LuciaDisturbed
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I agree with you wholeheartedly.
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- Thread starter Oceanbreeze
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I agree with you wholeheartedly.
LuciaDisturbed
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Your art teacher is a bitch, no offense! I had a Film Studies teacher who tried to get away with this back in college, but I reported his ass to the Disability Services and they took care of it and I got my notetaker and interpreter for the class!
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Oh I'm not offended. I'm glad your disability services got it taken care of. Mine wasn't very effective at getting a notetaker for me for that class though I did have a terp over my teacher's objections.
Oceanbreeze
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Sounds unethical. You should have had anything you needed per your IEP or arranged through disability services. It's what they are there for, and what the IEP is for. The problem is that is has to make it into the IEP. Also, PARENTS have to be insistent that their childs' needs are met per the IEP. Once in college, the person must have the capability to advocate for oneself. If you don't, you're pretty much screwed.
I don't think my LDs were ever mentioned in the IEP, and that might be why they were never mitigated. I could have used note takers in class and extra time taking tests. It never happened. Again, parental input would have been incredibly helpful.
Then again a lot of parents are completely unaware of the accomondations they should ask for.
I was reading the CIO blog, and I read something that REALLY steamed me!
There was a post that said that AVT kids assimulate into the hearing mainstream. I'm sorry....One or two may feel totally and completely comfortable in the hearing world, and have good self esteem and stuff like that..........but how do they know that the AVT kids just don't report back major problems? I mean it's just like the way oral only adults and teens claim they reap all the advantages of being in the hearing world, but then they complain that managers think that they're mentally impaired b/c of the way they speak and they have no real close friends and have never had a serious boyfriend or girlfriend
Oceanbreeze
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Well,I get what you're saying, but, blogs are subjective. You really can't place too much stock in them for valid data. HOWEVER, research is another story.
But, this is why I got ticked off at the whole blog thing to begin with. You can't take them as valid scientific data, but they DO give you a birds' eye view into the world of these parents and kids. It's not a leap to believe that things kids want to please the adult; whether that adult is Mom, Dad, or an examiner. Also, I think it depends on how well a parent can teach a kid self advocacy. If you have a kid who is shy and not willing to speak up, then the kid is pretty much screwed. I was like that. I KNEW I wasn't being accomodated; yet I didn't feel comfortable enough to speak up in class when I did'n't understand something. I often went home and often didn't do my homework or whatever, because, I simply didn't grasp the concept of something and was frustrated. The other thing I often came up against was knowing that my notetaking was shoddy and couldn't make heads or tails of what was said in class. A lot of this could have been avoided if I had just been accomodated. I tend to agree with you that a parent may not know what to ask for, but, someone does. There should be someone in that IEP meeting to ASK "Do you think Jr needs a notetaker? Here's what they are."
Its the JOB of the parent to be informed, but it's also the job of someone to make sure they KNOW what to ask for for their child. It's also the parents' job to teach the kid how to advocate for themselves. This is where my parents dropped the ball. I was NOT the type to speak up and I ended up getting screwed over because of it.
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I did. I had a terp for the class and you can only get that via disablity services if I'm not mistaken.
I see that I forgot to mention that disability services tried to get her to let me have a note taker by going to her supervisor for my class. It blows and I wonder what else I could have done.
jillio
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The fact that children will act in the way they think will please an adult considered to be in authority is a well documented fact.
And I agree with the fact that blogs are not the way to inform parents, as the information is never, ever objective and cannot be applied to any child other than the one being blogged about. Mentorship or advocacy based on that one child's needs is the only way to do what is effect for your child.
TheOracle
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WOW. This thread was interesting...I kind of only made it to page seven, though 
but I wanted to ask a few questions.
Do these English-immersion schools advocate AGAINST ASL? Is this an "oral only" theory or do they think that English should come FIRST?
I think the idea behind some of the over-therapy is a few things...
One, most scientists believe that in order for a child to acquire a language fully, it has to be done before a certain age...so there is probably an anxiety about "ticking clocks".
If a child learns English/oral first and ASL second, he/she will never be as good as a native ASL speaker...same for the inverse. You CAN be bilingual, but your second language will always have that "accent". This is true for anyone acquiring another language. (Languages that occur simultaneously and very young will result a person with two true first languages.)
Parents probably think that since the world is mostly hearing and the States is English-dominant, than it would be better for ASL to be a "second" language. From a parent's POV, they probably *feel* that:
- A child who is oral and can communicate in English will have an "easier time", have higher rates of success
- Early intervention is important because so much language is amassed by hearing children by a few months old, so they want to play "catch up"
- they think they can communicate better with their child if they both have the same primary language
- unfortunately, language use is almost always "tied" to implications of intelligence, even when that's not the case....so parents who are not Deaf probably are scared that a child not having the greater culture's (in this case, the US)primary language would potentially suffer cognitively because language is (almost always) required to teach concepts, and the more elaborate, the more language required.
So...even though these parents are doing the wrong thing, I can see where it comes from. What they end up doing, though, is potentially taking language away from a child. (A child would still have language, but may not be "competent" in either language.)
also...in light with Spanish/English ed here, I think it is MUCH easier to perpetuate the myth that ASL is a crutch. To some people, it's "Oh, well, you just need to work harder to be successful and learn English (written) and oral language and lipreading and etc etc because that's what it takes here!" and they do not want their kids to be isolated from the hearing population.
That's probably where some of these parents come from...I can see why you would get your child screened for a hearing loss. Early intervention (otherwise known as parenting!) is crucial because language development begins when sound is heard (in utero) for hearing children and I would guess parents want to be prepared...so if a child is born deaf or loses hearing later in life, it is important for parents to have a plan so that they can communicate and enrich each other's lives with language. Unfortunately, some of those plans blow.
I wish ASL and dhh weren't such "mysteries" to the rest of the US. I feel like we're pretty ignorant...
//end rant.
but I wanted to ask a few questions.Do these English-immersion schools advocate AGAINST ASL? Is this an "oral only" theory or do they think that English should come FIRST?
I think the idea behind some of the over-therapy is a few things...
One, most scientists believe that in order for a child to acquire a language fully, it has to be done before a certain age...so there is probably an anxiety about "ticking clocks".
If a child learns English/oral first and ASL second, he/she will never be as good as a native ASL speaker...same for the inverse. You CAN be bilingual, but your second language will always have that "accent". This is true for anyone acquiring another language. (Languages that occur simultaneously and very young will result a person with two true first languages.)
Parents probably think that since the world is mostly hearing and the States is English-dominant, than it would be better for ASL to be a "second" language. From a parent's POV, they probably *feel* that:
- A child who is oral and can communicate in English will have an "easier time", have higher rates of success
- Early intervention is important because so much language is amassed by hearing children by a few months old, so they want to play "catch up"
- they think they can communicate better with their child if they both have the same primary language
- unfortunately, language use is almost always "tied" to implications of intelligence, even when that's not the case....so parents who are not Deaf probably are scared that a child not having the greater culture's (in this case, the US)primary language would potentially suffer cognitively because language is (almost always) required to teach concepts, and the more elaborate, the more language required.
So...even though these parents are doing the wrong thing, I can see where it comes from. What they end up doing, though, is potentially taking language away from a child. (A child would still have language, but may not be "competent" in either language.)
also...in light with Spanish/English ed here, I think it is MUCH easier to perpetuate the myth that ASL is a crutch. To some people, it's "Oh, well, you just need to work harder to be successful and learn English (written) and oral language and lipreading and etc etc because that's what it takes here!" and they do not want their kids to be isolated from the hearing population.
That's probably where some of these parents come from...I can see why you would get your child screened for a hearing loss. Early intervention (otherwise known as parenting!) is crucial because language development begins when sound is heard (in utero) for hearing children and I would guess parents want to be prepared...so if a child is born deaf or loses hearing later in life, it is important for parents to have a plan so that they can communicate and enrich each other's lives with language. Unfortunately, some of those plans blow.
I wish ASL and dhh weren't such "mysteries" to the rest of the US. I feel like we're pretty ignorant...
//end rant.
Bebonang
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To TheOracle. That is why we, Deafies and HOH, would like to teach hearing people especially parents and hearing authorities to understand our deaf and hard of hearing children and adults about our Deaf Culture and why we are opposed to oral-only methods. It would be great if we have the full toolbox for us to choose.
But AGBell people do not understand why it is important that we don't have to use speech therapy and to lipread hearing people. That is impossible to do that in the hearing world. Yes, the hearing school took the sign language away from us, not knowing that it is our true sign language. No wonder, we were kept in the dark and had to suffer the isolation in the hearing world. It help us to understand visually better than trying to make guess with lipreading and try to speak clearly in the right sentences. We can not hear the hearing people talk the way they talk.
That is why we are more comfortable being able to communicate in ASL in the Deaf communities. It sure is a whole lot better than the hearing world.
But AGBell people do not understand why it is important that we don't have to use speech therapy and to lipread hearing people. That is impossible to do that in the hearing world. Yes, the hearing school took the sign language away from us, not knowing that it is our true sign language. No wonder, we were kept in the dark and had to suffer the isolation in the hearing world. It help us to understand visually better than trying to make guess with lipreading and try to speak clearly in the right sentences. We can not hear the hearing people talk the way they talk.
That is why we are more comfortable being able to communicate in ASL in the Deaf communities. It sure is a whole lot better than the hearing world.
I think it depends. Clarke is OK with ASL, and is even OK with it being used off campus. Others are very anti "Sign is evil and the only thing that matters is speech speech speech." Trouble is, while there are some kids who are good at spoken language, it's still really rare for dhh kids to be totally on par with spoken language and have normal verbal IQs. And yes you're right.....oral only really does make parents too anxious for words and that is why they lash out at us, when we comment that having oral only as the only tool in the toolbox isn't enough or suggest adding ASL to the mix.
TheOracle
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How freaking freaking frustrating. Sociological studies in other populations have shown that the retraction of language affects identity, (i.e., such as the Spanish-speaking population) and can cause identity problems in kids. It's no different for the Deaf world, I'm sure!!
This concern over ORAL ORAL ORAL! is a rejection of ASL. It may not be intentionally cruel, but that's what it comes down to. English dominance. If you want to address success in the hearing world + Deaf community identity + the child's best interests, then yes, that full toolbox approach (which I've come to see as bi-bi) is the best.
UNFORTUNATELY...you don't find that in public schools (that I know of). Sure, in Special Education lectures, you'll find..."The best way to address hearing impairment is the use of ASL and English..." and "early intervention with English..." (I think that just means to start English at the same time as you start ASL, just like in any other bilingual household) but in reality, that execution doesn't give ASL equal balance, i.e., crappy interpreters, poor school placements, etc...
blaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
and then parents are forced to pay out the rear for private schools (or the state subsidizes it, depending where you live) OR live with whatever the public school can hand them.
And sometimes, parent's just don't know. They just think, well, ASL can be picked up later, because English is of the most importance now...even though late signers in ASL are easy to detect (just like you can detect non native English speakers) people think that English is more important because that's what everyone HEARS. *shrug* And this is an English dominated country.
This concern over ORAL ORAL ORAL! is a rejection of ASL. It may not be intentionally cruel, but that's what it comes down to. English dominance. If you want to address success in the hearing world + Deaf community identity + the child's best interests, then yes, that full toolbox approach (which I've come to see as bi-bi) is the best.
UNFORTUNATELY...you don't find that in public schools (that I know of). Sure, in Special Education lectures, you'll find..."The best way to address hearing impairment is the use of ASL and English..." and "early intervention with English..." (I think that just means to start English at the same time as you start ASL, just like in any other bilingual household) but in reality, that execution doesn't give ASL equal balance, i.e., crappy interpreters, poor school placements, etc...
blaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
and then parents are forced to pay out the rear for private schools (or the state subsidizes it, depending where you live) OR live with whatever the public school can hand them.
And sometimes, parent's just don't know. They just think, well, ASL can be picked up later, because English is of the most importance now...even though late signers in ASL are easy to detect (just like you can detect non native English speakers) people think that English is more important because that's what everyone HEARS. *shrug* And this is an English dominated country.