How to reform dorm system at deaf schools?

[deafdyke]

I know I accidently pushed some buttons with my last posting, and I am sorry. I DO agree that most little kids/ lower elementary kids should attend either Deaf Schools as day students or attend a Dhh program at a mainstream school.Day programs weren't generally available pre 1974. We have moved past "shipping all deaf kids to the res school." If a kid does the dorm, they should be upper elementary or middle/high schoolers. But there's still the fact that there might be little kids in kind of unusual situtions, where day programming isn't possible. There's also the fact that going off and living in a dorm could help with independent living with older kids. Let's put that out there....I think almost everyone agrees that the best thing is to have kids at home. I think we can all agree that in the past the dorm system may have been really bad. It was basicly an insistution. Some of them were OK....but others were basicly a Deaf Blackboard Jungle. It was like that for almost EVERY special needs insistution (most famously seen in the facillites for the mentally handicapped) Heck, even the hearing boarding schools were bad in the dorms. That's why we now have very strict rules and regulations about dorms, if a school has dorms. (one of my friends actually teaches at a residental school, although not a deaf school. He says that the rules are REALLY too strict. Granted he tends to work with drug and alchohol abusers as well as kids who aren't exactly stable. But, some things like he got written up for a hug instigated by a student, and he can't even be with a student even if there are other kids around, seem a little too extreme. I mean we are talking about residental schools....you do tend to develop friendships with teachers, dorm workers, and even the public safety folks)
Things have changed from pre 1974. conditions.....and even from 30 or 25 years ago. Actually, I was reading a book for siblings of special needs kids. It said of residental settings for adults. "Some people will object to that type of living arrangement. The author said "I believe those settings are needed by some adults with disabilties and that we need to continue a variety of options and remain open to different models" Sound familiar? Heck, things have changed a lot from just twenty years ago. One thing that may have impacted dorm situtions is that kids with significent behavorial issues(not related to low communication abilty) may have been thrown in with the non disabled kids. They now have speciailized programs for kids with significent behavorial issues.
What else could we do to improve the dorms?

 

[TXgolfer]

Dorms seem cruel to me.....

 

[deafdyke]

Txgolfer, as I've said before, I do think that dorms should only be "last resort" placement, and mostly used for middle and high schoolers, as a kind of independant living thing and a refugee away from really horrible middle and high schools. Also, nowadays, virtually all kids go home for the weekend. Hearing kids live in dorms if they go off to prep school. Some kids with severe disabilties (or even kids with emotional issues or drug and alcholol issues) live in dorms.
What about dorms seem cruel to you?

 

[Griffin]

Dorms seem cruel to me.....

Although this is not a close friend, my girlfriend's coworker recently worked very hard to send her daughter (14) to DC so that she could get a better education. We live in NJ and they weren't able to find a good school that met the daughter's needs. The whole transition has been really hard on the mom, but they all seem to think the trade-offs are worth it.

On the other hand, at least in hearing colleges, small dorms can sometimes have a pecking order. Which sucks for anybody.

On the whole though, residential schools tend to be a very weird and alienating experience. I know what you mean about hugs not allowed and you're not supposed to get too close to anyone (ie friends, teachers, volunteers etc). A friend of mine works as a high school teacher and as a college instructor, and indicates that it's pretty much that way everywhere. When you have helicopter parents everywhere and parents suing schools uncomfortably often, it makes sense in a way.

 

[Mrs Bucket]

Deafdyke, if I can share an honest opinion about the other thread and this one as well, it was a good thing that the other thread was closed.

As you should know, deaf education & residential dormitory life differs from one person to another. Not everyone shares the same memories and the wonderful experiences as others do.

This is where I really caution you, DD, to use respect when you pry people with so much questions as some of the questions can be quite cumbersome. I have seen it from my parents' eyes and from their friends' eyes as well. I get my answers directly from what they share with us.

 

[Banjo]

Deafdyke, if I can share an honest opinion about the other thread and this one as well, it was a good thing that the other thread was closed.

As you should know, deaf education & residential dormitory life differs from one person to another. Not everyone shares the same memories and the wonderful experiences as others do.

This is where I really caution you, DD, to use respect when you pry people with so much questions as some of the questions can be quite cumbersome. I have seen it from my parents' eyes and from their friends' eyes as well. I get my answers directly from what they share with us.

 

[deafgal001]

Wirelessly posted

They already reform it the best they could. Its more important is to do what's best for the child and that's with her parents.

 

[deafdyke]

As you should know, deaf education & residential dormitory life differs from one person to another. Not everyone shares the same memories and the wonderful experiences as others do.

This is where I really caution you, DD, to use respect when you pry people with so much questions as some of the questions can be quite cumbersome. I have seen it from my parents' eyes and from their friends' eyes as well. I get my answers directly from what they share with us.

And I do understand that. I am not one of those folks who romanticize residental schools. In fact, as I have repeatly stated, i do think most kids should start out in formal day programs. I think actually that a lot of people misunderstood my orgional posting. I was asking if maybe the res programs might be able to fill in the gaps for kids in unusual situtions, that's all. I was not saying " Yes, let's ship them all off to res schools." As you said, it varies tremendously. A kid from a suburb where they have a good dhh program wouldn't nessarily need or want to go off to res school. But say a kid from Middle Of No Where where the education for even hearing kids is bad, might benifit from going off to res school. I am VERY pro child centered when it comes to education. Every kid is different. I mean saying "every kid should go off to res school" is just as bad as saying "every kid should be minimal accomondations mainstreamed"
I was simply hypothesizing that maybe res school might be a good placement for some kids. After all, res school hasn't even been the norm for about 40 years now.

 

[deafdyke]

And Mrs. Bucket, I do understand that not everyone had great memories of the dorms.
But it does seem like a lot of the problems were due to Willowbrook style insistution problems. I'm simply arguing for a contiuum of placement, and a "every kid is different" approach. Especially since the mainstream is basicly one size fits all. Especially around middle/high school. I think you might be forgetting that not all kids have the advantage of stable/functional families or access to good quality dhh programs. I am looking at this from a sociological perspective. Say a dhh kid was from a really poor stereotypical "First Nations" tribe in the Yukon Territory or Nunvuk, where even the hearing kids got a crappy education, and where eating Lysol sandwiches was commonplace Or say, they were from a stereotypical inner city sitution (unmarried mom with not great resources, and not a great track record of stable realtionships or stable decisions) Wouldn't those kids do better in a residental education sitution? They would be away from the really bad influences, and also have the advantage of accessing staff and teachers who could have a huge impact on them.
I do think that as much as possible kids should be placed in local formal dhh programs. You and Banjo are from Canada. I know that it's very much "either or" placement where you guys are from. (meaning res schools or local solotaire mainstreaming) In the US we have regional dhh programs/magnet schools. I think that might be what is causing some cross cultural understanding problems. I do think that most kids can be served by regional dhh ed formal programs...and I support that 100%! Many of the formal programs give the advantage of teachers who are familiar with teaching Dhh kids, but also the advantages of the mainstream.....and that rocks! Heck, I'm even pro solotaire mainstreaming if the kid demonstrates that they can do well (both academicly and socially) that way. But, I also think that there might be some cases where residental ed might be a good placement/choice. Make sense now? I am an advocate for the entire continum of placement!

 

[Mrs Bucket]

I am looking at this from a sociological perspective. Say a dhh kid was from a really poor stereotypical "First Nations" tribe in the Yukon Territory or Nunvuk, where even the hearing kids got a crappy education, and where eating Lysol sandwiches was commonplace

Ehh?! Lysol sandwiches, where do you come up with those ridiculous statements? Please refrain from making such ridiculous statements until you can back them up with concrete evidence. You insult my country and our education by making those blantant and bold statements.

You and Banjo are from Canada. I know that it's very much "either or" placement where you guys are from.

You are forgetting so many other Canadian members that contribute to this forum.

The "either/or" placement you described is wrong, again, you need to do your research. It is not just the Deaf school or mainstreaming. We have other alternatives here in Canada.

Please don't insult our country and our education system.

 

[shel90]

As someone who works with dorm students...in my 8 years, I have had only one student who hated them. All the others loved them.

I dont know if that makes me biased or not but in my personal opinion, that tells me a lot when any of my or the other teacher's students have fits about not going to the dorms.

I guess it is sticky for me to voice my opinion as I have never personally experienced what it is like to live in the dorms. I posted because maybe the dorms where I work at has been reformed?

I wasnt there back in the 50s, 60s, or 70s when dorms were terrible but many of my friends who where there grew up there. Some loved them and some hated them.

 

[deafdyke]

Ehh?! Lysol sandwiches, where do you come up with those ridiculous statements? Please refrain from making such ridiculous statements until you can back them up with concrete evidence. You insult my country and our education by making those blantant and bold statements.

Mrs. Bucket, I was not insulting your country or the education available there. Are you not aware of the severe problems faced by First Nations peoples? Not Canadian people in general. But First Nations. Amerind people also face very simlair issues. I am not bashing them or anything. Simply using that as an example of a not so good home sitution, that might be helped by a kid living at a school. Not every kid has the advantage of good local schools/programs or good living situtions. Check out this program for HEARING inner city kids to attend BOARDING schools or a dorm arrangment: Ambitious students of color seek aid at A Better Chance - The Boston Globe

The "either/or" placement you described is wrong, again, you need to do your research. It is not just the Deaf school or mainstreaming. We have other alternatives here in Canada.

Granted, I'm not advocating throwing them from the frying pan into the fire or anything. There can be significent issues with state run specialized schools. I totally agree! It doesn't surprise me that not savory issues with the Deaf Schools may have cropped up. But, the key to dealing with those issues is reforming/fixing them. They are not exclusive to Deaf Schools and certainly not exclusive to dorms either. I do understand. You and Banjo are saying that the dorms might be superfically OK, but there's stuff in the background that isn't exactly desirable. So REFORM and fix the problems. US Deaf Schools (and other residental schools. There are blind res schools, autistic res schools, res schools for learning disabilites and substance abuse issues as well as boarding schools. Heck there's even still a public boarding school here in the US in Oregon.) have reformed and fixed problems that may have happened in the dorms. Did you know that there were really bad issues with prestigious dorm schools like Eton and other "name brand schools? I AM NOT saying that you guys don't know what you're talking about or anything. You're right, there are prolly significent issues in the dorms....but deaf schools in the US encountered those problems, and REFORMED them (otherwise they wouldn't still be around. There were some really bad issues back in the day)

You are forgetting so many other Canadian members that contribute to this forum.

The "either/or" placement you described is wrong, again, you need to do your research. It is not just the Deaf school or mainstreaming. We have other alternatives here in Canada.

Um I do know that there are many other Canadian members. What does that have to do with anything? And, I do know that the options for dhh education in Canada are very province dependent. If I recall correctly there was a Canadian mom freaking out about Deaf program placement b/c there wasn't a lot available. I also know of a hoh (a just hoh) kid in an Alberta high school who is in a life skills class (the kind for intellectucally disabled and autistic kids) b/c there's no other placements besides life skills or the Deaf School. The programs do seem to be available, but they seem to be very province dependant or very scattered and hard to get to, for kids who may not live in the city or whatever.

 

[deafdyke]

No response Banjo and Mrs. Bucket?
I am not and never will advocate for sending ALL kids off to res schools.
I simply think it needs to be an option in some cases. Besides, you're not helping...ALL you're doing is bashing the system and not offering any solutions. You guys are thinking like the intellectucally disabled activists who thought that removing intellectucally disabled people from insistutions would end abuse. We still have major issues with group homes and stuff like that. The abuse didn't end there. The answer is to reform the system.
I do have to say that I think a lot of the abuse from the old days was due to many reasons......like for example, they didn't have programs for kids who may have been mentally ill or distrubed. So those kids were thrown in with regular kids. Now they have programs specificly for mentally ill/disturbed kids.
Also, it wasn't just limited to Deaf Schools. Remember the Willowbrook incident?

 

[Oceanbreeze]

No response Banjo and Mrs. Bucket?
I am not and never will advocate for sending ALL kids off to res schools.
I simply think it needs to be an option in some cases. Besides, you're not helping...ALL you're doing is bashing the system and not offering any solutions. You guys are thinking like the intellectucally disabled activists who thought that removing intellectucally disabled people from insistutions would end abuse. We still have major issues with group homes and stuff like that. The abuse didn't end there. The answer is to reform the system.
I do have to say that I think a lot of the abuse from the old days was due to many reasons......like for example, they didn't have programs for kids who may have been mentally ill or distrubed. So those kids were thrown in with regular kids. Now they have programs specificly for mentally ill/disturbed kids.
Also, it wasn't just limited to Deaf Schools. Remember the Willowbrook incident?

Give it a rest, DD. Honestly, I think Mrs Bucket is right in one respect. You need to do research and learn to understand what you are reading. Again, I know you are advocating for what you believe in, and, I admire you for that. However, Mrs Bucket is also an advocate; and probably has a better understanding of what happens in her province then you do.

Also, on a personal note, MB is quite ill. She has chosen to take a break from AD to reduce her stress. She will reply when she's ready or if she chooses to.

Now as for res schools, how can you make them better? You make sure that safety comes first.

1. Institute a policy that ALL are required to follow.
2. Conduct background checks for ALL staff. If something pops up in someone's background, don't hire that person.
3. Have day programs available in all deaf residential placements for those students who may be too young to attend year round.
4. Have an open door policy so that parents can come and observe what is happening at the school.


These are off the top of my head...

Now as far as the education goes, simply adopt a curriculum that is on par with the mainstream schools education. I know that MSSD adopted it's state's curriculum. Therefore, it's on par with every other school in the state. This should be happening with ALL deaf schools.

Also, if you have a child who is learning disabled, that needs to be tested for and dealt with. Same with any mental disorders that may be present with a kid.

 

[Banjo]

Basically, there is practically no way to reform the system to the point where i would be satisfied with it.

Sorry.

Besides, I have a life. So I don't always have the time to read every thread here.

 

[Royale]

:facepalm:

Some schools for the Deaf have adjusted their dorms into home-like settings. A few years ago I visited Sir James Whitney School for the Deaf in Belleville and the dean of residence whom I had known for a long time gave me a tour of newly-renovated dormitory. I was so impressed by what I saw because it was like a home.

 

[deafdyke]

Thank you Royale!

Basically, there is practically no way to reform the system to the point where i would be satisfied with it.

Why do you say that?
I do think there are some bad dorm system schools, but I think you're missing that a lot of the same bad stuff happens in non dorm schools, but it's covered up. The dorm can be a nessarily evil...and I have a feeling you're one of those people who are "kids should be at home with their families!"
Not everyone comes from an emotionally healthy family, or even the best local educational options.
Heck, the dorms could be a good thing for teens.....they could have it set up as an independent living set up. A lot of dhh (or otherwise disabled teens) tend to be SUPER SHELTERED by their parents and so may not have a lot of independence or life skills.

 

[Banjo]

Thank you Royale!
Why do you say that?
I do think there are some bad dorm system schools, but I think you're missing that a lot of the same bad stuff happens in non dorm schools, but it's covered up. The dorm can be a nessarily evil...and I have a feeling you're one of those people who are "kids should be at home with their families!"
Not everyone comes from an emotionally healthy family, or even the best local educational options.
Heck, the dorms could be a good thing for teens.....they could have it set up as an independent living set up. A lot of dhh (or otherwise disabled teens) tend to be SUPER SHELTERED by their parents and so may not have a lot of independence or life skills.

Because it's true. Hence the expression, "There is no place like home."

Once again, you are resorting to the "non-dorm" bit of yours. We are talking about the dormitories here.

How do you know if a person is super sheltered? How do you know a person is being abused by its parents? How do you know they are living in unhealthy environment? How do you know these? Are you a social worker?

C'mon, get real.

I learned much, much more about life and the real world at home than I would ever learn by living at a school. The residential students I know, most of them still haven't pursued a career, still live at home, living on welfare and etc.

The day students I know, most of them are living on their own, they have families, they have full-time jobs and more.

 

[deafdyke]

Once again, you are resorting to the "non-dorm" bit of yours. We are talking about the dormitories here.

How do you know if a person is super sheltered? How do you know a person is being abused by its parents? How do you know they are living in unhealthy environment? How do you know these? Are you a social worker?

C'mon, get real.

I learned much, much more about life and the real world at home than I would ever learn by living at a school. The residential students I know, most of them still haven't pursued a career, still live at home, living on welfare and etc.

The day students I know, most of them are living on their own, they have families, they have full-time jobs and more

Banjo, I agree with you. If at all possible kids should live with their families.
But I think you are so anti dorm, that you're missing that there might be a lot of situtions where kids might benifit from living in the dorm. Ever see what life is like on a First Nations reservation? Ever see what life is like for an inner city single mother?
Actually here in the US, Kansas School for the Deaf and Lexington (which is mostly a day school) offer residental programming for kids whose home lives inhibit their learning. There may be some others. But I do know that many dorm schools (and even blind schools, which primarly serve multihandicapped kids) have formal independent living programs for senoirs to practice what it's like to live on their own. MSD does, so does MSSD and many others.
Maybe a big part of the problem is that Canada may view Deaf Schools as custodal/care home/insistutional placements, rather then as places where kids can discover themselves and become independent.
Disabled kids in general ARE super sheltered.

 

[Bottesini]

Banjo, I agree with you. If at all possible kids should live with their families.
But I think you are so anti dorm, that you're missing that there might be a lot of situtions where kids might benifit from living in the dorm. Ever see what life is like on a First Nations reservation? Ever see what life is like for an inner city single mother?
Actually here in the US, Kansas School for the Deaf and Lexington (which is mostly a day school) offer residental programming for kids whose home lives inhibit their learning. There may be some others. But I do know that many dorm schools (and even blind schools, which primarly serve multihandicapped kids) have formal independent living programs for senoirs to practice what it's like to live on their own. MSD does, so does MSSD and many others.
Maybe a big part of the problem is that Canada may view Deaf Schools as custodal/care home/insistutional placements, rather then as places where kids can discover themselves and become independent.
Disabled kids in general ARE super sheltered.

In the bolded statement of your post, think, please! There used to be a system of schools that was very bad at ripping kids from their families.

That certainly is no persuasive argument for residential schools.