Obama has proposed his first budget.

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What exactly does any of the above have to do with Obama's budget proposal?

You should ask yourself that because you participated in derailment as well. :cool2:

BACK TO TOPIC (can you do that please as you always said?)
'Buy American' cuts both ways

Some fear growing global trade protection measures could make a deep recession even worse.
By Steve Hargreaves, CNNMoney.com staff writer
Last Updated: March 6, 2009: 12:43 PM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Some fear that the protectionist trend spreading across the globe could escalate into a growth killing global trade war.

The "buy American" provision that Congress slipped into the stimulus bill last month is just one of several protectionist measures governments are calling for during this unprecedented economic crunch. It requires contractors who get stimulus money to buy U.S.-made steel, iron and other manufactured goods.

Granted, the provision is considerably weaker than initially proposed. It exempts companies from 20 developed nations, such as Canada, Japan and members of the European Union. It also allowscontractors to buy foreign materials if buying equivalent U.S. goods would increase project costs by at least 25%.

Still, it applies to China, Brazil, India and Russia, among others, and it is part of a growing herd of protectionist measures. Governments, spending billions to prop up their economies, are under voter pressure to devote national money to help national industries.

But whether nursing domestic industry is good, bad, or simply hasn't gone far enough to matter is up for debate.
Arguing for more protectionism

Supporters in the United States say protecting domestic industries, no matter what other nations do in retaliation, is vital if we are to maintain our manufacturing capability and the high paying jobs that go with it.

"The manufacturing base here is totally inadequate to support first-world living standards," said Alan Tonelson, a research fellow at the U.S. Business and Industry Council, which represents small- and mid-size manufacturers.

A lack of manufacturing "is how we got here in the first place," said Tonelson, referring to the recession.

"The country isn't going to import its way out, spend its way out or borrow its way out," he added."It's got to produce its way out."

Although some U.S. trading partners reacted strongly against the original buy American rule - especially Canada and Brazil, the latter of which threatened a lawsuit - Tonelson sees little downside to more government support.

Many of our trading partners, he said, already have their own protectionist measures in place, whether they are explicit or hidden in the form of government bureaucracies that favor their own firms.

"[U.S. manufacturers] are already shut out of many procurement contracts," Tonelson said. "How much more harm could these provisions do?"

Although the buy American clause was watered down, Tonelson sees it as a springboard for further protections.

He named renewable energy as one sector deserving more government support. That support would go above and beyond the 30% tax break the stimulus plan offered to manufacturers of things like wind turbines and solar cells, and might require direct cash payments from the government.

"We've got this important precedent that's been set," he said. "We're going to try to beat this as far as we can."
Supporters of the free market

It's precisely that line of thinking that's got the free traders so worried.

Buy American, in its watered down form, isn't seen as particularly restrictive. But there's a fear it could grow. To free traders - including former Presidents George Bush and Bill Clinton - that means perpetuating inefficient industries at home, driving the cost of goods up and the quality down, and hampering a global economic recovery.

A host of other countries have enacted or are pushing for various forms of government protection for their domestic industries.

For the last year or so England's Prime Minister Gordon Brown has touted a "British jobs for British workers" campaign as the country attempts its own form of stimulus - a campaign that drew fire for being illegal and maybe even racist.

China recently expanded a tax break to cover exporters, a move many saw as protectionist. Turkey, Indonesia, India and Russia are just a few of the countries that have raised tariffs or placed other restrictions on imports. All this comes on top of the auto bailout in the United States, Europe and maybe soon Japan.

"That's already getting big, and we're just at the start," said Jeffrey Schott, a senior fellow with the Peterson Institute for International Economics.

The steel industry is sometimes held up as an example of why protectionism doesn't work. Facing stiff foreign competition in the early 1980s, the U.S. steel business fought for - and won - protective tariffs on imported products from their overseas competitors.

Yet many went out of business anyway, relying on protectionism instead of making the painful yet necessary reforms that may have kept them in business.

Schott certainly wants domestic manufacturing jobs; he just doesn't think trade protections are the way to get them.

"Politicians are getting pressed, they are concerned about money going abroad, but that's the short view," he said. "If you impose restrictions, you're just going to raise the cost of goods being produced. The sustainability of the recovery will be put in jeopardy."

There is another danger, too. Firms that gain government protection may be forced by the government to cater more to the domestic market.

This is already happening in banking, according to Paul Donovan, global economist at the Swiss bank UBS.

Donovan said the British government is requiring banks it bailed out to restrict lending abroad and free up money for the home front.

"It's making it more difficult to be truly global," said Donovan.

In a global economy, having banks looking inward is just as dangerous as governments looking inward.

"You had a series of national responses to a global crisis," he said, "We need consistent, global regulation, not inconsistent national regulation."
Nowhere near the 1930s

The most extreme example of protectionism gone awry is the Smoot-HawleyAct of 1930. In an attempt to protect domestic manufacturers, the law put a tariff on a broad range of imports coming into America. Many now say it played a key role in turning a recession into a depression as other nations retaliated with their own tariffs and global trade ground to a halt.

No one says we're anywhere near that.

Some say even the measures we've seen so far, buy American among them, are merely politically motivated blips, installed to placate the voting public but then quietly eased by the trade negotiators.

"Obama's trade policy makes clear that the administration will pursue open trade," said Sean West, a U.S. policy and trade strategist at Eurasia Group, a political consultancy. "Despite minor distortionary acts, fears of real U.S. protectionism leading to a trade war are overblown."

that's why we have an issue with Obama's plan.
 
Perhaps you missed this in your article:

"Obama's trade policy makes clear that the administration will pursue open trade," said Sean West, a U.S. policy and trade strategist at Eurasia Group, a political consultancy. "Despite minor distortionary acts, fears of real U.S. protectionism leading to a trade war are overblown."
 
Discrediting her posts due to her status of nationality? well I can say that I see no such xenophobic sentimentalism anywhere in Reba's post. I do agree that other ADers have a problem with her but Reba and my post are clean of any such xenophobic comment in this thread. We simply questioned her allegation/accusation.

Other ADers? Do you mean few anti-foriegners? Unfortunlately yes, they can´t open their mind and respect what I am and see different as them. Their problem is they cannot accept the fact where I come from. Can you explain why I don´t have problem with ADers for long 5 years until last year?

Reba started to look for an arguement when she KNEW very well because she was there in ALL 9/11 and Iraq war threads in the past. I polite offered her to search all threads to fresh her memory or go to google. I can´t see why she has the problem with that when she KNEW the google is public for everyone...


Perhaps you should fight your own battle. Your credibility is not doing so great these day.

What about you? Should I fresh your memory that I am alone to defend against anti-foriegners. I´m very grateful what and how Jillio and some ADers saw what and how you and anti-foriegners did to me. .

and her opinion is the same as anti-Bush Americans.

For your correction... Anti-Bush, not Americans.

You has to face sometimes if there´re negative and positive in my posts.[ /FONT]



back to topic! :cool2:

Yes.
 
Perhaps you missed this in your article:

"Obama's trade policy makes clear that the administration will pursue open trade," said Sean West, a U.S. policy and trade strategist at Eurasia Group, a political consultancy. "Despite minor distortionary acts, fears of real U.S. protectionism leading to a trade war are overblown."

that's the thing!!! If we pursue open trade - that means our own workers will lose jobs to cheap oversea products. Remember our "Rusty Belt"? (I hope that's the right term)
 
Increased taxes? I would love my taxes to increase. Right now I pay zero income taxes. I figure, if I get a job soon, that would increase my taxes. I despise not working. Being laid off sucks. So the wealthy have to chip in a bit more; at least they have income. I have worked hard for 35 years, and to sit around all day, waiting for ANYONE to respond to my resume or job applications.....very disheartening. Where does the tax money come from, when nearly 9% of the workforce sits? We want to be Cops for the World? Somebody has to pay for all these things.

You speak of truth on most part but let me just slightly redirect you there. It's a common misnomer that we are the cop of the world. Yes I do understand that we go around poking our nose in foreign affairs, telling them what to do & what not to do and what you can have & what you cannot have. Yes Yes Yes I understand all that. We're not perfect but we do criticize & chastise our own government and politicians for their misplaced/corrupted agenda - something that many people can't do in many countries (aka Domestic Dissents)....

But know this... we still continue to be a lighthouse beacon for many and we continue to set the example of humanity going FORWARD, not backward. Many victims, especially in countries ravished with wars and poverty especially Africa, pray everyday for Americans to come. Nothing is more beautiful than hearing & seeing the American choppers coming. Hope is the most powerful emotion to cling onto will to live despite of horrible, inhumane things they see & experience everyday.... and USA is their hope for better future. Yes I understand our domestic affair is in dire need of revamp but know this - despite of our troubled situation, it's still 100000000x better than living in a shitty gutter with only 3 walls, no reliable source of water & food, daily rapes/killings/kidnappings, and walking for 2 days to nearest hospital.

America! Vote. Pay your tax. Do your duty so that our government can help others and you. :cool2:
 
that's the thing!!! If we pursue open trade - that means our own workers will lose jobs to cheap oversea products. Remember our "Rusty Belt"? (I hope that's the right term)

"Despite minor distortionary acts, fears of real U.S. protectionism leading to a trade war are overblown."
 
"Despite minor distortionary acts, fears of real U.S. protectionism leading to a trade war are overblown."

that's the author's opinion. :cool2:
 
and my opinion disputes his as well. The history has already disputed his opinion too. :cool2:

And the difference would be level of expertise.:cool2: But you're the one that posted the article as reasoning for why you were opposed to Obama's proposal.

How exactly has history disputed his assertions? The world has never been as globally oriented at any point in history as it is now.
 
nope. Plenty of other articles would say same as mine. :cool2:

The same as your article or the same as your opinion? Because your article posted here does not really support your opinion.

However, if there are other articles out there that do, you are more than welcome to post them.
 
And the difference would be level of expertise.:cool2: But you're the one that posted the article as reasoning for why you were opposed to Obama's proposal.
Did I say I oppose to it? I expressed a concern.

How exactly has history disputed his assertions? The world has never been as globally oriented at any point in history as it is now.
I see you re-edit your post. Well - that's why it's called "debate." The best we can do is look at the history. So are you telling me that you're economic expert as well? It's beginning to sound like you're an expert on all subjects :hmm:

link
 
Did I say I oppose to it? I expressed a concern.


I see you re-edit your post. Well - that's why it's called "debate." The best we can do is look at the history. So are you telling me that you're economic expert as well? It's beginning to sound like you're an expert on all subjects :hmm:

link

And what history would that be, Jiro? The progression shows exactly what I have just stated. At no other time in history has the world been as globally oriented as it is today.
 
see the link above that I posted at the bottom of my paragraph.

The progression shows exactly what I have just stated. At no other time in history has the world been as globally oriented as it is today. And also supports the theoretical concept that Obama is now employing.
 
And what history would that be, Jiro? The progression shows exactly what I have just stated. At no other time in history has the world been as globally oriented as it is today.

sorry but that has to be the biggest bullshit I've ever heard. :laugh2: Did you learn from "How to argue effectively" or something? :hmm:

Use meaningless but weighty-sounding words and phrases.

Memorize this list:

Let me put it this way
In terms of
Vis-a-vis
Per se
As it were
Qua
Ipso facto
Ergo
So to speak

You should also memorize some Latin abbreviations such as "Q.E.D.", "e.g.", and "i.e." These are all short for "I speak Latin, and you don't." Here's how to use these words and phrases. Suppose you want to say, "Peruvians would like to order appetizers more often, but they don't have enough money."

You never win arguments talking like that. But you WILL win if you say, "Let me put it this way. In terms of appetizers vis-a-vis Peruvians qua Peruvians, they would like to order them more often, so to speak, but they do not have enough money per se, as it were. Ergo, ipso facto, case closed. Q.E.D."

Only a fool would challenge that statement.

Use snappy and irrelevant comebacks.

You need an arsenal of all-purpose irrelevant phrases to fire back at your opponents when they make valid points. The best are:

You're begging the question.
You're being defensive.
Don't compare apples to oranges.
What are your parameters?

This last one is especially valuable. Nobody (other than engineers and policy wonks) has the vaguest idea what "parameters" means.

Don't forget the classic: YOU'RE SO LINEAR.

Here's how to use your comebacks:

You say: As Abraham Lincoln said in 1873...
Your opponent says: Lincoln died in 1865.
You say: You're begging the question.
You say: Liberians, like most Asians...
Your opponent says: Liberia is in Africa.
You say: You're being defensive.
You say: Since the discovery of the incandescent light bulb...
Your opponent says: The light bulb is an invention.
You say: Well DUH!
 
I reduced your comments a bit....
But know this... we still continue to be a lighthouse beacon for many.....I agree. They built those fences to keep the Mexicans from entering the US. They don't need the barb wire to keep Americans out of Mexico.
America! Vote. Pay your tax. Do your duty so that our government can help others and you. :cool2:

Nothing wrong with paying taxes. It keeps things working. All the tightening of budgets have done is deflect the dangers of underfunding to the next administration. Near my home, the busiest bridge collapsed during the busiest time of day. Part of the reason? Because corners were cut from inspection due to budget constraints. Tell those that lost family and friend; "we needed to save money for other concerns".
 
sorry but that has to be the biggest bullshit I've ever heard. :laugh2: Did you learn from "How to argue effectively" or something? :hmm:

Again with the attempts at personal insults instead of sticking to the topic. Typical of one who has already lost the debate but doesn't have the humility to admit it.
 
I agree. They built those fences to keep the Mexicans from entering the US. They don't need the barb wire to keep Americans out of Mexico.
Remember in my comment about leeches? they are the leeches of our system. That's why we built fence to keep them off. I don't know about you but what Americans would sneak into Mexico for work when McDonald job pays more than what they pay in Mexico? although..... with this troubled economy going on now.. maybe they do need to sneak in Mexico now.... :laugh2:

Nothing wrong with paying taxes. It keeps things working. All the tightening of budgets have done is deflect the dangers of underfunding to the next administration. Near my home, the busiest bridge collapsed during the busiest time of day. Part of the reason? Because corners were cut from inspection due to budget constraints. Tell those that lost family and friend; "we needed to save money for other concerns".
If you're referring to Minnesota bridge collapse, it's not entirely government's fault for that. The DOT had already labeled it as "structurally deficient" and the government has specific parameters for bridge. The company installed wrong gusset plates.
 
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