Is oral deaf education really a threat?

[jillio]

As an educator who works in the field of deaf ed, I have to agree because that is how we identify our students with CIs.


That's why I was so against with Fj's definition of children with CIs as "hearing". I had arguments with her about it.

Exactly. It gives a mixed message, and ends in the child not getting the accommodations they need. And it isn't just parents. When the school system asks for the audiogram to document the need for accommodation, they asked for the aided audiogram (functional) and then make their decision of what will be offered based on that. And it is why I caution parents against saying things like, "My child is deaf, but she can hear...."

 

[jillio]

Thought you had an issue with people telling others what they can and can't post?

You come out of the blue and argue with me for who-knows-what reason, contradicting me by insisting that my profoundly deaf daughter is not actually deaf and then complain that I interrupted the discussion? You really are being such a silly woman.

I'm not telling you what you can and cannot post. I am asking you to stop turning every thread into some sort of perceived insult made directly to you.

Actually, you are the one that started the argument over literal levels and functional levels, insisting that they were one and the same. But hey, no matter. Continue on with that belief. The public school system will be happy to educate you.

Just stop taking everything as a personal insult. The vast majority of the time my comments have absolutely nothing to do with you until you attempt to make them about you. Obviously you need to be told how wonderful you are as that is the only thing that you consider "supportive". So okay, I'll support you in your need to be told that you are a perfect parent who has learned more about deafness in a couple of years than anyone before you has ever been able to learn.

 

[GrendelQ]

Actually, you are the one that started the argument over literal levels and functional levels, insisting that they were one and the same. But hey, no matter. Continue on with that belief. The public school system will be happy to educate you.

I stated that my daughter is deaf -- you insisted that she's not and brought up the term "functionally HOH" as a label that should be applied to her. That's a term the public school district that has classified my daughter as deaf doesn't employ.

You obviously feel very strongly that other people's deaf children with CIs should not be considered deaf, and I know that my child is deaf and am very happy with how the school has classified her with regard to the amazing accommodations we're receiving. I don't think that we're going to come to an agreement on this, so why don't we just leave it be.

I agree with DD and think that the bi-bi programs that can support both ASL and English (written and spoken) won't be threatened by av and auditory-oral programs, and can provide amazing opportunities for deaf children who would otherwise be mainstreamed.

 

[deafdyke]

Grendel, in defense of jillo, I think maybe she may have had a tough therapy session with a public school kid or frustration over public school issues, and is taking it out on you. I know you don't and can't really understand since you've gotten great accomondations at Li Li's current placement. Actually wait..Retract that..I know you understand a bit, b/c of your husband being a teacher. But to actually experiance it.....let me just say that I have a feeling that a lot of the kids who are being mainstreamed orally will return to TLC or to a regional dhh program b/c of all the fucking crap with hearing schools.
Personally, I would consider Li Li to be Deaf with aided hoh abilty. If a hoh kid can also be Deaf, then a deaf kid could also be hoh. Except in this case, she has no residual hearing when she doesn't have her device on. There are severe profound deaf kids with HAs who identify as hoh too.
It really is sematics.

and think that the bi-bi programs that can support both ASL and English (written and spoken) won't be threatened by av and auditory-oral programs, and can provide amazing opportunities for deaf children who would otherwise be mainstreamed.

And you know.....MAYBE just maybe some of the parents who chose oral first as an option, might be more open to having their kid learn ASL sooner, since they won't have to worry about taking a few years for their kid's spoken language to develop, like they did in the old days. Unfortunatly, we'll still prolly have a lot of parents who think "oh my kid only needs speech. ASL is just for kids who can't speak well (not taking into account that while oral abilty is awesome, most orally skilled kids are lost beyond one on one situtions.
If Deaf Schools could produce kids who are bilingal in speech and sign, a lot more parents would prolly opt for them!!!

 

[jillio]

I think she's deaf, she's classified for both medical and educatioal purposes as being profoundly deaf. It's only on this board that some think I'm wrong in considering her deaf and that children with CIs should be labeled as hearing or mild or moderate HOH (whatever the level she tests in a booth with CIs on) rather than as deaf children.

Who on this board thinks that it is wrong that you consider your child deaf?

All I am saying is if you consider her deaf, then be consistent in that, particularly when you are dealing with a home school as you will be in the very near future.

You are not the parent that consistently says, "My child is deaf, but she can hear." That is the sort of statement I was saying will result in not getting the services a child needs. And trust me, the mainstream school will indeed attempt to use "functional levels" in determining which accommodations are necessary. I see it all the time, and actually experienced it with my own son. And the workplace is even worse, not to mention SSA and SSDI and BVR.

The only reason you or your child got brought into this discussion was because you objected to my use of literal levels and functional levels without fully understanding what I was saying.

 

[jillio]

Grendel, in defense of jillo, I think maybe she may have had a tough therapy session with a public school kid or frustration over public school issues, and is taking it out on you. I know you don't and can't really understand since you've gotten great accomondations at Li Li's current placement. Actually wait..Retract that..I know you understand a bit, b/c of your husband being a teacher. But to actually experiance it.....let me just say that I have a feeling that a lot of the kids who are being mainstreamed orally will return to TLC or to a regional dhh program b/c of all the fucking crap with hearing schools.
Personally, I would consider Li Li to be Deaf with aided hoh abilty. If a hoh kid can also be Deaf, then a deaf kid could also be hoh. Except in this case, she has no residual hearing when she doesn't have her device on. There are severe profound deaf kids with HAs who identify as hoh too.
It really is sematics.
And you know.....MAYBE just maybe some of the parents who chose oral first as an option, might be more open to having their kid learn ASL sooner, since they won't have to worry about taking a few years for their kid's spoken language to develop, like they did in the old days. Unfortunatly, we'll still prolly have a lot of parents who think "oh my kid only needs speech. ASL is just for kids who can't speak well (not taking into account that while oral abilty is awesome, most orally skilled kids are lost beyond one on one situtions.
If Deaf Schools could produce kids who are bilingal in speech and sign, a lot more parents would prolly opt for them!!!

Nope, not a tougher than usual session, nor am I taking anything out on her. She took exception to my use of the terms "functional" and "literal" levels and made it something personal when it was not even close to that. She simply has not had the experience with the school system yet that would allow her to understand the way those terms are applied and used to deny services. It is in her best interest, and her child's best interest, to be aware of these things, but she will learn it the hard way as long as she continues to discount and argue about everything I say just because it was me who said it. If that's the way she wants to go about it, fine with me. But I thought she was here looking for support. The best support a hearing parent can get is to be aware of the pitfalls ahead.

 

[deafdyke]

All I am saying is if you consider her deaf, then be consistent in that, particularly when you are dealing with a home school as you will be in the very near future.

You are not the parent that consistently says, "My child is deaf, but she can hear." That is the sort of statement I was saying will result in not getting the services a child needs. And trust me, the mainstream school will indeed attempt to use "functional levels" in determining which accommodations are necessary. I see it all the time, and actually experienced it with my own son. And the workplace is even worse, not to mention SSA and SSDI and BVR.

The only reason you or your child got brought into this discussion was because you objected to my use of literal levels and functional levels without fully understanding what I was saying.

Very good post. It does seem that unless a home school is experianced with dhh kids, they try to use the functional hearing level to go " Oh they can function, as a minimal accomondations kid ,they don't need all this "special stuff" and thus deny the student accomondations that could help them REALLY thrive. However, it does seem that Grendel actually GETS it...as she does want to keep Li Li at the Deaf School. Which is AWESOME!!!!!

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted



and from what experience with oral schools are you making those conclusions? Have you worked closely with oral schools for a number of years recently?

and many if not most oral schools are private so they fully have control over when they choose to mainstream a child.

Plenty of experience.

No, they don't.

 

[jillio]

Very good post. It does seem that unless a home school is experianced with dhh kids, they try to use the functional hearing level to go " Oh they can function, as a minimal accomondations kid ,they don't need all this "special stuff" and thus deny the student accomondations that could help them REALLY thrive. However, it does seem that Grendel actually GETS it...as she does want to keep Li Li at the Deaf School. Which is AWESOME!!!!!

Agreed. It is awesome that she wants to keep her daughter at the Deaf School. However, when her child reaches the age that the home school becomes directly involved in deciding placement, she will no doubt have a fight on her hands to accomplish that. It is a fight I fought for my son, it is a fight I have helped other parents fight, and it is a fight that is tough enough that many just give in to the school system. It is easy when all you are concerned with is EI services. The big battle is ahead. Parents need to be prepared for what they are going to encounter. If they wait until the time comes, they will be caught unprepared, and then the time the child spends in the mainstream while the fight goes on becomes longer and longer, creating more educational delays.

 

[GrendelQ]

EI governs up to the age of 3. From 3 on, placement is determined via the home school. I think this is national, but can only speak with certainty to MA requirements.

Li will be entering her 3rd year of educational placement governed by her home school district starting in sept. We've just had the IEP that determines this and the school has committed to and has budgeted for another year: going up to $75k tuition + $20-25k transport when my child turns 5 next month.

Our special Ed director in the home school explained that because placement is already established at a school for the deaf, this will not change throughout elem school unless we choose to change it. This was a pleasant surprise. Especially since there is a child with a brand new CI mainstreamed in the 2nd grade. We don't think there will be any concern until HS, when there will be 8 deaf children all governed by the same regional HS, and 3 of those kids currently attend tlc's soon to close Randolph campus (tc, unlike our campus's bi-bi program)

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted



and from what experience with oral schools are you making those conclusions? Have you worked closely with oral schools for a number of years recently?

and many if not most oral schools are private so they fully have control over when they choose to mainstream a child.

Plenty of experience.

No, they don't.

if you place your child at a private school, the private school absolutely has the right to decide if and when the child is ready to be mainstreamed. They do not have to deal with the public schools at all.

what experience would that be?

 

[posts from hell]

Wirelessly posted



if you place your child at a private school, the private school absolutely has the right to decide if and when the child is ready to be mainstreamed. They do not have to deal with the public schools at all.

what experience would that be?

That makes no sense at all.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted



if you place your child at a private school, the private school absolutely has the right to decide if and when the child is ready to be mainstreamed. They do not have to deal with the public schools at all.

what experience would that be?

That makes no sense at all.

what part doesn't make sense?

if you place a child at a private school they are not required to mainstream a child at a certain level. The child can stay at the private school as long as the school and parent see fit.

 

[jillio]

EI governs up to the age of 3. From 3 on, placement is determined via the home school. I think this is national, but can only speak with certainty to MA requirements.

Li will be entering her 3rd year of educational placement governed by her home school district starting in sept. We've just had the IEP that determines this and the school has committed to and has budgeted for another year: going up to $75k tuition + $20-25k transport when my child turns 5 next month.

Our special Ed director in the home school explained that because placement is already established at a school for the deaf, this will not change throughout elem school unless we choose to change it. This was a pleasant surprise. Especially since there is a child with a brand new CI mainstreamed in the 2nd grade. We don't think there will be any concern until HS, when there will be 8 deaf children all governed by the same regional HS, and 3 of those kids currently attend tlc's soon to close Randolph campus (tc, unlike our campus's bi-bi program)

Glad to hear it. I hope that the administration does not change and have other ideas regarding placement. You certainly have it much easier than the several states I have dealt with.

I'm sure you have said, but don't recall off the top of my head. Li-Li is soon to be 5, correct? Do they have her registered as a pre-K student or a K student?

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted



what part doesn't make sense?



if you place a child at a private school they are not required to mainstream a child at a certain level. The child can stay at the private school as long as the school and parent see fit.

Or until the child gets too old to attend the program. Private oral programs rarely go K-12. The vast majority don't even get a kid to middle school.

As long as YOU are paying the tuition to the private school, what you say is kind of accurate. However, if the home school is paying the tuition for the private placement, they can change placement any time they choose, at any point they choose, including in the middle of a school year.

The experience that includes 25 years of educational advocacy for all types of placements.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted



what part doesn't make sense?



if you place a child at a private school they are not required to mainstream a child at a certain level. The child can stay at the private school as long as the school and parent see fit.

Or until the child gets too old to attend the program. Private oral programs rarely go K-12. The vast majority don't even get a kid to middle school.

As long as YOU are paying the tuition to the private school, what you say is kind of accurate. However, if the home school is paying the tuition for the private placement, they can change placement any time they choose, at any point they choose, including in the middle of a school year.

The experience that includes 25 years of educational advocacy for all types of placements.

as i said, if you have placed your child in a private school (not the iep team) they have full control of when the child is mainstream, which is exactly what i said before and you said no.

 

[deafdyke]

Grendel, that is SO AWESOME that you'll be able to keep her in the program without a huge hassle for elementary. How come they're closing the Randolph campus? That's kind of sad...it was the last remains of Boston School for the Deaf. They prolly had that as an option, since there may have been a sizable Deaf population there. (b/c of the fact that there's usually a lot of Deaf families in areas where there are Deaf Schools)
I do think most dhh kids need a few YEARS (meaning a few years in elementary programs) in a specialized setting (ie either Deaf School or Dhh program) before even thinking of mainstreaming.

jillo, I thought there were NO K-12 private oral schools? There are a handful of the middle school ones....and I remember from reading Volta Voices, that they used to REALLY push the Middle School at Clarke program.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

dd, this has already been discussed on this thread. There are a few schools that go through around age 13 (or eighth grade) and clarke goes all the way to 12th.

 

[CSign]

Wirelessly posted



what part doesn't make sense?



if you place a child at a private school they are not required to mainstream a child at a certain level. The child can stay at the private school as long as the school and parent see fit.
Or until the child gets too old to attend the program. Private oral programs rarely go K-12. The vast majority don't even get a kid to middle school.

As long as YOU are paying the tuition to the private school, what you say is kind of accurate. However, if the home school is paying the tuition for the private placement, they can change placement any time they choose, at any point they choose, including in the middle of a school year.

The experience that includes 25 years of educational advocacy for all types of placements." Jillio

The school cannot unilaterally change placement without parental consent. They can say they want to change it if they believe current placement is inappropriate. At that point parents can consent and change placement, or the child can "stay put" until the matter is resolved through mediation or due process.

For all the parents out there, you are an equal member of the IEP team and you and your child have rights. The school CANNOT unilaterally change placement without your consent.

 

[posts from hell]

Wirelessly posted



what part doesn't make sense?

if you place a child at a private school they are not required to mainstream a child at a certain level. The child can stay at the private school as long as the school and parent see fit.

If I paid for my child to go to a private school - i'd expect them to stay there becuz im paying for it. My money isnt going to them just so they can say "oh hey, your kid is ready for the mainstream!" one day....

And usually the reason people put students in private schools is because they usually are better than the mainstream as well.