Language differences....

[Tousi]

Fuzz, this will be my last statement to you on/in THIS thread: If you were referring to me in that POV stuff (I was not directly quoted but I should be; others have asked you to do this as it makes for better clarity)then let me re-phrase and amplify a bit: POV's are not ordinarily dismissed out of hand toward those we do not know well, and they ARE towards certain infamous posters who are now long gone. POV's are generally respected whether we agree or not; we are all different in our ability/willingness to hold our tongues. However, in your case, after, I don't know, 50? posts/responses from you, many of us THEN dismissed your posts along the scale from breaking the rules here to silence and everything in between. And it is now posts in the hundreds. What will it take?

Now, do yourself a favor and back off the stuff that is old and begin anew. That's my motto for you in the coming days: BEGIN ANEW! Good night.

 

[IslandGal]

There are several factors in the high illiteracy rate among the deaf/hard of hearing population. However, I cannot say that ASL is a factor because it is a complete language.

It doesn't make any sense to blame a language for the high illiteracy rate in another language. The real cause of illiteracy is due to the lack of proper education. In many schools for the deaf and mainstreamed programs in public schools, education is neglected because everybody has different ideas of how to educate the deaf and hard of hearing. That's why there's so much confusion among us. Many of us are unable to agree on an educational system for the deaf and hard of hearing.

The first five years of a child's life is the most crucial for language development. That's where you start. In other parts of the world, many children are bilingual. I'm fluent in both English and ASL. I know some people who are fluent in several languages; which is why I doubt ASL is a factor. It's the lack of the proper education. Children need to be exposed to English and ASL within the first five years of their lives. If they aren't, they are likely to face a lot of barriers in the future.

It's all about receiving the proper education. Not many deaf children are getting it. Instead, the government and board of education don't see them as a high priority. That's the sad truth.

Audiofuzzy, what you are lacking is the skill to be a good communicator. As a substitution to make up for your weakness, you are attacking the people here due to the miscommunication issues. When you're in a situation where a communication issue is present, you are a part of the problem, not just the other side. Both sides are at fault for not being able to communicate. At least that's the case most of the times.

Some people here are being unfair, but you need to realize that you aren't being fair either. There's no sense in making attempts to provoke each other whenever possible.

If you want to ask questions, at least listen to our answers. Don't treat us like second citizens and we won't treat you like one.

You have said it all, Banjo!

 

[Audiofuzzy]

There are several factors in the high illiteracy rate among the deaf/hard of hearing population. However, I cannot say that ASL is a factor because it is a complete language.

It doesn't make any sense to blame a language for the high illiteracy rate in another language. The real cause of illiteracy is due to the lack of proper education. In many schools for the deaf and mainstreamed programs in public schools, education is neglected because everybody has different ideas of how to educate the deaf and hard of hearing. That's why there's so much confusion among us. Many of us are unable to agree on an educational system for the deaf and hard of hearing.

The first five years of a child's life is the most crucial for language development. That's where you start. In other parts of the world, many children are bilingual. I'm fluent in both English and ASL. I know some people who are fluent in several languages; which is why I doubt ASL is a factor. It's the lack of the proper education. Children need to be exposed to English and ASL within the first five years of their lives. If they aren't, they are likely to face a lot of barriers in the future.

It's all about receiving the proper education. Not many deaf children are getting it. Instead, the government and board of education don't see them as a high priority. That's the sad truth.

Audiofuzzy, what you are lacking is the skill to be a good communicator. As a substitution to make up for your weakness, you are attacking the people here due to the miscommunication issues. When you're in a situation where a communication issue is present, you are a part of the problem, not just the other side. Both sides are at fault for not being able to communicate. At least that's the case most of the times.

Some people here are being unfair, but you need to realize that you aren't being fair either. There's no sense in making attempts to provoke each other whenever possible.

If you want to ask questions, at least listen to our answers. Don't treat us like second citizens and we won't treat you like one.

You said it yourself Banjo -

The real cause of illiteracy is due to the lack of proper education. In many schools for the deaf and mainstreamed programs in public schools, education is neglected because everybody has different ideas of how to educate the deaf and hard of hearing. That's why there's so much confusion among us.

And ASL, as I've said is most certainly a factor - it causes "accent". You want proof - read posts where even the most affluent ASL users asks Shel (or anybody) for translation.
So, don't blame ME for poor communication skills - except for some people, others understand me just fine, and I never had any communication problems on "hearing boards", and I have been to plenty. Still am.
In fact I was a few times even complimented for my written English.

If one has less than perfect literacy or strong accent, then no matter how great my communicative skills are- he/she won't get it.
That is why I am asking "when I say this is no it - believe me".

Fuzzy

 

[Audiofuzzy]

(I was not directly quoted but I should be; others have asked you to do this as it makes for better clarity)

can you imagine that I simply missed your quote in the sea of many when I was putting the names before citations? unbeliveable, huh? never happens to anybody!
geez, can you be more picky?

Fuzzy

 

[Banjo]

You said it yourself Banjo -

And ASL, as I've said is most certainly a factor - it causes "accent". You want proof - read posts where even the most affluent ASL users asks Shel (or anybody) for translation.

How can ASL be a factor when most deaf adults who are functionally illiterate weren't exposed to ASL when they were children? Yes, you read that right. Many, many deaf children didn’t start learning ASL until after they were out of high school or later.

That’s why I’m saying that it’s practically impossible that ASL is the culprit in causing illiteracy among the deaf population. ASL is not as common as you think it is.

So, don't blame ME for poor communication skills

You are partly responsible for the situation here whether you like it or not.

except for some people, others understand me just fine, and I never had any communication problems on "hearing boards", and I have been to plenty. Still am. In fact I was a few times even complimented for my written English.

There's no need to brush off the fact that you are a part of the problem here. After all, you're the one who created the thread. I'm not talking about the other message boards. I'm talking about your attitude here at Alldeaf.

You may be fluent in English, but that doesn't make you a good communicator. A good communicator means being able to communicate with anybody, regardless of their literacy skills. You haven't shown any of that here.

If one has less than perfect literacy or strong accent, then no matter how great my communicative skills are- he/she won't get it. That is why I am asking "when I say this is no it - believe me".

Which is why your communicative skills are questionable. If I am able to communicate with people who are functionally illiterate, you should be able to do the same.

I suggest that you do some research on the subject because there's a lot to learn. Now, I have to ask you this question. Are you fluent in ASL?

Most people do not have perfect literacy. In fact, the average reading and writing level in the USA is quite low. I also recall statistics claiming that there are around 11 to 12 million Americans who are illiterate. So you can imagine how many are barely able to read on a technical level.

Brag all you want to about how enlightened you are on the subject of ASL. It’s not going to get you anywhere. I am fluent in both ASL and English; I assure you that you don’t know what you are talking about. The parents are a major factor on why there is a massive amount of functionally illiterate Americans out there.

Like I said, the first five years of a child’s life is crucial when it come to language development. That’s where many parents make the biggest mistakes jeopardizing their children’s future. Both doctors and parents need to be enlightened on the importance of language development.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Recently on the other forum I was accused of being disrespectful because I dared to point out how some deaf members seem not be understanding written hearing English well.

Fuzzy

Fuzzy's post
yes, I don't know how to really describe the English that is used commonly in books, magazines, newspapers, radio, TV movies, among hearing people etc. If you know or have a suggestion I would welcome it.
It is important to me as I have in mind THIS specific English.

Really?

Your post is the best proof that you have a lack of knowledge over hearing people who struggle to read and write but busy to consider negative over deaf/Deaf people...



The Sector Skills Council for Central Government - Skills for Life - Background


If we can't understand "hearing written" (accord your word) then we would not buy magazines, books, newspapers or whatever, don't we? For your information, I own many "hearing written" books in my house and buy weekly "hearing written" magazines... because I can READ them...

Next time, please don't point your finger to deaf/Deaf people and make negative over their lack of reading/understanding/writing.... This is a misleading...

The problem is YOU who refuse to accept the fact that we (most) have the same view over you and your behavior manner here and several threads.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

How can ASL be a factor when most deaf adults who are functionally illiterate weren't exposed to ASL when they were children? Yes, you read that right. Many, many deaf children didn’t start learning ASL until after they were out of high school or later.

You know, - bottom line- the problem is weak communication, not its reasons. I do not insist it's only ASL that causes that. In the case of illiteracy, ASL indeed might not be a factor, or not the only factor.
In the case of literacy ASL might be a factor.
but that doesn't change much the outcome anyway.

That’s why I’m saying that it’s practically impossible that ASL is the culprit in causing illiteracy among the deaf population.

I never said anything about illiteracy - let's not get carried away.

ASL is not as common as you think it is.

??????

You are partly responsible for the situation here whether you like it or not.

And yet you put the WHOLE blame on me.

After all, you're the one who created the thread.

I created this thread because I wanted to bring everybody's attention to the fact of communication problems due to written language differences.

You may be fluent in English, but that doesn't make you a good communicator. A good communicator means being able to communicate with anybody, regardless of their literacy skills. You haven't shown any of that here.

Interesting, because there is only a certain small group of people with similar language who have problems understanding me. maybe they aren't as great communicators, either?
Others seem to be getting my point just fine.
and on every hearing site I participate - nobody have any problems communicating with me....

If I am able to communicate with people who are functionally illiterate, you should be able to do the same.

perhaps because they don't INGORE what you say?

Most people do not have perfect literacy.

may I remind you it was never about literacy, so there is not need to get wired up about this, please?

The parents are a major factor on why there is a massive amount of functionally illiterate Americans out there.

First of all I do not brag - you probably missed my posts when I wrote about my often "off" grammar and my "accent". As for the parents - I totally agree.

Fuzzy

 

[Audiofuzzy]

The problem is YOU who refuse to accept the fact that we (most) have the same view over you and your behavior manner here and several threads.

Oh I always can see very well how guys have the same view but this is not related to the thread, not to what I am saying.
You are basically over and over agreeing among themselves "how bad, terrible Fuzzy is" - and high-fiveing each other on. that's all.

But the thread wasn't about me...

Fuzzy

 

[Liebling:-)))]

And, in fuzzy's little comparison, she claims that the friend does not "know" she is fat. Do you see that we continue to tell fuzzy that the problem is with her, not with everyone else, yet she refuses toaccept that fact inspite of the numerous posters that are in agreement of who is at fault. Just like that overwieght friend that fuzzy talked about. I'm sure that there is plenty of evidence staring the obese person inthe face. Doctors perhaps tellingher she needs to loose weight, not fitting into smaller size clothes, looking in the mirror on a daily basis, etc. Yet the friend continues to recognize what is right there in front of her.

Seems to me that the overweight friend refusing to accept the fact that she is not thin is pretty much the same as fuzzy refusing to accept that the problem with her inability to amke herself understood lies with her. The way she has compared the two, the person who is overweight is not responsible....it is all the people who are NOT overweight are responsible for the fact that she just looks overweight. But here, it is not the person who is having problems communicating that is at fault.....it is everyone else who has difficulty understanding her that are to blame.

*nodding agreement* I can see that... That's what I said to her that her post over obese person make no sense.

Like what Fuzzy described about an obese person who "don't know" that she is fat when she ask thin person for lend clothes... exactly same that she don't know that she is the one who cause some threads to lock but keep on blame deaf/Deaf members for misunderstand/miscommunication, etc... She even don't know that she was banned for 24 hours last week... She even don't know those word [I]"What you replied but look you are much bigger than me you will rip my clothes off" (Fuzzy's own word)[/I] are offensive and critizing...

I let her know that it's an offensive and critizing...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Oh I always can see very well how guys have the same view but this is not related to the thread, not to what I am saying.
You are basically over and over agreeing among themselves "how bad, terrible Fuzzy is" - and high-fiveing each other on. that's all.

But the thread wasn't about me...

Fuzzy

*sigh* I really feel sorry for you...

We tried to convince you... You don't want to see it...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

You really don't get it, Audiofuzzy.

*nodding agreement sadly*

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Look, being ASL and having your standard English affected by it is nothing to be ashamed of, or bad, or anything.

Really? In your way to make ASL look bad...

Do you remember your own word? It's not first time you said this...

pay attention to my posts, ask people to translate them into ASL for you and then you will be clear on my stance.

so there is no reason nor need for the stated fact being labeled "offensive".
Is sayinfg: "we are deaf, and not being able to hear" offensive?

Don't try to twist it... You POINT deaf/Deaf over their writing grammar, misunderstand/miscommunication "English hearing written" etc. which you should make your post in general way "some people have problem to understand/communicate.... English written, etc." instead of POINT your finger to Deaf/deaf ONLY over misunderstand/miscommunicate... English hearing written.... which is not acceptance. The way of your post over Deaf/deaf look bad... This is an offensive.

I wasn't "fingerpointing" PEOPLE - I was pointing out to the SOURCE of the PROBLEMS - a diffrence in language understanding.

I am afraid yes, you did pointed to name the people with your finger...

http://www.alldeaf.com/854197-post24.html

it does in a way that it affects how you use your language, syntax mostly.
I am Polish, I have polish "accent" in my English. It's natural, as it is yours for you.
Multiple intelligence can be additional factor, yes I agree but here mainly is ASL "accent".

I understand 3 different languages and plus 3 different sign languages... so? I sometimes confused with grammar due 3 different languages because I use them everyday... so? I have no problem with anyone including hearing people as well... Where is your problem then?

I do not expect anybody to agree with me or share my point of view

Exactly...

nor I consider anybody "low functioning" I would never.
I KNOW why people write way they write. That is not the problem, the problem is how it may create misunderstandings, and because of that it is important to remember IT. so when I say "this is not what I mean" - please believe me!
I just want to be UNDERSTOOD. and I will be only when people start remembering exactly that:

Yes the problem is you because you don't want to understand and not even try to debate with us in polite way with agree/disagree but insult/bash/accuse us... ...

 

[Angel]

I created this thread because I wanted to bring everybody's attention to the fact of communication problems due to written language differences

And how are you going to solve that problem Fuzzy?...

 

[IslandGal]

Yea, all she was doing was being "Miss High and Mighty".

 

[Banjo]

Audiofuzzy,

You know, - bottom line- the problem is weak communication, not its reasons. I do not insist it's only ASL that causes that. In the case of illiteracy, ASL indeed might not be a factor, or not the only factor.
In the case of literacy ASL might be a factor.

but that doesn't change much the outcome anyway.

You are implying that it is. You are trying to put the blame on ASL; you made this very clear from the beginning. Only the problem is, your theories don’t hold water. You don't base it on any studies or experiences. You are just making these assumptions.

And yet you put the WHOLE blame on me.

I said you are partly responsible for the situation here. Do you really think that it's entirely their fault for what's happening here? Not quite. Take off your tinfoil hat, like I said the last time.

You are a weak communicator. The proof is right there in your posts. If that weren’t the case, then we wouldn't be discussing this. You just keep on carrying out the attacks against people for not "understanding" you when you are also a part of the problem.

I never said anything about illiteracy - let's not get carried away.

Then what are we talking about? What you brought up has a lot to do with functional illiteracy; it has a lot to do with miscommunication issues. I'll say it's relevant to the subject. Stop backpedaling.

??????

ASL is not as commonly used, as you would be led to believe is what I'm saying. You're grasping at straws right now and it's showing. It's pretty sad since you didn't have much of a leg to stand on to start with on this so-called argument of yours.

Now, please answer my question I asked earlier.

Are you fluent in ASL?

 

[Interpretrator]

*hopes for *

 

[SxyPorkie]

*hopes for *

Unfortunely I agreed with you... i did asked this thread to be locked...

I can understand Fuzzy wearing two hearing aids and has lots of headaches... after attacks... one of her family signed "tea" to her and she nodded... clearly she knows very little sign langauges..
i remembered long time she posted that she was at the train station waiting for her train.. she saw couples using sign langauges.. she practically did not understand.. she avoided from them... as if she is hearing...RME

 

[Maria]

Oh I always can see very well how guys have the same view but this is not related to the thread, not to what I am saying.
You are basically over and over agreeing among themselves "how bad, terrible Fuzzy is" - and high-fiveing each other on. that's all.

But the thread wasn't about me...

Fuzzy

Oh, yes this thread is about you since you created this thread. It came from your own thoughts and wondered what others has to say when you created this thread.

You don't know if, they were givin' each other high-5. You really don't know that. They just happen agreed, based on their experiences and knowledges. There are several ADers who disagreed with you about written English/language, because of what you did that are very offensive. I don't think you were bein' nice when you brought up about " overweight " and " clothin' ". That thread is ALL about YOU. And, don't tell me that it is NOT what you are sayin', because for one, I will not believe you.

I think it is time for you to SAY your apologizes to some ADers that you offended ... aaaand, then ASK one of moderators to CLOSE this thread. Once you apologize, it means " bygones " and, then MOVE ON. Don't you ever bring it up again - DON'T go back to that same issue. It's in the garbage and it stays there for good.

 

[Cheri]

How can ASL be a factor when most deaf adults who are functionally illiterate weren't exposed to ASL when they were children? Yes, you read that right. Many, many deaf children didn’t start learning ASL until after they were out of high school or later.

You're absolute correct, I kept informing them that I wasn't exposed to ASL until much later.

I had to exposed to mostly what most hearings parents usual go in what routine, replying on speech, lip-reading, listening because that's their goal in order to participate fully in the hearing world, most hearing parents know little or nothing about the deaf it's culture, the requirements, the aided in order to provide what is needed for the deaf. It's the hard truth that some hearing parents refuse to admit.

 

[DreamDeaf]

Maria - thumbs up!

As for the overweight comment, I was a little offended, too... as I am overweight, and VERY WELL AWARE of my size. There is no way in heaven or hell I would ever ask to borrow another person's clothing, as I know it will probably not fit me. As for the ripping and tearing, that was... well, let's say, it hurt to read it and know that it would be too easy for me to do that.

I know you were only speaking hypothetically, but still...there are fine lines that can be crossed all too easily.

If you had been speaking about a person that often spoke loudly, that might have worked - as there are people that do speak loudly and are not aware of it, or not wanting to admit it.

As for locking a thread, the only times I can lock a thread is by the creator's request, if it goes into a flame war, or if it has gone totally off topic and out of control.