Do Jews believe in Jesus and still be Jewish?

[Throwstones]

I am myself born jewish and do believe in Messiah Jesus therefore, I am still Jewish!

 

[pek1]

I am myself born jewish and do believe in Messiah Jesus therefore, I am still Jewish!

Actually, Throwstones, according to Scripture, you are a "New Jew" as are all Christians. The Jews as in the day of old are no longer called such, as they have chosen to reject Jesus as the Messiah. Christians are the Jews now.

 

[Teresh]

I am myself born jewish and do believe in Messiah Jesus therefore, I am still Jewish!

You're a Jew who does not practice Judaism. You're an apostate.

One does not need to be Jewish (religiously) to be a member of the Jewish people, but a Jew who does not respect Jewish law and custom is, practically speaking, no better than the average disrespectful Gentile.

Actually, Throwstones, according to Scripture, you are a "New Jew" as are all Christians. The Jews as in the day of old are no longer called such, as they have chosen to reject Jesus as the Messiah. Christians are the Jews now.

Heh. Christians are no more a chosen people than anyone else. But it's a fun theology to think the Jews forwent their covenent by rejecting a false Messiah claimant, so why don't we all do it!

 

[hottiedeafboi]

If jewish found the truth of Jesus Christ, they can be apostasy toward judiasm, but not to God. Bec jews has been atoned thru the blood of the Lamb, perfect sacrificial Lamb soo similar as of OT, but best of best, without blemish just like the symbolic of God shown list of what religious leader should do for atonement for sins and what the person must bring for their own sin atonements. Its a perfect picture.

 

[Reba]

0000

 

[Teresh]

If jewish found the truth of Jesus Christ, they can be apostasy toward judiasm, but not to God.

Yes, because Christians, Muslims and Baha'i all worship the same God that the Jews do.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

Yes, because Christians, Muslims and Baha'i all worship the same God that the Jews do.

Exactly, but, did you know somewhere along the way, after Jesus acension, there will be perverted and decieved many and anger judiasm and some jews, bec what has happen witht edisciples and the tesitmonies and even Paul used to be one of them. As the gospel goes, many many have not heard, since disciples and followers of Jesus spread, tho thru Islamic world and also barbaric world and numbers of ways. The world is always do at best to keep people to see the Truth and not only that, I know we discussed that before and not want to debate again of this issues. As we see the enlighten the Word of God which so perfect parallel like plumbline shows perfect fit who Christ Jesus is, its not a matter of religion, its a matter what God has planned. Judiasm is perfect description as in Isaiah, "self righteousness is like a filthy rags". Why? Sin (position) still stained and no way to make it right. As many bragged of their righteousness when Jesus points out each of what each has missed the mark of and Jesus exposed each of their missed mark, bec He foreknew them as much He foreknew us.

 

[sculleywr]

You're a Jew who does not practice Judaism. You're an apostate.

One does not need to be Jewish (religiously) to be a member of the Jewish people, but a Jew who does not respect Jewish law and custom is, practically speaking, no better than the average disrespectful Gentile.



Heh. Christians are no more a chosen people than anyone else. But it's a fun theology to think the Jews forwent their covenent by rejecting a false Messiah claimant, so why don't we all do it!

Jeremiah prophecied a new covenant. They forwent the new covenant given by God.

I have been doing a little research on Judaism and other religions, including the New Age. You do not truly represent the majority of Jews. Your belief in mitzvots and working toward heaven is PATENTLY New Age thinking. The only difference is, instead of becoming angels, your "Karma," Mitzvot, points, whatever, gets you to heaven. I have been reading the book Angels, Angels, Angels by Phil Phillips, and have found what he said to be true. If the majority of Jews are what you believe them to be, than they have fallen hook, line, and sinker for the bait the New Agers have tossed to them. Technically, by the scriptures, you are an apostate by this measuring stick.

 

[Reba]

Yes, because Christians, Muslims and Baha'i all worship the same God that the Jews do.

Christians worship the Triune God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They pray to the Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus thru the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Reba]

One does not need to be Jewish (religiously) to be a member of the Jewish people, but a Jew who does not respect Jewish law and custom is, practically speaking, no better than the average disrespectful Gentile.

Does the apostate category include atheist Jews, too, or does that apply just to Christian Jews?

 

[Teresh]

Jeremiah prophecied a new covenant. They forwent the new covenant given by God.

Cite? The Torah states that the covenant with Israel is eternal, just as is the covenant with Noah. Under the Covenant of Noach, you are bound to the Noachide Laws.

If there is a "new covenant" at all it does not pre-empt the old one.

I have been doing a little research on Judaism and other religions, including the New Age.

New Age isn't a religion...

You do not truly represent the majority of Jews. Your belief in mitzvots and working toward heaven is PATENTLY New Age thinking.

It's also the perspective in Conservative and Reform Judaism. What sources are you using for your study of Judaism?

The only difference is, instead of becoming angels, your "Karma," Mitzvot, points, whatever, gets you to heaven.

I don't believe in the existence of a heaven at least not in the sense that you do.

I have been reading the book Angels, Angels, Angels by Phil Phillips, and have found what he said to be true. If the majority of Jews are what you believe them to be, than they have fallen hook, line, and sinker for the bait the New Agers have tossed to them.

I haven't read that book. What is it about?

Wicca, Neopaganism and the like do not suit me. I do not have a problem with the people who practice that, but personally it's not for me. Buddhist meditation is something I have an appreciation for and do on occassion.

Aside from acknowledging the existence of God, Judaism has little in the way of dogma, so it is entirely possible to be Jewish religious speaking while still incorporating some practices of other religions that do not contradict Judaism's core teachings. Buddhism is an example of a practice that can be very easily be integrated into Judaism as Buddhism has no specific dogma.

Technically, by the scriptures, you are an apostate by this measuring stick.

I'm not a Jew, so to say I'm an apostate of Judaism would be false in a literalistic sense. That said, being Jewish in terms of religion is a bit more complex than you realise. There are many different levels of observance and different movements within the overall community which have their own different views on what Judaism is and what it means to be Jewish.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

Hey sculley, that's awesome , today, when I asked the Lord like beside os isaiah 53 or others about Triune God which I strongly believe, but its more as of showing me deeper, as you said about new covenant, hehe, that's what God revealed me thru that, in Jeremiah 31:31-40, when God spoken to Jeremiah about jis covenant. How awesome He is

 

[pek1]

Yes, because Christians, Muslims and Baha'i all worship the same God that the Jews do.

Not even close, Teresh. That's like saying that you and I have the same biological parents.

 

[pek1]

Christians worship the Triune God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They pray to the Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus thru the power of the Holy Spirit.

And, might I add, the other "deities" that Teresh mentioned are still dead and in their graves, while Jesus Christ rose from the dead in bodily form.

 

[pek1]

Exactly, but, did you know somewhere . . .

hottiedeafboi,

I cut you off because what you said is NOT true. There's no shred of evidence in what you said.

 

[pek1]

Hey sculley, that's awesome , today, when I asked the Lord like beside os isaiah 53 or others about Triune God which I strongly believe, but its more as of showing me deeper, as you said about new covenant, hehe, that's what God revealed me thru that, in Jeremiah 31:31-40, when God spoken to Jeremiah about jis covenant. How awesome He is

The New Covenant is the New Testament and it fulfills 100 percent of the prophecies in the Old Testament that the Jews were promised.

 

[sculleywr]

Cite? The Torah states that the covenant with Israel is eternal, just as is the covenant with Noah. Under the Covenant of Noach, you are bound to the Noachide Laws.

If there is a "new covenant" at all it does not pre-empt the old one.

The New Covenant does not pre-empt the old covenant, it improves and fulfills the old covenant, making no need for blood sacrifices or prayer through a priest, fulfilling the prophecies. The New Covenant requires a blood offering to usher it in, in the same way that the old covenant did (the first blood sacrifice of a lamb, killed by God Himself when Adam and Eve were thrown from the garden of Eden. The blood sacrifice ushering in the New Covenant is the blood of a perfect, sinless man. That man is Jesus Christ, born of a virgin (impossible without God), doing miracles and healing people, all the while giving the credit to God (again, not possible without supernatural aid, and not going to be done by demons because they will not do something that undermines the plans of Satan, so it is then God who can be identified), submitting to the most embarrassing death of those days without putting up so much as a fight, rising from the dead (EXTREMELY IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT GOD), and ascending into heaven (impossible without God). His death and ressurection fulfilled the prophecy that Adam and Eve's kin would "crush the serpent's head." Jesus, through His death on the cross, yanked the keys of sin and death from Satan's hands, and summarily destroyed the ease with which Satan could accomplish his goal of bringing as many people into hell with him as possible.

Jeremiah 31:31-32
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

the hebrew passage here, so you will know that my source has done it's research:

yowm bow' n@'um Y@hovah karath chadash b@riyth bayith Yisra'el bayith Y@huwdah
b@riyth karath 'ab yowm chazaq yad yatsa' 'erets Mitsrayim b@riyth parar ba`al n@'um Y@hovah

Now, tell me where the translation of these Hebrew words is wrong.

New Age isn't a religion...

A.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Need I say......more?

I don't believe in the existence of a heaven at least not in the sense that you do.

Again, ask Rabbi Shagra Simmons, Heaven is real. Here are some snippets of his answer to the questions of heaven, hell, and the afterlife:

Not all souls merit Gehenom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehenom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example.

Heaven is where the soul experiences the greatest possible pleasure - the feeling of closeness to G-d. Of course not all souls experience that to the same degree. It's like going to a symphony concert. Some tickets are front-row center; others are back in the bleachers. Where your seat is located is based on the merit of your good deeds - e.g. giving charity, caring for others, prayer.

A second factor in heaven is your understanding of the environment. Just like at the concert, a person can have great seats but no appreciation of what's going on. If a person spends their lifetime elevating the soul and becoming sensitive to spiritual realities (through Torah study), then that will translate into unimaginable pleasure in heaven. On the other hand, if
life was all about pizza and football, well, that can get pretty boring for eternity.

The existence of the afterlife is not stated explicitly in the Torah itself, because as human beings we have to focus on our task in this world. Though awareness of an eternal reward can also be an effective motivator.

For further study, see Maimonides' Foundations of the Torah, "The Way of G-d" by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto, and the commentary of Nachmanides to Leviticus 18:29.

I haven't read that book. What is it about?

Wicca, Neopaganism and the like do not suit me. I do not have a problem with the people who practice that, but personally it's not for me. Buddhist meditation is something I have an appreciation for and do on occassion.

Aside from acknowledging the existence of God, Judaism has little in the way of dogma, so it is entirely possible to be Jewish religious speaking while still incorporating some practices of other religions that do not contradict Judaism's core teachings. Buddhism is an example of a practice that can be very easily be integrated into Judaism as Buddhism has no specific dogma.

It is about how to counter the New Age religious movement, its plan, and its strategies. What is its plan, you may ask? Assimilation of all religious beliefs (except for Christianity and the loyal Jews) into a one world religion, and destruction of the followers of Christianity and the Jews unwilling to change. You would be one of the ones they would overlook, as you have already fallen into their trap. And don't think that I am acting the victim here, you can check out their books. The plan was first explined by Meishu Sama, a New Age Pioneer from Japan. The New Age Religion will become a revival of the religion of Ancient Babylon (Who, by the way, drove the Israelites from their home in Israel). Any who do not conform, according to Sama, will be eliminated. This elimination is deemed neccessary to purify the world of the "negative vibrations." You have only one step to go before you are squarely in their religion, you would have to fall into their trap and claim that YOU, and not God, are in control of the angels around you, and that you can channel them through one of the practices you perform. You are, hopefully unbeknownst to you, opening yourself up to a spiritual experience of an unwanted kind everytime you practice buddhist rituals. If you look up what people were doing before they were possessed by demons, you will find that they were meditating in order to bring their brains into an alpha state of brain waves and experience a spiritual awakening. This is the only wrong way sign that you will see along the way, so I implore you to not continue these practices for your own safety.

I'm not a Jew, so to say I'm an apostate of Judaism would be false in a literalistic sense. That said, being Jewish in terms of religion is a bit more complex than you realise. There are many different levels of observance and different movements within the overall community which have their own different views on what Judaism is and what it means to be Jewish.

And the Bible has a different POV than you do. Whatever happens, whatever people say, I use the Bible as my spiritual compass.

 

[Teresh]

Not even close, Teresh. That's like saying that you and I have the same biological parents.

O_o

No, it's acknowledgement that Christians and Jews are not the only followers of the One God... If anything, Muslims and Baha'i have a better understanding of that concept than the Christians do, as they don't believe in the trinity.

And, might I add, the other "deities" that Teresh mentioned are still dead and in their graves, while Jesus Christ rose from the dead in bodily form.

I haven't mentioned any other "deities". I'm a monotheist. There is only one God.

And, might I add, the "deity" Jesus of Nazareth is dead (and buried)?

The New Covenant does not pre-empt the old covenant, it improves and fulfills the old covenant, making no need for blood sacrifices or prayer through a priest, fulfilling the prophecies.

That's the Christian explanation for why they rejected Jewish tradition and Jewish law, yes... That the sacrifice of Jesus renders the previous 1500 years of history null and void.

That man is Jesus Christ, born of a virgin (impossible without God), doing miracles and healing people, all the while giving the credit to God (again, not possible without supernatural aid, and not going to be done by demons because they will not do something that undermines the plans of Satan, so it is then God who can be identified), submitting to the most embarrassing death of those days without putting up so much as a fight, rising from the dead (EXTREMELY IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT GOD), and ascending into heaven (impossible without God). His death and ressurection fulfilled the prophecy that Adam and Eve's kin would "crush the serpent's head." Jesus, through His death on the cross, yanked the keys of sin and death from Satan's hands, and summarily destroyed the ease with which Satan could accomplish his goal of bringing as many people into hell with him as possible.

Um... yeah. You have your beliefs, I have mine. Jesus, in the scope of my theology, is not who you claim him to be.

Jeremiah 31:31-32
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Indeed... With Israel athe house of Judah. By that logic, all Christians should be Jews and that to be a Christian one must first be a Jew. We both know that most Christians are gentiles, so either you're basing your theology on a self-deception or you somehow think Israel means something other than Israel in which case you're misinterpreting.

yowm bow' n@'um Y@hovah karath chadash b@riyth bayith Yisra'el bayith Y@huwdah
b@riyth karath 'ab yowm chazaq yad yatsa' 'erets Mitsrayim b@riyth parar ba`al n@'um Y@hovah

I'm going to suggest you learn how to transliterate Hebrew properly. This is unreadable.

The text, in Hebrew:

לֹא
לֹא כַבְּרִית, אֲשֶׁר כָּרַתִּי אֶת-אֲבוֹתָם, בְּיוֹם הֶחֱזִיקִי בְיָדָם, לְהוֹצִיאָם מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם: אֲשֶׁר-הֵמָּה הֵפֵרוּ אֶת-בְּרִיתִי, וְאָנֹכִי בָּעַלְתִּי בָם--נְאֻם-יְהוָה.
לב
כִּי זֹאת הַבְּרִית אֲשֶׁר אֶכְרֹת אֶת-בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל אַחֲרֵי הַיָּמִים הָהֵם, נְאֻם-יְהוָה, נָתַתִּי אֶת-תּוֹרָתִי בְּקִרְבָּם, וְעַל-לִבָּם אֶכְתְּבֶנָּה; וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם לֵאלֹהִים, וְהֵמָּה יִהְיוּ-לִי לְעָם.
​

Transliteration:
31 Lo khab'rit, asher karati et-avotam, b'yom hechaziqi b'yadam l'hotziam meeretz mitz'rayim: asher-hemah hefero et-b'riti, v'anokhi baal'ti vam--n'um-YHVH.

32 Ki zot hab'rit asher ekh'rit et-beit Yisrael acharei hayamim hahem n'um-YHVH, natati et-torati b'qir'bam, v'al-libam ekh't'venah v'hayiti lahem lelohaim, v'hemah yih'yo-li l'am.

Now, tell me where the translation of these Hebrew words is wrong.

The translation isn't wrong, only your interpretation of it.

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Need I say......more?

There's a big difference between a belief and a religion. Still, by that definition, Christianity is just as New Age as any other religion.

Again, ask Rabbi Shagra Simmons, Heaven is real. Here are some snippets of his answer to the questions of heaven, hell, and the afterlife...

You speak as if there's consensus. There isn't, something you'll probably never grasp. One rabbi believes in the existence of a heaven. There's many that don't. Indeed, there are rabbis that don't even believe in the existence of God. Ever heard of Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan?

Ever hear the joke that if you ask two Jews to discuss anything you'll have three opinions? It may seem funny, but it's also true. Judaism does not have much in the way of a set creed or doctrine and opinions on everything, the nature of god, the afterlife, the importance of the Torah, etc. run the gamut.

What is its plan, you may ask? Assimilation of all religious beliefs (except for Christianity and the loyal Jews) into a one world religion, and destruction of the followers of Christianity and the Jews unwilling to change. You would be one of the ones they would overlook, as you have already fallen into their trap.

And there it is, at its heart. The hate for non-Christians that burns within you. The statement that their beliefs are invalid because they conflict with yours. The assumption that you speak for and represent the Lord.

You are not God, though you certainly think your opinion is that of God. In other words, you believe that you are God.

You won't acknowledge that, but that's fine. It's your life, your soul to destroy by playing the hater.

You'll figure it all out... Eventually.

And the Bible has a different POV than you do. Whatever happens, whatever people say, I use the Bible as my spiritual compass.

And I will use logic and reason rather than individualized hate and xenohobia when I interpret that text.

 

[sculleywr]

And, might I add, the "deity" Jesus of Nazareth is dead (and buried)?

Then explain why the Jewish leaders said the body had been stolen. You must remember that there was a detachment of the temple guards and a heavy stone for the women to get past to even get to the body. The tomb is empty, and you, like the Jewish leaders of those days, cannot refute that.

That's the Christian explanation for why they rejected Jewish tradition and Jewish law, yes... That the sacrifice of Jesus renders the previous 1500 years of history null and void.

No, it fulfills it.

Um... yeah. You have your beliefs, I have mine. Jesus, in the scope of my theology, is not who you claim him to be.

Well, crash course, tell me how any of these things are possible without God and why someone would be inspired so much by a man on a cross as to worship him. It is not within the scope of human nature to worship a dead guy who became the scorn of the earth so much that you would die for him. Christianity must have something behind it, since it has been around through persecution worse than the Jews had seen during the holocaust. Plus, it taught one thing that Jews didn't in those days: A law of grace. If you are saying that you must work your way to heaven by the 631 mitzvot, here is a list of the people who must be in hell, since they didn't have the mitzvot to read:
Abraham
Isaac
Noah
Judah
Israel (the person, not the nation)

How does one reach heaven? Well, from the experience of the patriarchs, it must have been grace, because they never had the letter of the law to follow. All they had was their faith and God's grace.

Indeed... With Israel athe house of Judah. By that logic, all Christians should be Jews and that to be a Christian one must first be a Jew. We both know that most Christians are gentiles, so either you're basing your theology on a self-deception or you somehow think Israel means something other than Israel in which case you're misinterpreting.

No, I then interpret that with verses in Isaiah:

Isaiah 11:10
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isaiah 42:6
I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isaiah 49:22
Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
Isaiah 54:3
For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
Isaiah 60:3
And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isaiah 60:5
Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
Isaiah 60:16
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 66:19
And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

Gentiles seem to be a popular topic for Isaiah, because he mentions much more about the blessings the messiah will bring them than the curses. There are only 3 passages of the book that mention the destruction of unbelieving gentiles. I find that to be a funny fact here.

I'm going to suggest you learn how to transliterate Hebrew properly. This is unreadable.

The text, in Hebrew:


Transliteration:
31 Lo khab'rit, asher karati et-avotam, b'yom hechaziqi b'yadam l'hotziam meeretz mitz'rayim: asher-hemah hefero et-b'riti, v'anokhi baal'ti vam--n'um-YHVH.

32 Ki zot hab'rit asher ekh'rit et-beit Yisrael acharei hayamim hahem n'um-YHVH, natati et-torati b'qir'bam, v'al-libam ekh't'venah v'hayiti lahem lelohaim, v'hemah yih'yo-li l'am.

Well, considering the fact that you pulled up a modern Hebrew copy and not an ancient version, I figure you wouldn't know the difference. What I provided was a transliteration of ancient Hebrew, based on the transliteration methods used by secular scholars, which would be illegible without knowing the transliteration methods used. The text you used had Hebrew vowels in it, where the text used back then had none. The reason I could tell this? The source I used had a bitmap image of the hebrew words, and you got more than double the letters than the pic had. By the Hebrew methods of copying the Bible, a scribe would burn the copy you used. Of course, those methods haven't been used for, oh, 2000+ years.

The translation isn't wrong, only your interpretation of it.

Tell me then, what scriptures do you use to interpret or understand this verse? Or are you too stubborn to think out of the box?

There's a big difference between a belief and a religion. Still, by that definition, Christianity is just as New Age as any other religion.

Ok, NOW you are just being stupid. Here is a difference between Christianity and the New Age according to the scholars:
Christianity:
Deity: The Triune God, AKA YHWH, AKA God almighty, Etc.
Concept of sin: Anything that is specifically mentioned in the Bible as sin. Includes breaking any commandment in the Bible. Things that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible are covered under the passage of Romans 14.
Redemptive plan: The blood of Christ, faith, and grace.
Use of angels: God's messengers, not to be worshipped, and in fact, denying worship on many accounts. They exist solely to reflect God's own glory back on God. In fact, this is illustrated nicely by Samuel (or is it Isaiah?) in his vision of the archangels standing with their wings outstretched facing the Lord. Some angels fell in the rebellion of Satan/lucifer. Lucifer is the master of deceit

The New Age:
Deity: Man and angels, which are considered simply a higher evolution of man.
Concept of sin: Either considered nonexistent or considered a mistake, and since one learns from their mistakes, sin is to be embraced and accepted as a fact of life
Redemptive plan: None, as it is not needed in the absence of a concept of sin.
Use of angels: Completely under the command of men, though more powerful. They are called "spirit guides, and are existing as a higher evolution of man that are all good. Lucifer is either considered the great God of light or one facet of God.

You speak as if there's consensus. There isn't, something you'll probably never grasp. One rabbi believes in the existence of a heaven. There's many that don't. Indeed, there are rabbis that don't even believe in the existence of God. Ever heard of Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan?

Ever hear the joke that if you ask two Jews to discuss anything you'll have three opinions? It may seem funny, but it's also true. Judaism does not have much in the way of a set creed or doctrine and opinions on everything, the nature of god, the afterlife, the importance of the Torah, etc. run the gamut.

The Bible is the inspired word of God, and back in the days of Jesus, there was a common consensus, and by that consensus, there was a fulfillment to be made, God existed. Shoot, the only differences they had was on what to do with Herod.

And there it is, at its heart. The hate for non-Christians that burns within you. The statement that their beliefs are invalid because they conflict with yours. The assumption that you speak for and represent the Lord.

You are not God, though you certainly think your opinion is that of God. In other words, you believe that you are God.

You won't acknowledge that, but that's fine. It's your life, your soul to destroy by playing the hater.

You'll figure it all out... Eventually.

Dude, I am just quoting the New Agers. I do not hate them. Shoot, I truly don't have a problem with their claimed aim of peace in the world. HOWEVER, I cannot condone the FACT that they worship Satan. I cannot deny that they want to destroy all who worship God. If you don't believe me, check out this website for the New Age Magazine for their ideas on the master plan:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Commentary/Great_Seal.htm
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/Lucis_Trust.htm

And I will use logic and reason rather than individualized hate and xenohobia when I interpret that text.

For one, I don't hate and I don't gossip. What I say is pure and simple. I do not embellish it or use useless theological revelation. I am not afraid of them, and I do not hate them. I hate the sin. I cannot condone the sin.

Now, just to throw you a curveball, I will ask you a theological question: What is the greatest commandment in the Torah?

 

[Teresh]

Then explain why the Jewish leaders said the body had been stolen. You must remember that there was a detachment of the temple guards and a heavy stone for the women to get past to even get to the body. The tomb is empty, and you, like the Jewish leaders of those days, cannot refute that.

I sure can. I can say that Christian scripture is inaccurate.

No, it fulfills it.

Then you have a profound misunderstanding of what the covenent with God means. A covenant doesn't get "fulfilled".

Well, crash course, tell me how any of these things are possible without God and why someone would be inspired so much by a man on a cross as to worship him. It is not within the scope of human nature to worship a dead guy who became the scorn of the earth so much that you would die for him.

Many ancient religions worshipped their ancestors who were, as you may recall, quite dead.

Christianity must have something behind it, since it has been around through persecution worse than the Jews had seen during the holocaust.

Christianity has not suffered persecution on the scale that Judaism has. Maybe it would be more appropriate to say that there must be something in Judaism for it to have survived?

Plus, it taught one thing that Jews didn't in those days: A law of grace. If you are saying that you must work your way to heaven by the 631 mitzvot, here is a list of the people who must be in hell, since they didn't have the mitzvot to read:
Abraham
Isaac
Noah
Judah
Israel (the person, not the nation)

I don't believe in a hell, so your point is moot, but assuming there is a hell... Following the mitzvot was a stipulation of the covenant with Israel (the nation). Abraham, Isaac, Noah, Judah and Israel were around (well, maybe not Noah) prior to that time and are therefore not bound to that covenant. They were, however, bound to the Noachide laws.

Isaiah 11:10
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Read the next verse too. There's a messianic prophecy Jesus didn't fulfill there.

Isaiah 42:6
I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Israel is, as part of their covenant, to be an example to the other nations of the world.

Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

The Messiah will restore the Jewish people, recover the Ten Lost Tribes. Jesus did not do that.

Gentiles seem to be a popular topic for Isaiah, because he mentions much more about the blessings the messiah will bring them than the curses. There are only 3 passages of the book that mention the destruction of unbelieving gentiles. I find that to be a funny fact here.

A funny fact? Gentiles are just as worthy to reap whatever benefits the afterlife may hold as Jews are. What about that can you not understand?

Well, considering the fact that you pulled up a modern Hebrew copy and not an ancient version, I figure you wouldn't know the difference. What I provided was a transliteration of ancient Hebrew, based on the transliteration methods used by secular scholars, which would be illegible without knowing the transliteration methods used.

It would be illegible to anyone that knows Hebrew. Considering you're not an expert in that field (per your question about the meaning of "bondservant" in Vayiqra), I'm inclined to believe you just copy-pasted from a website somewhere.

The text you used had Hebrew vowels in it, where the text used back then had none.

Indeed. Niqqudot were invented specifically because changing the text was not allowed, but they needed a way to help people learn to pronounce it since the language was essentially dead.

The reason I could tell this? The source I used had a bitmap image of the hebrew words, and you got more than double the letters than the pic had. By the Hebrew methods of copying the Bible, a scribe would burn the copy you used. Of course, those methods haven't been used for, oh, 2000+ years.

A bitmap image of the Hebrew words from what source? Remember also that the verse numbering in the text is something that was added later.

And you might know that Torahs that are damaged, found to contain an error, etc. are in fact still incinerated today.

Tell me then, what scriptures do you use to interpret or understand this verse? Or are you too stubborn to think out of the box?

I rely on the text. The line is to be understood literally. Your interpretation is a very large stretch given themeaning of the words as used in other parts of the book.

Christianity:
Deity: The Triune God, AKA YHWH, AKA God almighty, Etc.
Concept of sin: Anything that is specifically mentioned in the Bible as sin. Includes breaking any commandment in the Bible. Things that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible are covered under the passage of Romans 14.
Redemptive plan: The blood of Christ, faith, and grace.
Use of angels: God's messengers, not to be worshipped, and in fact, denying worship on many accounts. They exist solely to reflect God's own glory back on God. In fact, this is illustrated nicely by Samuel (or is it Isaiah?) in his vision of the archangels standing with their wings outstretched facing the Lord. Some angels fell in the rebellion of Satan/lucifer. Lucifer is the master of deceit[/QUPTE]

So I take it you keep kosher, observe all the Jewish holidays and don't drive on Shabbat?

The New Age:
Deity: Man and angels, which are considered simply a higher evolution of man.
Concept of sin: Either considered nonexistent or considered a mistake, and since one learns from their mistakes, sin is to be embraced and accepted as a fact of life
Redemptive plan: None, as it is not needed in the absence of a concept of sin.
Use of angels: Completely under the command of men, though more powerful. They are called "spirit guides, and are existing as a higher evolution of man that are all good. Lucifer is either considered the great God of light or one facet of God.

Heh. New Age is a movement, not a religion. Trying to qualify New Age beliefs is about as silly as trying to qualify Jewish beliefs, but for different reasons. Not all New Age people believe in that stuff (most don't, if you didn't know). The fact that your reading on the subject is entirely from people who have an axe to grind (read: hate, as you do) with non-Christians is a red flag for me because it tells me that you're not willing to listen to reason and logic. You're not willing to consult the source for your answers, only someone outside that who has his or her own interpretation to add.

The Bible is the inspired word of God, and back in the days of Jesus, there was a common consensus, and by that consensus, there was a fulfillment to be made, God existed. Shoot, the only differences they had was on what to do with Herod.

Then you have a profound misunderstanding of the Jewish people.

Dude, I am just quoting the New Agers. I do not hate them.

You categorize them, lump them into a convenient box rather than trying to think like a normal, intelligent human being.

Shoot, I truly don't have a problem with their claimed aim of peace in the world. HOWEVER, I cannot condone the FACT that they worship Satan.

They don't worship a satan any more than you do. You believe in the divinity of a satan, so maybe it's you who is the polytheist?

For one, I don't hate and I don't gossip. What I say is pure and simple. I do not embellish it or use useless theological revelation. I am not afraid of them, and I do not hate them. I hate the sin. I cannot condone the sin.

Now, just to throw you a curveball, I will ask you a theological question: What is the greatest commandment in the Torah?

There is no greatest commandment. They are all equally important. Hillel did summarise the Torah into three sentences, though: "That which is hateful to you, do not to thy neighbour. That is the whole of the Torah. The rest is commentary."