Is there a such thing as "true bilingualism"?

Bottesini said:
Even if you don't like to OP's manner, she has been living it for six years now. She is quite bright and really not confused.

And your daughter's loss is different from profound deafness. My husband has a moderated loss and he speaks perfectly well Everyone understands him. Of course there is no reason not to learn speech with a mild or moderate hearing loss.
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Sorry, I meant no offense to the original poster or to her intelligence by saying she was confusing the two. I think she's giving her daughter great opportunities, and I think she must be very bright and thoughtful to have made the decisions she has. Actually, I think it's the teachers who are confusing language and speech, because they're the ones telling her that her daughter can't be bilingual.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
it is true, if the child is struggling to learn speech. Is your child struggling to the point that it have to be the sole focus all day?
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I agree if the scenario occurs above; that educational system should be prepared to scuttle that strategy (and quickly) before it is too late and focus on something else/better.
 
faire_jour said:
I didn't say there was anything wrong with either choice, I just want to know if I must make a choice. Does there really have to be one primary language? Is it possible to be equally comfortable in spoken language AND asl?
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That would be based on the requirements of the school I would imagine. Seems like you do have to make a choice based on the options given by the school. If you don't agree then fight it. If they won't change then you either have to live with it or take Miss Kat to a school that will accomidate your wishes. I know... eaiser said than done. All the best!
 
Bottesini said:
Even if you don't like to OP's manner, she has been living it for six years now. She is quite bright and really not confused.

And your daughter's loss is different from profound deafness. My husband has a moderated loss and he speaks perfectly well Everyone understands him. Of course there is no reason not to learn speech with a mild or moderate hearing loss.
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You are quite right, I am perfectly aware of the difference between speech and language. (Thanks for the vote of confidence!) That is why I say "spoken language" and not speech. I am also trying to define the difference between "hearing and speaking fluent spoken language" and "oral skills".
 
faire_jour said:
No, I think a very few people here support oral first. I think a small number support what I would call "true bilingualism" (ASL and spoken language as equal in emphasis and importance).
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OK, I should have said "confounding." I meant "confusing" in the sense that you are not distinguishing completely between the two (and I do think the lines are blurry), not in the sense that you don't know the difference. I meant no disrespect. :)

You said that "spoken language" is part of "true bilingualism."

The original question at the very beginning of the thread was "Is there such a thing as true bilingualism?" The answer to that is yes. After that it seems that there is some disagreement over whether that has to include "fluent, spoken language" or not. I guess I really don't understand why the teacher told you it was not possible. If it's because she believes that the brain must have a dominant language, that is not true. If it is because she believes that in order to have a perfect command of "spoken language" a child must focus all of her attention on speech, then she's talking about speech and not language. But maybe she meant it more in a social sense, regarding her cultural or linguistic identity?
 
lucyinthesky said:
OK, I should have said "confounding." I meant "confusing" in the sense that you are not distinguishing completely between the two (and I do think the lines are blurry), not in the sense that you don't know the difference. I meant no disrespect. :)

You said that "spoken language" is part of "true bilingualism."

The original question at the very beginning of the thread was "Is there such a thing as true bilingualism?" The answer to that is yes. After that it seems that there is some disagreement over whether that has to include "fluent, spoken language" or not. I guess I really don't understand why the teacher told you it was not possible. If it's because she believes that the brain must have a dominant language, that is not true. If it is because she believes that in order to have a perfect command of "spoken language" a child must focus all of her attention on speech, then she's talking about speech and not language. But maybe she meant it more in a social sense, regarding her cultural or linguistic identity?
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I mean can a deaf child be bilingual in both spoken language AND ASL. Is it possible to emphasis both and have fluency in both.
 
I would like to think that it's absolutely fine for my daughter to sign and not speak, but at the end of the day I don't believe everyone in my community (or my family) will learn to sign. I do think this comes from my natural bias as a hearing person. It is hard for me to step out of the hearing way of thinking, and part of that is that I want my daughter to hear as well as possible. If she ends up not being able to hear even with technological assistance then I will rethink that, but for now I am being honest with myself and saying that I would like her to be able to speak well.
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That's not being audist. That's simply acknowleding that the majority of dhh kids should be able to develop speech skills as much as possible, so that they can be independent in the greater society. Sort of like the way kids who are PR (Purto Rican) American should be able to develop decent English skills, so they can function in the greater community.
Oh and Lucyinthesky, that ROCKS that even thou your daughter only has a mild-moderate loss, you're still pursuing ASL and Deaf culture. Many hoh kids don't get too much exposure to Deaf stuff, even thou it COULD be helpful for them.
One of the objections I have to speech all the time is that even for those of us who are "just hoh", speech all the time is like eternal speech therapy.
I mean we have to remember how to pronounce words correctly, we often get made fun of or thought of as retarded b/c of the quality of our speech etc.
 
Miss Kat can certainly be fluent in both. If the school must make you choose only one, you can practice the other at home. In fact, I strongly encourage that. I lucked out in that I had full ASL and full speech training growing up. I'm 40 now, and being able to speak so fluently and sign so fluently has really carried me all my adult life. If Miss Kat chooses to "drop" one form of communication as she grows older, at least she has tried both. I would say forget what the schools are telling you as far as choosing one form of communication - you just may have to carry some of the weight on your shoulders at home if they won't help you in the schools. It is sucky that they are making you choose.
 
My experience growing up bilingual

faire_jour said:
You see that because you want to. It makes closed minded people feel better to sterotype than to listen.

My child has been given ASL everyday of her life, she attends a voice-off ASL church with a Deaf teacher, all her best friends are Deaf of Deaf, and we are very active in the Deaf community, BUT because I believe that learning spoken language is EQUAL in importance as ASL and written language (actually, scratch that, I believe reading and writing is actually number 1, but you get the point), I am an audist, oralist, genocidal abusive parent who hates the Deaf community and spits on their life experiences....yeah, sure, whatever...
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Dear faire_jour,
i havent finished reading yet, so i may comment again in a second, but I believe Miss Kat can be fluent in both, but she may choose otherwise when she gets older.
I will use my family as an example, while we all grew up hearing i believe that it is applicable to a point.

My parents: English speakers, no french
My School:
-kindergarten through grade 3: all french. No english instruction. (I believe that at the end of grade 3 I was my most biligual.. just fyi)
-grade 4-6: half day french, half day english
-grade 7-8: certain subjects in each language
-high school: i was able to choose what subjects to take in what language. for example, grades 9 & 10 i took science and math in french, but chose to take chemistry, biology and physics in english in grades 11 & 12

Now lets compare my sister and I: both had the same schooling situation. In high school, my sister LOVED french and chose to continue to persue it. She has since graduated, done a 4-year undergrad in French, taught English overseas for 2 years, and is currently completing a 2-year masters in French (in France!). Is she bilingual? HECK YES! She is probably just as good in both languages. When she comes home from France it takes her a while to stop thinking in french, and when she returns to france she says it takes a while to get back into thinking in French.

Lets look at me: same schooling situation. Halfway through high school i started HATING having to take french. I only continued with it because i figured i'd put in 10 years already, i could do 2 more and be recognized as 'bilingual' by the government. Do i use my french? HECK NO. Do i intend on using my french? MAYBE to read if i absolutely HAVE to. Otherwise, nope.

Both of these outcomes from a home where my parents spoke no french. Did we have a GREAT school? yes.. we were lucky that such a good public school was around the corner. Did we ever speak french at home? Not really.. us kids would sometimes if we wanted to say nasty things about our parents. Did my parents end up learning some french? yep.. they picked it up as they helped us with our homework. Is my sister through-and-through bilingual? YES. Am I? maybe, depends on your definition of bilingual.

So what is my point in all this??? While it doesn't directly apply to ASL/english since one is visual and the other is auditory, i believe that she can be fluent in both, especially with a CI. My suggestion would be to put her in the ASL class, and work with her at home on her English. Get her playdates with both hearing and Deaf peers. It will be hard work, but it will be worth it until she is old enough to choose. She will be learning some English at school (reading/writing) so you can relate it to everything at home. Since you also sign, it may be beneficial to do a few days a week in ASL-only, to benefit the rest of the family. When she gets a bit older and has a more established repetoir of ASL and English, request the school board to let her do a half day (or half week?) in each a hearing and Deaf class, to allow her to build upon both languages and interact with both sets of peers.

These are just my ideas. You are free to disregard any of them as you wish. I did not grow up deaf/Deaf, so my views may be totally out of whack with everyone else here. I am simply telling you my views from growing up bilingual.

I hope this helps you,

*EQL*
 
sorry.. i should also add that the reason i say 'send her to the ASL class' is because you aren't fluent in ASL/Deaf culture. That is something the school can give her that you cannot. You can give her English, and probably a good amount of ASL, but you can't give her the same amount of culture as the ASL class can.
Again, just my opinion!
*EQL*
 
evil_queen_lisa said:
sorry.. i should also add that the reason i say 'send her to the ASL class' is because you aren't fluent in ASL/Deaf culture. That is something the school can give her that you cannot. You can give her English, and probably a good amount of ASL, but you can't give her the same amount of culture as the ASL class can.
Again, just my opinion!
*EQL*
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While I may not be as fluent as a Deaf person or an adult CODA, I am widely considered "acceptable" by all people I meet. I don't struggle to follow any conversations in ASL, and while my own signing is less than beautiful, it is certainly good. (When I interviewed for a job at the school for the Deaf they asked me to rate my signing skills, on a scale of 1-5, and answer in ASL. I gave myself a 2, for various reasons, that I explained. The Deaf adult argued with me and told me that I was easily a 4.) So, we aren't the average hearing family that learns baby signs and then quits and then can't communicate as their child grows.

We have many reasons that we don't have her in the ASL-English class right now. The first is the silence. The program is totally voice off. A child can use their voice during one, 20 minute pull out speech session a week, otherwise spoken language is equally as forbidden as ASL is in the oral class.

Second, she is not around any fluent spoken language users. Kids learn language best by exsposure to native users, especially other kids. She wouldn't have the chance to be around other deaf, spoken language users.

Third, CI's and the auditory nerve and auditory pathways in the brain are "use it or lose it". If the nerve and hearing sections of the brain are not used, they atropy and become less affective (hence the push for early implantaion) and the window for fluent spoken language begins closing at age 8. (My daughter is 6 1/2) So it is now or never. (If you look at non-users and low preformances users of CI's, you will find very very few that were implanted before age 2, a tiny bit more, but still few, implanted before 4, but after age 5, the number increases rapidly. If implanted after age 8, it is rare to find a fully fluent spoken language user, barring progressive loss or things like that.)

And last, but not least, the school is NOT accepting of spoken language. It is seen as useless, the therapy they provide is inadequate and inappropriate and they don't care. My daughter went to that school, with a moderate loss, and we did all the things you suggested, for 3 years, and she made exactly ZERO progress with spoken language. She started with the spoken language of a 15 month old and she was activated with the same level. Now she has been in the oral program for 6 months and she has gained 2 years worth of language, in those 6 months! She now no longer just has words, but she is getting LANGUAGE from speech as well. For example, I was sitting on the couch and Miss Kat was about 4 feet away from me, playing on the floor (no signs, can't see my lips) and I asked her "What animal has wings AND can swim?" She thought pretty hard, and repeated back to herself "wings and swimming..." and then she got it, "Duck!". So she is not just picking up a few words, she is using and processing spoken language for higher level thinking.

Right now we are doing sort of the opposite of your suggestion. We are emphasising spoken language at school, and doing ASL at home. We have playdates with her Deaf friends, we go to Deaf community events and we attend a Deaf church.
 
spoken language is equally as forbidden as ASL is in the oral class.
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I find that hard to believe. Unless you are referring to hearing teachers who don't want to use ASL or ASL class.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
I find that hard to believe. Unless you are referring to hearing teachers who don't want to use ASL or ASL class.
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No. Spoken language is forbidden at our bi-bi school. A child is treated exactly the same for speaking as the kids are for signing at our oral school.
 
the window for fluent spoken language begins closing at age 8
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That can't be true because I went to school with Vietnamese kids who were in honors English after being in the States only a couple of years. They weren't fluent when they arrived in the U.S.
 
sallylou said:
That can't be true because I went to school with Vietnamese kids who were in honors English after being in the States only a couple of years. They weren't fluent when they arrived in the U.S.
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I didn't even learn how to speak until I was 8 or 9. :eek3:

And violet can vouch for the deaf accent... or the lack of.
 
sallylou said:
That can't be true because I went to school with Vietnamese kids who were in honors English after being in the States only a couple of years. They weren't fluent when they arrived in the U.S.
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But they were fluent in *a spoken language*. The auditory portion of their brain worked well. They could hear and process spoken language through the auditory pathways in the brain. They were just learning a new language. I was talking about children who do not use their auditory pathways.
 
sallylou said:
Help me out here! How does this research fit in? It's very interesting because it shows that deaf people get auditory cortex activation from visual input. How does this fit with functional atrophy issues?

http://www.snl-b.salk.edu/pdf/Finney-natureneuro01.pdf
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Not taking sides, but this is like the old research I knew of and it says the auditory gets converted to visual in deaf people.

I miss Jillio.
 
sallylou said:
Help me out here! How does this research fit in? It's very interesting because it shows that deaf people get auditory cortex activation from visual input. How does this fit with functional atrophy issues?

http://www.snl-b.salk.edu/pdf/Finney-natureneuro01.pdf
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That's exactly what I'm talking about. They are not receiving auditory imput so the brain begins using that part of the brain for the visual. So, it is no longer functional for audition.

If you look at PET scans of deaf babies the brains are the same as hearing babies BUT the longer they are profoundly deaf the auditory cortex begins to process visual information in place of auditory, and the brain changes! Kids who get CI's before age 2 have PET scans like hearing kids. They process auditory information in the auditory cortex, NOT visual information.
 
I miss, Jillio, too.

I'm not trying to argue with FJ. I'm trying to figure out the issue.

FJ's child is getting auditory stimulation. Doesn't that make the risk less?

I'm wondering how important it is for me to use remaining hearing with HAs. Is this truly a use it or lose it situation. I don't know. I do know that I'm not crazy about using my HAs. lol

Here's another study that seems to support the functional atrophy idea. It's technical and I don't understand all of it. Can someone better at reading studies explain it to me?

Developmental hearing loss eliminates long-term potentiation in the auditory cortex ? PNAS
 
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