District files appeal against deaf student

[jillio]

That's a school under the G.L.A.D. umbrella that favors the use of sign language interpreters over the other methods like CART used by the hard of hearing and the oral deaf.

We got a federal grant to provide loaner laptops to schools who wishes to experiment with CART. We have 30 laptops coming in soon to support fifteen oral students in the fall. We're highly motivated to bring the CART costs down so this type of accommodation will be come more cost accessible.

Richard

Glad to hear that--I am a big supporter of CART services.

 

[jillio]

When I was in my high school, I had an interpreter, had a tape recorder, and a note-taker in a history class with 40 hearing students. It was terrible boring for two hours every Monday morning. My mother helped me to write down the papers from listening the recorder. She cannot believe that I had two lousy teachers.

My note-taker was very nice, but her note was terrible. Sometimes, she writes outlines which wasn't helpful to me. I cannot complaint about it because she was the only one that volunteered to be a note-taker.

I hate my history teacher because he mumbled his lectures. He wasn't excited or motived teacher. I wrote many long essays thru the history classes. At the end of spring, my teacher tossed all students' essay papers in the trash. I stunned and wanted my papers for my college. I lost my interest to study in history because I worked so hard for many hours at every night - for nothing! Do you have the same situation?

I have a big problem with the use of student volunteer notetakers for deaf students. Student vlounteers create problems that are way too numerous to mention in a short post. The college where I work was using student volunteers when I came here: since that time they have allowed me to rework the dept. and we now use professional notetakers that are required not only to attend a training session, but must also demonstrate proficiency in the subjects they are notetaking in. And, we are very reluctant to hire anyone to notetake for deaaf students who does not know sign, as sometimes it is necessary to facilitate communication with a professor or another student, even though they are not terps, per se.

 

[Silentwolfdog]

I have a big problem with the use of student volunteer notetakers for deaf students. Student vlounteers create problems that are way too numerous to mention in a short post. The college where I work was using student volunteers when I came here: since that time they have allowed me to rework the dept. and we now use professional notetakers that are required not only to attend a training session, but must also demonstrate proficiency in the subjects they are notetaking in. And, we are very reluctant to hire anyone to notetake for deaaf students who does not know sign, as sometimes it is necessary to facilitate communication with a professor or another student, even though they are not terps, per se.

Lucky deaf students in your area. I tried to ask my dept to use professional note-takers instead of student volunteers but they refused, I even complained a few times until I realize they will not do anything about it. I did not understand why they continued to use student note-takers.

My life would have been a lot easier if I have a real note-takers. Four years I have struggled with getting a good notes from classes. I shouldn't have go through stuff like this. I just wanted to learn in peace. Frak it.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

CART and due process case

Hi Thank you all for your interest in my daughter's case. I am Samantha's mom and I wanted to give you all some insight. First I have 2 deaf oral teenagers. Both of my children have great oral skills and have been raised orally. Both of my children know sign language and have pretty good signing skills socially. Academically they have only been taught in oral language. So this is why a sign language interpreter would not be good fo rmy daughter. As we only knoow there is not a sign for every spoken word and then take into account that my daughter first language is spoken English having an interpreter is not best for her needs.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Cart

I forgot to mention some things. First in the school district that she is in they do not have any teachers of the deaf. In the newspaper article, they talk about how parent based their children's educational decision through their heart and how school district based their decision on the child's educational need. I have a big problem with that how can they know what my daughter needs if they do not have teacher's of the deaf on staff. Also I forgot to mention that I am an oral teacher of the deaf. The school district's expert witness was a teacher of the deaf who received her training over 20 years ago. The only reason I mention this is because I had to explain to her how CART real time captioning works. She heard the term before but did not know how it work. This person who had no idea how CART was the school districts expert.

 

[shel90]

Hi Thank you all for your interest in my daughter's case. I am Samantha's mom and I wanted to give you all some insight. First I have 2 deaf oral teenagers. Both of my children have great oral skills and have been raised orally. Both of my children know sign language and have pretty good signing skills socially. Academically they have only been taught in oral language. So this is why a sign language interpreter would not be good fo rmy daughter. As we only knoow there is not a sign for every spoken word and then take into account that my daughter first language is spoken English having an interpreter is not best for her needs.

How come you dont want sign language in the educational setting? I grew up oral and missed lot of information and then I learned sign language and went to college using sign language and for the first time, I could understand everything and what everyone was saying. It doesnt matter if the word doesnt have a sign..there is fingerspelling. Now, I am a teacher teaching deaf children using sign language and the students still get the same info as hearing students in public schools. These kids will never miss out on anything that happens in the classroom and I envy them for that because I had to play a lot of guesswork growing up in an oral only education. If I had to change it, I would have both signing and oral (BI BI approach) for my educational needs growing up.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

When we first asked for CART

When I first asked for CART, I gave them a 20 page report. In this report I gave them different research articles published about the benefits of CART, names of other high school that use CART. I also took several different teachers of deaf with me to this IEP. I had 2 oral teachers of deaf, a total communication teacher that teaches in sign language and a certified auditory verbal therapist with me. I wanted them to tell me how I who had over 100 years of experiences teaching deaf students and the school district that had one teacher of the deaf with them that didn't know what CART was, how they were going to tell me that they knew they knew the educational needs of deaf students better then use. They said no to CART, because she receives good grades. Let me tell you why she gets good grades in school because of the amount of work we do at home. She works at least 2 hours day and up to 5 hours a day. She has great teachers that I talk to at least once a week with each and every one of her teachers. I am teacher and I work with her ever day.


On her state test where I cannot her with pre teaching or post teaching and where she cannot study she recieved below basic scores.

I read one of the post where they say she understands everything her teachers say that is not true. Her teachers know her well enough to see in her face when she does not understand something so they repeat for her or keep her after class to explain to all again.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

How come you dont want sign language in the educational setting? I grew up oral and missed lot of information and then I learned sign language and went to college using sign language and for the first time, I could understand everything and what everyone was saying. It doesnt matter if the word doesnt have a sign..there is fingerspelling. Now, I am a teacher teaching deaf children using sign language and the students still get the same info as hearing students in public schools. These kids will never miss out on anything that happens in the classroom and I envy them for that because I had to play a lot of guesswork growing up in an oral only education. If I had to change it, I would have both signing and oral (BI BI approach) for my educational needs growing up.

I can really see your point. When we first started on this road I wasn't against sign language. I wanted my children to have every advantage in life. We decided to try the oral way. We always had in mind that when our children were old enough to make their decision we would let them. My daughter has made this choice she wants to stay where she is at and she wants to stay at her high school that has no deaf students. She had a sign interpeter she was awful. Samantha said she does want a sign language interpeter. She use to go to a high school that had about 60 deaf kids and about 1000 hearing kids. I told her her if she wants she can go back to that school. She says no. She says her heart is at south hills but her education and mind is at glendora. She says that glendora has higher expectation of her then south hills.
My daughter is 16 years and for the last couple of years I have not made any educational decisions without her input. She knows what she wants.

 

[shel90]

I can really see your point. When we first started on this road I wasn't against sign language. I wanted my children to have every advantage in life. We decided to try the oral way. We always had in mind that when our children were old enough to make their decision we would let them. My daughter has made this choice she wants to stay where she is at and she wants to stay at her high school that has no deaf students. She had a sign interpeter she was awful. Samantha said she does want a sign language interpeter. She use to go to a high school that had about 60 deaf kids and about 1000 hearing kids. I told her her if she wants she can go back to that school. She says no. She says her heart is at south hills but her education and mind is at glendora. She says that glendora has higher expectation of her then south hills.
My daughter is 16 years and for the last couple of years I have not made any educational decisions without her input. She knows what she wants.

That's good that u are open to let her make her decisions. I did express that I wanted to go to the Deaf school while in high school cuz I was tired of being left out but the specialists said I was "too smart for sign language and other deaf students" Now that I am older, I really didnt appreciate that view imposed on me.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

notetaker

Samantha has an adult notetaker. This notetaker really likes Samantha but she has missed many school days because of illness which is not her fault but still samantha misses out. The other thing even a good notetaker cannot write everything down everything that is being said. Samantha notetaker doesn't write everything down she feels that if a student says something mean Samantha shouldn't know about it. It is not fair that all the other students can hear these things but my daughter cannot. My daughter has the same rights as all the other students. She should be able to know why someone is laughing in class or why they are mad. She feels felt out. That is horrible to feel left out.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

That's good that u are open to let her make her decisions. I did express that I wanted to go to the Deaf school while in high school cuz I was tired of being left out but the specialists said I was "too smart for sign language and other deaf students" Now that I am older, I really didnt appreciate that view imposed on me.

The reason Samantha wants to stay at her current high school is because they have higher expectation for her. In her old high school where she was fully mainstreamed her interpeters did everything for the deaf kids. And her mainstream teachers did not have the same expectation for their deaf students and for their hearing students and Samantha did not like this and I of course didn't either. As a teacher yourself and as a teacher myself I found that a lot of d/hh classes have different expectations then hearing classes. The ideal solution would be that both types of classes had the same expectations.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I had to read the article again to understand where you're coming from, Aleser. Actually, any and all comments and questions that classmates say should be told to the student, regardless, by the teacher, what the comment was. Nothing is worse than not getting a comment or a joke and the person who can't hear is the only one not laughing.

Furthermore, if a hearing student was the only one among all other students who use asl and they are laughing, the hearing student would insist on knowing what the others are laughing or commenting about.

I side with the student.

That is exactly what I am trying to do for my daughter giver her the same rights as all the other students. She has that right. The school is only thinking of the money. I have told the school that I would help them find the money since I am special education teacher I know a little bit about finding the money for this but they refuse.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Well Nesmuth, if oral deaf and hoh folks learned Sign, then they could take advantage of 'terps.
That is why I am so hardcore about even "oral sucesses" learning sign........that way they could take advantage of 'terps and not have to sue in court for things like notetakers etc.

But why does my daughter have to change who she is just because it would make it easier for the school to provide her an interpeter. The special education law states that school must respect and encourage thestudent's preferred mode of communication not what is easiest for the school

 

[jackiesolorzano]

The reason that I contacted different media sources is because first I wanted other parents to know what we are going through so that they know they are not alone in this. The second thing is I want people to know that the school district instead of giving a student what they need they are wasting money on attorney fees. We have won at the school level so now the school district has to pay their attorney fees and our attorney fees. The school is appealing but it is very rare for an appeal to be granted. They are only doing this to delay everything. The money they have already spent could have paid for 3 years of CART my daughter only needs 2 years. If we would have lost at the school level we would not have appeal decision we would have gone directly to the federal level and gone with ADA. The school is not giving my daughter access to the curriulum.

 

[shel90]

The reason Samantha wants to stay at her current high school is because they have higher expectation for her. In her old high school where she was fully mainstreamed her interpeters did everything for the deaf kids. And her mainstream teachers did not have the same expectation for their deaf students and for their hearing students and Samantha did not like this and I of course didn't either. As a teacher yourself and as a teacher myself I found that a lot of d/hh classes have different expectations then hearing classes. The ideal solution would be that both types of classes had the same expectations.

That's why I have a high expectation from my deaf/hoh schools at the Deaf school. Many of the teachers that are my age or younger at my work are having the same high expectations from the students as opposed as the old days when expectations are lowered. The deaf ed programs especially the BIBI ones dont believe in lowering expectations for deaf/hoh children. That's why I have a problem with the mainstreamed programs for deaf/hoh children cuz many of the teachers dont have any deaf ed training or background and they dont know how to meet the students' needs. Mine were not met that's for sure. I was treated like a baby by my teachers all my life but it was my mother who had the expectations for me so luckily I followed her expectations not my teachers. They always made comments like "Oh you are so special..oh you are so smart because u can speak so well." With my kind of personality, it turned me off. Actually, it embarassed me instead of making me feel "special." :roll:

That's what I like about my school where I work at...nobody gets special treatment.

 

[shel90]

Samantha has an adult notetaker. This notetaker really likes Samantha but she has missed many school days because of illness which is not her fault but still samantha misses out. The other thing even a good notetaker cannot write everything down everything that is being said. Samantha notetaker doesn't write everything down she feels that if a student says something mean Samantha shouldn't know about it. It is not fair that all the other students can hear these things but my daughter cannot. My daughter has the same rights as all the other students. She should be able to know why someone is laughing in class or why they are mad. She feels felt out. That is horrible to feel left out.

I had the same issues about feeling left out and at the time, I didnt understand why. I grew up with so much anger in me but therapy helped me work thru that anger. I thought I was not doing good enough cuz I was trying to be so hard to be "hearing" when it was impossible due to being profound deaf. Nobody bothered to reassure me that it wasnt my fault..everyone expected me to hear everything that was being said in class cuz my good speech skills were deceptive leading teachers and classmates into thinking I could hear more than I really could.

I had no notetaker, no interpreter, and no CART growing up. How did I learn? I have NO idea and that scares me.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

That's why I have a high expectation from my deaf/hoh schools at the Deaf school. Many of the teachers that are my age or younger at my work are having the same high expectations from the students as opposed as the old days when expectations are lowered. The deaf ed programs especially the BIBI ones dont believe in lowering expectations for deaf/hoh children. That's why I have a problem with the mainstreamed programs for deaf/hoh children cuz many of the teachers dont have any deaf ed training or background and they dont know how to meet the students' needs. Mine were not met that's for sure. I was treated like a baby by my teachers all my life but it was my mother who had the expectations for me so luckily I followed her expectations not my teachers. They always made comments like "Oh you are so special..oh you are so smart because u can speak so well." With my kind of personality, it turned me off. Actually, it embarassed me instead of making me feel "special." :roll:

That's what I like about my school where I work at...nobody gets special treatment.

Where do you teach in what state. Your program sounds great. We live in southern California and I have not seen a program like that yet out here. I am a preschool d/hh teacher. The class next door is a total communication class room grade preschool through 5th grade with about 15 students in there. I don't care how good of teacher anyone is. One teacher cannot teach students from ages of 3 to 11. Whenever I would go in there none of the students were working close to grade level.

You are lucky and that is why I fought so much for my children to be mainstream so at least they have a fighting chance at making it a 4 year college.

 

[shel90]

Where do you teach in what state. Your program sounds great. We live in southern California and I have not seen a program like that yet out here. I am a preschool d/hh teacher. The class next door is a total communication class room grade preschool through 5th grade with about 15 students in there. I don't care how good of teacher anyone is. One teacher cannot teach students from ages of 3 to 11. Whenever I would go in there none of the students were working close to grade level.

You are lucky and that is why I fought so much for my children to be mainstream so at least they have a fighting chance at making it a 4 year college.

I am sorry...can I ask u this..do u think if deaf students who are not mainstreamed that means they dont have a chance to make it to a 4 year college? My deaf brother graduated from a deaf school (he had been going since he was 5) and now is in graduate school at a private college. If the expectations are set whether the children are mainstreamed or not, they can do anything they want. I know so many deaf professionals who went to deaf schools who have at multiple degrees.

I grew up in AZ and boy the school I went to had low expectations for me simply because I am deaf.

Right now, I live in MD.

I was a teacher aide for a deaf program at a public school in AZ. My gosh..that program was the worst I have ever seen..they lumped all the deaf/hoh (22 of them) into one class for language arts ..hello? they were from kindergarden to 8th grade? What kind of message is that sending to people about deaf children? That they are so dumb that even 8th graders must be in math and language classes with kindergardeners? I quit after 4 months there cuz it was so sickening. I vowed that I would never put my children if they are deaf in mainstreamed programs. My experience both personal and professional showed me enough. Maybe I am biased but I and those kids didnt deserve that kind of education or being degraded like that.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I had the same issues about feeling left out and at the time, I didnt understand why. I grew up with so much anger in me but therapy helped me work thru that anger. I thought I was not doing good enough cuz I was trying to be so hard to be "hearing" when it was impossible due to being profound deaf. Nobody bothered to reassure me that it wasnt my fault..everyone expected me to hear everything that was being said in class cuz my good speech skills were deceptive leading teachers and classmates into thinking I could hear more than I really could.

I had no notetaker, no interpreter, and no CART growing up. How did I learn? I have NO idea and that scares me.

I always make sure that Samantha teachers understand that although she has great speech she is deaf. Sometimes we have come across people trying to tell me that my children are not deaf that they are hard of hearing because they have good speech. I always make sure that my children and everybody in their lives understand that they are deaf. With hearing aids and cochlear implants on then they are hard of hearing. I understand completely and make sure that everybody else their world understand even with their hearing devices they are still missing information especially in a classroom that has so much background information.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I am sorry...can I ask u this..do u think if deaf students who are not mainstreamed that means they dont have a chance to make it to a 4 year college? My deaf brother graduated from a deaf school (he had been going since he was 5) and now is in graduate school at a private college. If the expectations are set whether the children are mainstreamed or not, they can do anything they want. I know so many deaf professionals who went to deaf schools who have at multiple degrees.

I grew up in AZ and boy the school I went to had low expectations for me simply because I am deaf.

Right now, I live in MD.

I was a teacher aide for a deaf program at a public school in AZ. My gosh..that program was the worst I have ever seen..they lumped all the deaf/hoh (22 of them) into one class for language arts ..hello? they were from kindergarden to 8th grade? What kind of message is that sending to people about deaf children? That they are so dumb that even 8th graders must be in math and language classes with kindergardeners? I quit after 4 months there cuz it was so sickening. I vowed that I would never put my children if they are deaf in mainstreamed programs. My experience both personal and professional showed me enough. Maybe I am biased but I and those kids didnt deserve that kind of education or being degraded like that.

No I do not think that if deaf students are not mainstreamed they cannot make it a 4 year college. It really depends where they get their education. I can tell you that in the class next door to me and in the special day classes in our area deaf kids that have go through soley in a special day class would have a really hard, I mean almost impossible time to make it a 4 year college.
My daughter has several friends that only sign and I know they will make it easy at any 4 year college but they are fully mainstream and a couple of them are in honors classes. I am in California and I became a teacher in California so I know how it works here. I have never lived outside of California so I couldn't tell you how it is outside of here. In our areas deaf students in special day classes are working far below their hearing peers.

A couple of years ago my deaf son asked me why his deaf friends in the special class are working at a 3rd grade level in math if they are in 7th grade. He said they should be learning Alegbra like he was. He also asked me why are his deaf friends going to visit a factory that the d/hh teachers should be taking his friends to different college not factories. It is a shame but this is the way it is here.

I work really hard with the parents of my students to get my students fully mainstream by the time they are in 1st grade.