Johns Hopkins did EVERY test under the sun to determine what was wrong with him and all tests revealed NOTHING. Genetics was one of the first avenues they tried to explore and there was nothing genetically wrong with him. What went wrong is a mystery to this day.
 
StSapphire said:
Why even exert that much control? Just let nature take its course and sleep with as many men as you can, so that you don't even know who the father is. Then you can really let nature take its course!
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Really? I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous comment.
 
traciedantoni said:
For the record, I never made ANY comment regarding abortion. My views on that are personal to me. My comments have all be directed to picking and choosing embryos to create a certain type of child AND prenatal testing to determine whether or not to continue with a pregnancy based on the results of the test.
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I'm not sure if that was directed to me or not. If it was, my point about "killing off your child" wasn't a quip with regards to abortion - see the other contentious topic going on right now for my views there. When I said "killing off your child" I was talking about actually killing a living child, not an embryo or fetus. Which is a thing I am not advocating.

traciedantoni said:
Also, for the record, if I would have agreed to prenatal testing during my pregnancy with my son and it was revealed that he was going to suffer the way he did, I WOULD HAVE terminated the pregnancy. I never would want anyone to go through what my son had to suffer in his 3 short years on this earth, he didn't deserve that. After his birth Johns Hopkins did EVERY test under the sun to determine what was wrong with him and all tests revealed NOTHING. Genetics was one of the first avenues they tried to explore and there was nothing genetically wrong with him. What went wrong is a mystery to this day.
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So, wait, what? You do support prenatal testing and allowing for selection once the zygote has been created/implanted, you just don't support selection of specific traits? I thought you were saying the exact opposite, that you wouldn't have supported any form of prenatal testing or selection.
 
StSapphire said:
Just let nature take its course and sleep with as many men as you can, so that you don't even know who the father is. Then you can really let nature take its course!
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:eek3:

Nice. Really nice.

Not. Way to participate constructively.
 
traciedantoni said:
For the record, I never made ANY comment regarding abortion. My views on that are personal to me. My comments have all be directed to picking and choosing embryos to create a certain type of child AND prenatal testing to determine whether or not to continue with a pregnancy based on the results of the test.

Also, for the record, if I would have agreed to prenatal testing during my pregnancy with my son and it was revealed that he was going to suffer the way he did, I WOULD HAVE terminated the pregnancy. I never would want anyone to go through what my son had to suffer in his 3 short years on this earth, he didn't deserve that. After his birth Johns Hopkins did EVERY test under the sun to determine what was wrong with him and all tests revealed NOTHING. Genetics was one of the first avenues they tried to explore and there was nothing genetically wrong with him. What went wrong is a mystery to this day.
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But PGD (picking healthy fertilized eggs, and only implanting them) and prenatal diagnosis DO give many parents answers, DO show many parents that their child would be the one to suffer. If you accept that terminating the pregnancy would have been a valid choice, why do you see it as meddling with nature to actually diagnose the abnormality? How can it be wrong to only want one of the billions of potential children that you can live with yourself for bringing into the world, to come to be?

Yes, not all can be caught, and that's awful. But many can.
 
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