District files appeal against deaf student

[jackiesolorzano]

I am sorry...can I ask u this..do u think if deaf students who are not mainstreamed that means they dont have a chance to make it to a 4 year college? My deaf brother graduated from a deaf school (he had been going since he was 5) and now is in graduate school at a private college. If the expectations are set whether the children are mainstreamed or not, they can do anything they want. I know so many deaf professionals who went to deaf schools who have at multiple degrees.

I grew up in AZ and boy the school I went to had low expectations for me simply because I am deaf.

Right now, I live in MD.

I was a teacher aide for a deaf program at a public school in AZ. My gosh..that program was the worst I have ever seen..they lumped all the deaf/hoh (22 of them) into one class for language arts ..hello? they were from kindergarden to 8th grade? What kind of message is that sending to people about deaf children? That they are so dumb that even 8th graders must be in math and language classes with kindergardeners? I quit after 4 months there cuz it was so sickening. I vowed that I would never put my children if they are deaf in mainstreamed programs. My experience both personal and professional showed me enough. Maybe I am biased but I and those kids didnt deserve that kind of education or being degraded like that.

Your experience in AZ is the way it is in California. You are right you and all those other deaf students deserve better then that. I wish I could change and I am trying but what I have to do is work within the system that we have here and do the best that I can do for my own children and students. I have always had to fight the system for my children. I don't just fight to fight, I pick the battles that I feel are most important for my children.

 

[shel90]

No I do not think that if deaf students are not mainstreamed they cannot make it a 4 year college. It really depends where they get their education. I can tell you that in the class next door to me and in the special day classes in our area deaf kids that have go through soley in a special day class would have a really hard, I mean almost impossible time to make it a 4 year college.
My daughter has several friends that only sign and I know they will make it easy at any 4 year college but they are fully mainstream and a couple of them are in honors classes. I am in California and I became a teacher in California so I know how it works here. I have never lived outside of California so I couldn't tell you how it is outside of here. In our areas deaf students in special day classes are working far below their hearing peers.

A couple of years ago my deaf son asked me why his deaf friends in the special class are working at a 3rd grade level in math if they are in 7th grade. He said they should be learning Alegbra like he was. He also asked me why are his deaf friends going to visit a factory that the d/hh teachers should be taking his friends to different college not factories. It is a shame but this is the way it is here.

I work really hard with the parents of my students to get my students fully mainstream by the time they are in 1st grade.

That program definitely needs to be changed cuz those students are losing out a lot. Why is this being allowed by the school district? I cant believe that their parents are accepting this level of education. I would have raised hell..ha! I have very strong feelings about deaf education especially if people lower the expectations of the education for deaf children. There is no deaf school nearby?

 

[shel90]

I always make sure that Samantha teachers understand that although she has great speech she is deaf. Sometimes we have come across people trying to tell me that my children are not deaf that they are hard of hearing because they have good speech. I always make sure that my children and everybody in their lives understand that they are deaf. With hearing aids and cochlear implants on then they are hard of hearing. I understand completely and make sure that everybody else their world understand even with their hearing devices they are still missing information especially in a classroom that has so much background information.

My mother did the same but yet, I got yelled at by my teachers for "not paying" attention in class. They would call on me to answer a question and because they walked around the classroom jabbering away, I had no idea what they were talking about (I had no self esteem back then so I was so passive and thought everyone else was right or knew better than me) so I got into trouble for not being able to answer the questions. I would tell them that I couldnt understand them and they would tell me to stop making excuses. If I knew then what I know now..u bet, I would have had a big time smart-mouth with those teachers about doing their jobs properly.

 

[shel90]

Your experience in AZ is the way it is in California. You are right you and all those other deaf students deserve better then that. I wish I could change and I am trying but what I have to do is work within the system that we have here and do the best that I can do for my own children and students. I have always had to fight the system for my children. I don't just fight to fight, I pick the battles that I feel are most important for my children.

Also, I wanted to add that even as a teacher's aide myself with only a BA in special ed, I tried to make suggestions to change the program but the principal and other hearing staff seemed afraid to talk to me. They would just nod their heads and dismiss me by moving on to other topics with the other teachers as if I wasnt there. Even as an adult, I felt I was being looked down. After that, I went on to pursue my master's in deaf education cuz I felt I didnt have enough knowledge to put up a good fight. Now, I do but I got a job at the deaf school and just fell in love with it. Got people respecting my suggestions and opinions and people knowing how to meet each deaf students' needs. It is nice to be in a program like this so I dont think I will ever leave.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Personally, I'm on the schools side. She doesn't have any problem understanding her -teachers- according to the article, just students and side conversations.. some districts hardly have money for text books, but tax money should go to spending 30 thousand dollars a year to make sure she can take part in class jokes? No. If the problem was understanding academic content, I would be okay with her requesting such a service.

Actually she doe have lots of problems understanding her teachers. Are you deaf by any chance. She does have problems many problems understanding academic content. My daughter is luckily that I am teacher so what she doesn't understand we go over at home. We have a set of text books at home. At the high school level many of her classes give points for particiaption in class. If she doesn't hear or understand the students she doesn't get these points because she cannot particapate. Can you try to image what it is like to have everybody laughing around you and you have no idea why.

Once my daughter Samantha told me that one of her classes was having a review day where they were playing a game to review for a test. My daughter had usually the 2 or 3 highest test scores in this class so everybody wanted her on their team. Her team lost although they had my daughter on their team because she couldn't hear the questions. Then can you image she has a non-verbal IQ in the 130's so she is very smart she knows she is missing information because of how smart she and she cannot do anything about it.

Yes CART costs a lot of money but there are 8 different high schools in our area that provide this service. We live in an area that a small 3 bedroom home costs over 1/2 million and there are also homes well over 5 million dollars in our small city. We live a pretty nice area, our school district is one of the higher performing schools in our area. And there is money here. But they would rather spend the money on the attorney fees.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

That program definitely needs to be changed cuz those students are losing out a lot. Why is this being allowed by the school district? I cant believe that their parents are accepting this level of education. I would have raised hell..ha! I have very strong feelings about deaf education especially if people lower the expectations of the education for deaf children. There is no deaf school nearby?

There is a school for deaf out here Riverside but it does not have a very good rep. And schools only send kids there is they are failing at our local school special day classes.

 

[shel90]

Actually she doe have lots of problems understanding her teachers. Are you deaf by any chance. She does have problems many problems understanding academic content. My daughter is luckily that I am teacher so what she doesn't understand we go over at home. We have a set of text books at home. At the high school level many of her classes give points for particiaption in class. If she doesn't hear or understand the students she doesn't get these points because she cannot particapate. Can you try to image what it is like to have everybody laughing around you and you have no idea why.

Once my daughter Samantha told me that one of her classes was having a review day where they were playing a game to review for a test. My daughter had usually the 2 or 3 highest test scores in this class so everybody wanted her on their team. Her team lost although they had my daughter on their team because she couldn't hear the questions. Then can you image she has a non-verbal IQ in the 130's so she is very smart she knows she is missing information because of how smart she and she cannot do anything about it.

Yes CART costs a lot of money but there are 8 different high schools in our area that provide this service. We live in an area that a small 3 bedroom home costs over 1/2 million and there are also homes well over 5 million dollars in our small city. We live a pretty nice area, our school district is one of the higher performing schools in our area. And there is money here. But they would rather spend the money on the attorney fees.

I cant believe that the school is being so ignorant.

Yea, I understand about classroom discussions or debates..I was unable to participate in them due to my inability to follow what everyone was saying. Man, those times were the most frustrating cuz I wanted to participate because I am very social person so I would go home crying my eyes out.

When I went to Gallaudet University after becoming fluent in ASL, I was finally able to participate in classroom discussions and debates fully and it was so great to experience that! I learned a lot from those than the traditional lectures. I am thankful I got to experience what it is like to be fully engaged in a classroom.

Did your daughter get the CART services?

 

[jackiesolorzano]

My mother did the same but yet, I got yelled at by my teachers for "not paying" attention in class. They would call on me to answer a question and because they walked around the classroom jabbering away, I had no idea what they were talking about (I had no self esteem back then so I was so passive and thought everyone else was right or knew better than me) so I got into trouble for not being able to answer the questions. I would tell them that I couldnt understand them and they would tell me to stop making excuses. If I knew then what I know now..u bet, I would have had a big time smart-mouth with those teachers about doing their jobs properly.

We have been lucky in that way. I had a meeting with all of her teachers the second week of school. Although they knew nothing about deafness they really listen to me. I told them about what I call Samantha deaf nod. If you ask her if she understood you she would just nod her head. I told the teachers she would do that just to not bring attention to herself. So from then on when they thought she didn't understand they would ask her to stay after class a couple of minutes to explain or they would e-mail. Her teacher this year all loved her and did whatever they could for her. It is just the district that are not undestanding and treat us with such disrespect. My daughter calls the special education director Mr Evil. I think the reason she has tried so hard this year is to show him that she can do it because he wanted us to stay at the other high school that has deaf students.

 

[shel90]

There is a school for deaf out here Riverside but it does not have a very good rep. And schools only send kids there is they are failing at our local school special day classes.

That's the misconception out there that schools for the deaf are places of last resort. U cant blame the schools for kids not doing well..have to understand that many kids fall behind in mainstreamed programs or language development so they get sent to the deaf schools and we are the ones who have to work twice as hard to get the kids all caught up. It is hard so I get so tired of people having this wrong info about deaf schools. We have children who started at our deaf schools since PreK and they are performing on their academic level but unfortunately, the majority of student are from mainstreamed programs in which they were allowed to fall so far behind so when they come to our school, they are like 3 or 4 grades behind. My job is not easy cuz I have to work twice as hard as teachers of hearing children because I get students who are so language delayed from not having full access to language all their lives. Try to teach reading and writing to students who cant express themselves using language.

 

[shel90]

We have been lucky in that way. I had a meeting with all of her teachers the second week of school. Although they knew nothing about deafness they really listen to me. I told them about what I call Samantha deaf nod. If you ask her if she understood you she would just nod her head. I told the teachers she would do that just to not bring attention to herself. So from then on when they thought she didn't understand they would ask her to stay after class a couple of minutes to explain or they would e-mail. Her teacher this year all loved her and did whatever they could for her. It is just the district that are not undestanding and treat us with such disrespect. My daughter calls the special education director Mr Evil. I think the reason she has tried so hard this year is to show him that she can do it because he wanted us to stay at the other high school that has deaf students.

I did the nodding thing myself cuz I didnt want to be singled out. Unfortunately my teachers took it as I understood everything. Boy, did I fool them! LOL!

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I cant believe that the school is being so ignorant.

Yea, I understand about classroom discussions or debates..I was unable to participate in them due to my inability to follow what everyone was saying. Man, those times were the most frustrating cuz I wanted to participate because I am very social person so I would go home crying my eyes out.

When I went to Gallaudet University after becoming fluent in ASL, I was finally able to participate in classroom discussions and debates fully and it was so great to experience that! I learned a lot from those than the traditional lectures. I am thankful I got to experience what it is like to be fully engaged in a classroom.

Did your daughter get the CART services?

Actually we were gone for a couple of weeks on vacation. I just finished reading my e-mails and Samantha's attorney e-mailed me telling me that they are going to provide CART for the fall school year. We have an amazing attorney, he was able to show them a court case where the school had to provide what the first judge said while the appeal was taking place. Although the appeal is taking place she will have CART

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I did the nodding thing myself cuz I didnt want to be singled out. Unfortunately my teachers took it as I understood everything. Boy, did I fool them! LOL!

Yeah when I told my daughter's teachers about this they all went Oh My God she has already done this in class. They understood how she is just trying to fit in and didn't want to be singled out. It work out well where they would e-mail when it happen or talked to her later or sometimes they would tell her notetaker to check with her and make sure she understood.

 

[jillio]

Personally, I'm on the schools side. She doesn't have any problem understanding her -teachers- according to the article, just students and side conversations.. some districts hardly have money for text books, but tax money should go to spending 30 thousand dollars a year to make sure she can take part in class jokes? No. If the problem was understanding academic content, I would be okay with her requesting such a service.

When other students ask questions and make remarks during a classroom discussion, it is a part of the total learning process that takes place in the classtoom. Students do not learn simply from a teacher's lecture, or from a text book. They learn by free exchange of ideas in an educational atmosphere. They learn from each other as well as the teacher. This is called periphereal learning, and is a very important part of the learning process.

In addition, school is a place for socialization, and learning how and when to apply social skills, and how to interact with one's peers, and to develop an understanding of the people with whom, and situations in which, one is most comfortable.

All of this is freely available to the hearing students in this school, and therefore, the school is obligated to make such available to any deaf student, as well.

And I might add, if this parent had of taken a bi-bi approach, none of this would be an issue. Because a sign terp would interpret ambient noise and periphereal information, it would be available. This is one of the dangers of a strictly oral educational placement and philosophy. This child is receiving less than adequate education because the belief is obviously that because she has a CI, and is functioning reasonably well in one on one situations, she will function in the same way in a classroom.

 

[jillio]

Providing the note taker spells words correctly and knows how to take really good notes.

Unless the school is using a professionally trained notetaker, this is probably not the case. And the child is still missing out on periphereal information available to hearing students.

 

[jillio]

Oh gosh..it was 20 years ago...I don't remember if I protested or not. Besides I was just a kid who didn't know better about those kinds of issues.

Chances are, you reacted like the majority of kids, shel. High school is an extremely tough time socially for all kids, deaf or hearing. Acceps a big issue. So I would venture a guess that you did not protest, as it would have made the fact that you were a bit different from your hearing classmates more obvious. This is a situation that occurs with many, many mainstreamed deaf kids. And a reaction that is completely understandable, as the deaf child will do what they can to achieve acceptance just like a hearing child will.

 

[jillio]

I can understand what Samantha Solorzano went through. It can be extremely frustrated not knowing what's going on in these private conversations and class discussions. I even made a joke for myself I need another two pairs of eyes, one for writing notes and other for watching an interpreter.

I recall this female student in my class who had an inability to move her arms and hands (I don't know what her medical condition was). She had to ask any student in our class to volunteer to write notes for her. She even offered money, but nobody was willing to do it. I decided to help her by giving her copy of my notes. I always carry a tape recorder with me, in case a note-taker decides to ditch us. I also recall a teacher gave 2 hours lecture and a comatose and neglectful note-taker (he was a student, not a professional) wrote only two pages based on a lecture. Did he deserve $60 for writing two pages of the notes? Nope.

Note-takers are notorious for abridging notes, Note-taker is one of the communication tools, but not enough effective for deaf / HOH students. Personally, I think CART is probably far more effective than a note-taker. I've never had a CART before. I am looking forward to using a CART in the future.

Teachers are responsible to teach the important issues and give textbooks to the students, so they will memorize them all for future exams. Teachers also need to not to be intimidated to ask direct questions to deaf/ HOH students equally. Isn't that what the teachers do? Deaf / HOH students are visual people. I think it is also important for deaf / HOH students / interpreters to remind teachers constantly to write outlines and vocabularies on the board all the time. Some interpreters have hard time spelling long vocabularies and try to catch up with teachers' lectures! I know the teachers tend to ramble.

I was the only deaf ever to attend an out of country private high school (college prep level) for three years and it currently has neither deaf/HOH program, nor interpreters. Luckily, I had a tape recorder, a Merriam-Webster dictionary, Thesaurus and my friends writing notes for me. They helped me a great deal to catch up with studying, giving lectures at a science fair, participating in the drama production, and even discussing issues for youth UN three times. Unfortunately, I still missed out a lot.

I certainly agree with your points. One of the first things I did when I began working for disability services at the college where I am employed and working on my graduate degree was to get rid of the practice of using student volunteer notetakers. And I am in the process of doing away with notetakers altogether and using CART for not only deaf students, but for other disabled students needing notetaking services as well. CART is one of the technological improvements that has the potential to be more helpful than anything we have come across in many, many years. The onlu problem I see, with relation to deaf students, is that it is an English transcript, and is a student is strongly based in ASL, it may also be necessary to provide an ASL terp so that the student gets the concept in ASL during the lecture, and then has available a print transcript of the lecture in English.

 

[jillio]

Lucky deaf students in your area. I tried to ask my dept to use professional note-takers instead of student volunteers but they refused, I even complained a few times until I realize they will not do anything about it. I did not understand why they continued to use student note-takers.

My life would have been a lot easier if I have a real note-takers. Four years I have struggled with getting a good notes from classes. I shouldn't have go through stuff like this. I just wanted to learn in peace. Frak it.

I sympathize. Schools continue to use volunteer notetakers for several reasons: 1. They are cheaper. 2. Educators have had no experience with deaf education, and are not aware of the liguistic problems that need to be compensated for in notes. 3. They are providing some service, so can believe that they are in line with the ADA. 4. They are more concerned with financial concerns than with the education they are providing. I find this one, in particular, the most objectionable.

Actually, a student volunteer notetaker does not meet ADA criteria. It secifically says, "qualified notetaker". If the deaf student is unable to decipher the hearing volunteer's note, the volunteer is obviously not qualified to provide that service.

 

[jillio]

I forgot to mention some things. First in the school district that she is in they do not have any teachers of the deaf. In the newspaper article, they talk about how parent based their children's educational decision through their heart and how school district based their decision on the child's educational need. I have a big problem with that how can they know what my daughter needs if they do not have teacher's of the deaf on staff. Also I forgot to mention that I am an oral teacher of the deaf. The school district's expert witness was a teacher of the deaf who received her training over 20 years ago. The only reason I mention this is because I had to explain to her how CART real time captioning works. She heard the term before but did not know how it work. This person who had no idea how CART was the school districts expert.

What about going out of district? And if your daughter has adequate social signing skills, how is it that using those skills in an educational environment would be a detriment? Isn't getting the information across the first priorty of education?

 

[jillio]

When I first asked for CART, I gave them a 20 page report. In this report I gave them different research articles published about the benefits of CART, names of other high school that use CART. I also took several different teachers of deaf with me to this IEP. I had 2 oral teachers of deaf, a total communication teacher that teaches in sign language and a certified auditory verbal therapist with me. I wanted them to tell me how I who had over 100 years of experiences teaching deaf students and the school district that had one teacher of the deaf with them that didn't know what CART was, how they were going to tell me that they knew they knew the educational needs of deaf students better then use. They said no to CART, because she receives good grades. Let me tell you why she gets good grades in school because of the amount of work we do at home. She works at least 2 hours day and up to 5 hours a day. She has great teachers that I talk to at least once a week with each and every one of her teachers. I am teacher and I work with her ever day.


On her state test where I cannot her with pre teaching or post teaching and where she cannot study she recieved below basic scores.

I read one of the post where they say she understands everything her teachers say that is not true. Her teachers know her well enough to see in her face when she does not understand something so they repeat for her or keep her after class to explain to all again.

Unfortunately, because you have signed off on IEPs int he past that provided minimal services, it is causing you problems now. You agreed tothe oral environment for your daughter, the schools system has been permitted to provide those minimal services for her, and now they are standing on that fact. And they have the paperwork to prove that you have agreed to lesser services historically.

 

[jillio]

I can really see your point. When we first started on this road I wasn't against sign language. I wanted my children to have every advantage in life. We decided to try the oral way. We always had in mind that when our children were old enough to make their decision we would let them. My daughter has made this choice she wants to stay where she is at and she wants to stay at her high school that has no deaf students. She had a sign interpeter she was awful. Samantha said she does want a sign language interpeter. She use to go to a high school that had about 60 deaf kids and about 1000 hearing kids. I told her her if she wants she can go back to that school. She says no. She says her heart is at south hills but her education and mind is at glendora. She says that glendora has higher expectation of her then south hills.
My daughter is 16 years and for the last couple of years I have not made any educational decisions without her input. She knows what she wants.

Unfortunalely, 16 year old children do know what they want, but they base their wants and desires on the wrong criteria. It is necessary for the parents to step inat this point. As far as challenges go, having lower expectations should not have an effect on her education. She can always exceed the expectations and prove those who aren't giving her credit for her capabilites wrong.