Payroll tax delema

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True. Payroll tax cut takes money away from SS and Medicare.
 
TXgolfer said:
Scary isn't it. Where are the going to come up with the cash to pay those bonds???
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Start drilling for our own oil and gas to the point of total energy independency, and get into the oil exporting business.
 
Start changing the infrastructure for fusion energy. *shrugs*
 
DeafCaroline said:
Strange, the Republicans gave in today to the 2 month extension.
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Not that strange considering the blowback they were getting from the left the right the center .... Threaten Boehner's election chances and all principals go overboard in that fine GPO tradition. In this case - I'm glad.
 
pcryan said:
Not that strange considering the blowback they were getting from the left the right the center .... Threaten Boehner's election chances and all principals go overboard in that fine GPO tradition. In this case - I'm glad.
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I was responding to Reba's link to the vote, I didn't mean the two month extension itself was strange.
 
The really sad thing is that the House had it approved for a year and now this! Wow, two months. That's $160 for the upper tax range or it could have been $1040 for the year! You tell me which makes more sense?! The Republicans are trying to add jobs to the bill and stimulate the econonmy through the pipeline addition. I just don't understand government! A bunch or corrupt liars and thieves on both sides.
 
Too bad they had an oil pipeline attached to the bill. The Keystone Kops weep with envy.
 
Speaking of liars, you might be interested in reading this: Lies, Damn Lies and the Big Whoppers of 2011: Jonathan Alter - Bloomberg

The reason for the delay on the pipeline deal is because of all the pipeline leak problems with other pipelines. The originally proposed route would have gone right through the Ogallala Aquifer (Sand Hills, Nebraska) that provides much of the freshwater to America's Grainbelt which poses very serious potential problems if leaks occured because if this freshwater get tainted by oil spills, it would seriously destroy the economy, grains is one of america's top exports.

So, right now, they are making proposals for alternative routes and that is currently under consideration.
 
DeafCaroline said:
Speaking of liars, you might be interested in reading this: Lies, Damn Lies and the Big Whoppers of 2011: Jonathan Alter - Bloomberg

The reason for the delay on the pipeline deal is because of all the pipeline leak problems with other pipelines. The originally proposed route would have gone right through the Ogallala Aquifer (Sand Hills, Nebraska) that provides much of the freshwater to America's Grainbelt which poses very serious potential problems if leaks occured because if this freshwater get tainted by oil spills, it would seriously destroy the economy, grains is one of america's top exports.

So, right now, they are making proposals for alternative routes and that is currently under consideration.
Click to expand...

A bit off topic but need to address this.

The Ogallala aquifer is anywhere from 50 to 300 feet below the ground from across 8 states. The northern part of the Ogallala aquifer formation is in Nebraska.

Secondly, properties of oil (LNAPL) is a lighter than water phase liquid which means it floats or stays near the top in water. Oil interacts in various ways with the surrounding soils (absorption and adsorption), the ease of flow in the soils (permeability), the three dimensional aspect on fate and transfer, as well as time in the ground and water table fluctuation that coincide with seasonal changes (e.g. rainfall, snow melt) that serves to move and spread the oil through the soil columns. My M.S. thesis was on a 11,000 gasoline spill investigation in Idaho that lasted 4 years in learning and monitoring the fate and transfer of gasoline (which would be worse than an oil spill) in and near the shallow water table beneath the surface. This was a spill that leaked over time (several years) before it was finally discovered.

Thirdly, the pipeline's location is above the Ogallala aquifer only in Nebraska near the eastern end of the state where the Ogallala aquifer is at it's thinnest. The pipeline itself would travel some 247 miles above this aquifer system. The pipeline route would go through the shallower aquifer (water table) at Sand Hills (as shallow as 20 ft) and Platte River valley (as shallow as 5 ft). So, you have "approximately 65 miles of the proposed pipeline corridor in Nebraska could encounter groundwater at a depth below ground surface less than or equal to 10 feet." (see link at bottom).

Fourthly, the Keystone pipeline has, in accordance to EPA's regulations and recommendations specific to this project, numerous safe guards to minimize any oil leak. There's always a risk involving infrastructures such as pipelines springing a leak or a gusher which is why shutoff valves are placed all across the pipelines and at pump stations. In environmentally sensitive areas the spacing between shut off valves would need to be shorter. This is true for Keystone with its design on automatic shutoff valves using the latest leak detection technology.

Fifth, you'd have to find some serious, serious cracks in the earth for the leaked oil (in massive amount) to find its way down as much as 300 feet into the aquifer. A better argument would be concerns of contamination to wetlands, surface water (e.g. lakes, rivers, creeks) or very shallow water table that could impact aquatic life than the aquifer itself but even that can be used in an argument albeit it'd be weak one.

Lastly, if it does leak, the contaminant oil plume would be quite limited due to the nature of fate and transfer of oil (even for BTEX, Benzene, Toulene, Ethylbenzene, and Xlyene - organic components found in oil) at or near the surface on how it flows and interact with the surrounding soils. The best way to understand how an oil spill interact with the ground/soil and groundwater is to find nearby past oil spills not related to this pipeline proposal and what the oil spill plume looked like. The best one was this:

An example of a crude oil release from a pipeline system into an environment similar to the NHPAQ system and Sand Hills topographic region occurred on August 20, 1979 near Bemidji, Minnesota.

Approximately 449,400 gallons (10,700 bbl) of crude oil were released onto a glacial outwash deposit consisting primarily of sand and gravel. The water table in the spill area ranged from near the surface to about 35 feet below ground surface. As of 1996 the leading edge of the oil remaining in the subsurface at the water table had moved approximately 131 feet down gradient from the spill site, and the leading edge of the dissolved contaminant plume had moved about 650 feet down gradient. The referenced estimates for hydraulic conductivity in the NHPAQ system and the Sand Hills Unit are within the range of values estimated for the Bemidji spill site. Although the subsurface conditions in the Sand Hills Unit, the NHPAQ system, and at the Bemidji spill site are not identical, the soils exhibit similar hydraulic conductivities and flow characteristics. However, three dimensional transmissivity may differ. For instance, hydraulic conductivity in the Sand Hills topographic region near the top of a dune may be higher than in nearby lowlands or lakes. Other differences between the two sites likely include saturated thickness and potential influence of well pumping on hydraulic gradient. On a localized basis, it is acknowledged that water withdrawals through extensive pumping can influence the hydraulic gradient. While the two sites are not completely analogous, the Bemidji site provides the best physical model for response to an oil release in the NHPAQ system and studies of the Bemidji site suggest that a spill of similar magnitude in the Sand Hills would remain localized and the dimensions of the liquid plume and associated dissolved plumes would be similar in extent to the plumes at the Bemidji site.

Experience with oil spill cleanup therefore suggests that while short- to long- term impacts to the aquifer system in the immediate area of the spill site would likely occur, these impacts would be localized in nature and would be mitigated by appropriate and timely spill response with required regulatory oversight (see Section 3.13. 6.3 of the EIS and Consolidated Response AQF-3).
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http://www.keystonepipeline-xl.stat...A_Consolidated-Responses.pdf?OpenFileResource

The link is a "Final Environmental Impact Statement" for the Keystone pipeline that answers a lot of questions and concerns from individuals about the proposed project.

Remember, the Bemidji, Minnesota oil spill happened in 1979. Lesson learned from that introduced better safeguards and and over time with improved pipeline leak detection technology that would help minimize the risk for a catastrophic leak, or any large spill for that matter.
 
Two percent of all the water on this planet is freshwater. Why risk making that less? You can't grow or mine freshwater, it's in increasingly dwindling supply. And if you have an aquifier that's full of fresh pure water, it's wiser to bypass it than run a leaking pipeline through it.

There's been thousands of leaks from pipelines since 1979.
 
kokonut said:
A bit off topic but need to address this.

The Ogallala aquifer is anywhere from 50 to 300 feet below the ground from across 8 states. The northern part of the Ogallala aquifer formation is in Nebraska.

Secondly, properties of oil (LNAPL) is a lighter than water phase liquid which means it floats or stays near the top in water. Oil interacts in various ways with the surrounding soils (absorption and adsorption), the ease of flow in the soils (permeability), the three dimensional aspect on fate and transfer, as well as time in the ground and water table fluctuation that coincide with seasonal changes (e.g. rainfall, snow melt) that serves to move and spread the oil through the soil columns. My M.S. thesis was on a 11,000 gasoline spill investigation in Idaho that lasted 4 years in learning and monitoring the fate and transfer of gasoline (which would be worse than an oil spill) in and near the shallow water table beneath the surface. This was a spill that leaked over time (several years) before it was finally discovered.

Thirdly, the pipeline's location is above the Ogallala aquifer only in Nebraska near the eastern end of the state where the Ogallala aquifer is at it's thinnest. The pipeline itself would travel some 247 miles above this aquifer system. The pipeline route would go through the shallower aquifer (water table) at Sand Hills (as shallow as 20 ft) and Platte River valley (as shallow as 5 ft). So, you have "approximately 65 miles of the proposed pipeline corridor in Nebraska could encounter groundwater at a depth below ground surface less than or equal to 10 feet." (see link at bottom).

Fourthly, the Keystone pipeline has, in accordance to EPA's regulations and recommendations specific to this project, numerous safe guards to minimize any oil leak. There's always a risk involving infrastructures such as pipelines springing a leak or a gusher which is why shutoff valves are placed all across the pipelines and at pump stations. In environmentally sensitive areas the spacing between shut off valves would need to be shorter. This is true for Keystone with its design on automatic shutoff valves using the latest leak detection technology.

Fifth, you'd have to find some serious, serious cracks in the earth for the leaked oil (in massive amount) to find its way down as much as 300 feet into the aquifer. A better argument would be concerns of contamination to wetlands, surface water (e.g. lakes, rivers, creeks) or very shallow water table that could impact aquatic life than the aquifer itself but even that can be used in an argument albeit it'd be weak one.

Lastly, if it does leak, the contaminant oil plume would be quite limited due to the nature of fate and transfer of oil (even for BTEX, Benzene, Toulene, Ethylbenzene, and Xlyene - organic components found in oil) at or near the surface on how it flows and interact with the surrounding soils. The best way to understand how an oil spill interact with the ground/soil and groundwater is to find nearby past oil spills not related to this pipeline proposal and what the oil spill plume looked like. The best one was this:


http://www.keystonepipeline-xl.stat...A_Consolidated-Responses.pdf?OpenFileResource

The link is a "Final Environmental Impact Statement" for the Keystone pipeline that answers a lot of questions and concerns from individuals about the proposed project.

Remember, the Bemidji, Minnesota oil spill happened in 1979. Lesson learned from that introduced better safeguards and and over time with improved pipeline leak detection technology that would help minimize the risk for a catastrophic leak, or any large spill for that matter.
Click to expand...

:bsflag:
 
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