Could budget cuts in the mainstream lead to increased enrollement at deaf schools?

[GrendelQ]

I think Jilli was pointing out that from a monetary view, children who know ASL and use it in their classroom (effectively) will cost less to educate than a child who needs a lot of assistive technology.

I'm not advocating that at all. That was just the vibe I have been getting (I've been eyeballing this board for awhile) based on her commentary. I was just asking for clarification.

Hmmm, that's not what I've found. If my daughter were in a mainstream environment with assistive tech., she'd cost far less to educate than she does in her current ASL environment. Somewhere along the lines of $15K a year (max, with FT para and all new tech every year) in the mainstream vs. upwards of $90K a year in an ASL environment. But I think she's getting a far better education, and that's more important than cost-cutting.

$20 for felt chair tip covers, $1000 for a classroom soundfield system if they don't already have one -- are the typical costs for accommodations provided to children with CIs -- vs. $90K a year for tuition and transport my local school district pays to send my daughter to a school for the deaf that provides an ASL environment. My local school system offered a para-professional aide to sit by my child repeating, writing, or clarifying everything said (that adds $12-15K a year) if we opted for mainstreaming, possibly one who knows ASL.

 

[posts from hell]

Hmmm, that's not what I've found. If my daughter were in a mainstream environment with assistive tech., she'd cost far less to educate than she does in her current ASL environment. Somewhere along the lines of $15K a year (max, with FT para and all new tech every year) in the mainstream vs. upwards of $90K a year in an ASL environment. But I think she's getting a far better education, and that's more important than cost-cutting.

$20 for felt chair tip covers, $1000 for a classroom soundfield system if they don't already have one -- are the typical costs for accommodations provided to children with CIs -- vs. $90K a year for tuition and transport my local school district pays to send my daughter to a school for the deaf that provides an ASL environment. My local school system offered a para-professional aide to sit by my child repeating, writing, or clarifying everything said (that adds $12-15K a year) if we opted for mainstreaming, possibly one who knows ASL.

Again, I doubt your numbers are right. (For mainstream numbers)

But however, 95k a year is just unreal. Deaf education shouldn't cost that much.

 

[TheOracle]

I meant, if I were going to develop a school system for all deaf children in the United States, ASL-based education would be the cheapest direct instruction route. When you consider the fact that it doesn't work that way - and the costs associated with separate schools, transport, possible dorms, etc. - then the numbers obviously change. ASL is a natural language that doesn't "need" HA, CI, etc. to function. I think that's where a lot of the tension comes from.

Except...this isn't an assault on ASL, nor is this conversation (the general ASL/Oral/etc convo we have at AD) about language superiority. It's a conversation about what's best for a child.

Do I use Standard Academic English for my direct instruction lectures? Somewhat, but it is not as "language rich" as if I were teaching a classroom full of L1 English students. It can't be. If it were, then my ESL students wouldn't get the content. So I definitely see the complaint with sim-com, SEE, SSS, etc. However, these skills are useful when in the "hearing" world - if not downright required.

So if fj is picking the least restrictive environment for her child using the options available for her, then we need to stop assaulting her on what the potential deficits are in her child's education and start being supportive about how to address them.

Like I pointed out, the ideal teaching environments aren't always accessible. Last year, when I was teaching social studies to an ESL classroom, they all had the *option* of taking a 2 hour bus ride to another school that was bilingual. That's awesome that the district follows the law, but not realistic. I know that I can't give them the best possible instruction with the limitations and tools that I have, but I'll be DAMNED if I don't try.

 

[TheOracle]

Also, the school I was at last year had a school within a school model, where ESL students were separated from the rest of the school for core curriculum. The books and everything were the same, but the method of instruction was different. It was "modified"- the accommodations were built in. ESL kids who are in mainstream struggle even more, because they won't have any accommodations.

I'm not saying that speaking English as a second language is akin to being d/hh, but I'm coming at this from an educator/language standpoint.

For an educator in the US, the questions are -

1. What is the curriculum standard?
2. What are potential roadblocks to teaching it? What are potential roadblocks for a student who is learning?
3. What is the best method of instruction? How many methods should be utilized?
4. How do I know the child knows what they need to?

 

[GrendelQ]

Again, I doubt your numbers are right. (For mainstream numbers)

But however, 95k a year is just unreal. Deaf education shouldn't cost that much.

Do you think costs to mainstream a deaf child with a CI are higher or lower than I estimated for my child? What do you see as the drivers of those costs? PFH, I think you've mentioned before that you have a deaf child in school (mainstream or deaf school?) -- what accommodations does she find helpful?

As part of our IEP process, I've met with my local school to discuss what accommodations were available if we were to mainstream the little one. I've canvassed many parents of children with CIs to see what accommodations they were employing in mainstream environments. In another thread about classroom accommodations, I listed all that I could find as possibilities, although for most children it came down to:

• chair tip covers (or split tennis balls)
• classroom soundfield systems (or some opted for individual FM systems, but not usually in the early grades)
• FT para professional aides (often shifting to PT note takers or CART / CPRINT in certain classes in high school)

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

my daughter's very expensive self-contained oral school costs $45,000 per student (that is not what they charge, because they are heavily supported by charities) and that does not include transportation. I would think any deaf school would cost similarily, regardless of methodology, because of the highly quailified staff and low student ratio.

 

[GrendelQ]

Wirelessly posted

my daughter's very expensive self-contained oral school costs $45,000 per student (that is not what they charge, because they are heavily supported by charities) and that does not include transportation. I would think any deaf school would cost similarily, regardless of methodology, because of the highly quailified staff and low student ratio.

Right, transport alone for us is upwards of $25K a year, so that gets slapped on top of tuition no matter what's covered by state or federal subsidies. And MA just had massive budget cuts that removed all of those unexpectedly this year, so costs leaped -- hopefully they'll find other ways to cover it.

 

[posts from hell]

Do you think costs to mainstream a deaf child with a CI are higher or lower than I estimated for my child? What do you see as the drivers of those costs? PFH, I think you've mentioned before that you have a deaf child in school (mainstream or deaf school?) -- what accommodations does she find helpful?

As part of our IEP process, I've met with my local school to discuss what accommodations were available if we were to mainstream the little one. I've canvassed many parents of children with CIs to see what accommodations they were employing in mainstream environments. In another thread about classroom accommodations, I listed all that I could find as possibilities, although for most children it came down to:

• chair tip covers (or split tennis balls)
• classroom soundfield systems (or some opted for individual FM systems, but not usually in the early grades)
• FT para professional aides (often shifting to PT note takers or CART / CPRINT in certain classes in high school)

Public schools alone are 15k a "normal" student on average. You can ask your friend, FJ to provide the number. She will be more than happy to.

The third thing in your list costs a lot more than what I think you're stating.
A full time para professional aide would cost north of 30k a year, including the benefits etc that the district pays. But in the greater Boston area, I doubt it is just 30k, perhaps 40-50k if you factor all the benefits in.

 

[TheOracle]

wow. denver pays their paras crap, then. most para jobs are just under the required f/t amount. even f/t paras don't get THAT much in benefits.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

wow. denver pays their paras crap, then. most para jobs are just under the required f/t amount. even f/t paras don't get THAT much in benefits.

in utah, paras make about $9.00 an hour and get no benefits (they keep them part time).

also, utah spends less than $5000 a mainstream student.

 

[TheOracle]

paras here get about 9-12/hr, depending on the job. usually there aren't benefits.

 

[GrendelQ]

With regard to base costs of educating kids: I've seen a bit of a higher rate -- $9-$15K -- quoted in this area as the standard $/student rate, but I was only listing costs expended for deaf-ed-specific and accommodations costs. I believe that $9-15K is a sunk cost for the district whether my child stays in district or is placed outside, she's on their books and I don't think they get refunded the x% of salary for teachers, bus drivers, staff, supply & furniture costs because she's not there.

Greater Boston is on a union scale (a very different union from that which covers them out in the boonies where we are), and I think paras are up there at about $16/hr. Not the case where we are at all -- closer to the $9-10 hr rate. A deaf 2nd grader mainstreamed in our elem. school just got his CI last year, when he was 6. He only has one CI, not a lot of language yet, and no para, so they may have been hoping we'd bring Li back to the local school and they'd share the para between the 2 children.

 

[shel90]

You think FJ has been painting a rosy picture of the various academic environments she's been encountering in her quest for one that incorporates both ASL and spoken language?! I think she's made a pretty damning indictment of the state of deaf ed in her area today and has spent the past few years fighting for better education that includes ASL.

That's fine that she does all that but why make that statement? What was the point of it unless someone asked her. Why say "There has been no transfers to the deaf school in the 4 years that Miss kat has been there"?

Ok...what was the point of that? \
it still doesnt mean that there arent children else where that are getting shortchanged in the mainstreamed programs and have to get referred to deaf programs to get their needs met finally.

It just came across as a put down.

How is she an advocate for programs that includes ASL if she supports oral-only programs?

I am not addressing her beliefs or what she has done for her daughter. I am addressing that statement alone. She has made it a few times before and I still dont know why since nobody asked her if there had been transfers of deaf children into that school while her daughter was a student there.

 

[deafdyke]

actually, most kids with CIs can hear. That's the whole point, access to sound, and for the majority, speech understanding without lipreading.

the school was unwilling to provide, or even allow, any sort of auditory training (even one on one in her speech time) or spoken language in the school.

Yes, most kids with CI can hear........And I'd quibble about speech understanding without lipreading. STRONGLY You have to understand that speech understanding with a CI or hearing aid goes DOWN drasticly when in noisy real world situtions (which is why you still have tons and tons of hoh as kids people being into ASL and finding it helpful) or when talking with someone who is not used to speaking with a dhh person.
You keep missing that the school had LIMITED resources! LIMITED.

 

[deafdyke]

think she's made a pretty damning indictment of the state of deaf ed in her area today and has spent the past few years fighting for better education that includes ASL

. That was HER AREA! Not at Kansas School for the Deaf, not Oregon School for the Deaf , not Florida School for the Deaf and Blind, Not NYSSD at Rome (which actually has a lot of kids who use *gasp* CIs and hearing aids orally!

it still doesnt mean that there arent children else where that are getting shortchanged in the mainstreamed programs and have to get referred to deaf programs to get their needs met finally.

Agreed. It's good that there were no transfers to Miss Kat's School, but in many other states it's not that unusual for kids to transfer into Deaf School....As a matter of fact, transfers from the mainstream (either from solotaire, or dhh programs) are very common. It's rare nowadays for kids to spend their entire academic career at a Deaf School!

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

actually, most kids with CIs can hear. That's the whole point, access to sound, and for the majority, speech understanding without lipreading.

the school was unwilling to provide, or even allow, any sort of auditory training (even one on one in her speech time) or spoken language in the school.

Yes, most kids with CI can hear........And I'd quibble about speech understanding without lipreading. STRONGLY You have to understand that speech understanding with a CI or hearing aid goes DOWN drasticly when in noisy real world situtions (which is why you still have tons and tons of hoh as kids people being into ASL and finding it helpful) or when talking with someone who is not used to speaking with a dhh person.
You keep missing that the school had LIMITED resources! LIMITED.

no, the school already employeed the staff, they forbid them to do the appropriate things. They had an slp who had been to aural rehab trainings, but it was against school policy to allow auditory traing. In an iep, the principal used the word "cruel" and said she wouldn't allow it in her school. There were free opportunities to provide what was appropriate, but her dogma was more important.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

You think FJ has been painting a rosy picture of the various academic environments she's been encountering in her quest for one that incorporates both ASL and spoken language?! I think she's made a pretty damning indictment of the state of deaf ed in her area today and has spent the past few years fighting for better education that includes ASL.

That's fine that she does all that but why make that statement? What was the point of it unless someone asked her. Why say "There has been no transfers to the deaf school in the 4 years that Miss kat has been there"?

Ok...what was the point of that? \
it still doesnt mean that there arent children else where that are getting shortchanged in the mainstreamed programs and have to get referred to deaf programs to get their needs met finally.

It just came across as a put down.

How is she an advocate for programs that includes ASL if she supports oral-only programs?

I am not addressing her beliefs or what she has done for her daughter. I am addressing that statement alone. She has made it a few times before and I still dont know why since nobody asked her if there had been transfers of deaf children into that school while her daughter was a student there.

i was simply responding to a statement you made. Your experience has been that there are lots of kids being failed, mine has not.

as for what i support, i support choice and whatever works for your child. I have seen far too much success in what others have dubbed the "wrong ways" to support anything else.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

think she's made a pretty damning indictment of the state of deaf ed in her area today and has spent the past few years fighting for better education that includes ASL

. That was HER AREA! Not at Kansas School for the Deaf, not Oregon School for the Deaf , not Florida School for the Deaf and Blind, Not NYSSD at Rome (which actually has a lot of kids who use *gasp* CIs and hearing aids orally!

it still doesnt mean that there arent children else where that are getting shortchanged in the mainstreamed programs and have to get referred to deaf programs to get their needs met finally.

Agreed. It's good that there were no transfers to Miss Kat's School, but in many other states it's not that unusual for kids to transfer into Deaf School....As a matter of fact, transfers from the mainstream (either from solotaire, or dhh programs) are very common. It's rare nowadays for kids to spend their entire academic career at a Deaf School!

none of those schools provide auditory instruction or spoken language development as part of the curriculum.

 

[posts from hell]

Just a friendly reminder - You don't have to reply to Faire Jour at all. Just ignore her and let her ramble away.

Hopefully we can do that and she goes away into the sunset, and the forum is back to its friendly ways.

 

[Frisky Feline]