Charleston Church Shooting: 9 Dead At Historic Black Church

DeafDucky said:
Well if that is verified as actually his work (and it probably is his), then there we have it...he's already stated before ever getting arrested and sat in front of the detectives/police what his intentions were. So.. CP and I were both wrong.

Just makes me physically ill. He mentions Jews, Eastern Asians and Hispanics as well....nothing about gays or anti-gay people.
Click to expand...
Obviously it was a hate crime. He complained that KKK, skinheads and other hate groups do nothing about it so he decided to do it on his own. I don't know what to say about his parents who apparently don't know his son very well.
 
CrazyPaul said:
Oh, I didn't know that they have statues that are anti-American. They should be destroyed.
Click to expand...

You don't understand about how southerner live with those - they are heritage.

I don't see them as anti-American.
 
I don't see it as anti-American... 600k Americans lost in the Civil War, families divided against each other. Memorials are those whose family members lost in the battlegrounds. South Carolina has history related to Civil War including the first shot of the war in Ft Sumter.

It's sad to see someone vandalize the statue that is designed as a memorial to those who fought and died in that war. There is no mention of hate in that statue and I don't understand why someone would spray paint this.

CrazyPaul said:
Oh, I didn't know that they have statues that are anti-American. They should be destroyed.
Click to expand...
 
Calvin said:
I don't see it as anti-american... 600k Americans lost in the Civil War, families divided against each other. Memorials are those whose family members lost in the battlegrounds. South Carolina has history related to Civil War including the first shot of the war in Ft Sumter.

It's sad to see someone vandalize the statue that is designed as a memorial to those who fought and died in that war. There is no mention of hate in that statue and I don't understand why someone would spray paint this.
Click to expand...

And I believe, but I could be wrong (been a long time since I've been in school), that the Civil War was more about Industrial North vs Agricultural South, than about slavery. I don't think northerners were any less anti-black then the southerners. Again, I could have my facts, or memory of facts, wrong.
 
I'm not sure why more aren't calling this a terrorist attack--a gross act of violence to incite terror in a population. If it was a Muslim man, it would be called that because it is the same thing.
These kinds of racist acts by white people are not new; I have not heard a Black person causing mass violence like this except in protest or riot directly against police brutality. Not to cause terror or harm other citizens, but get their message of respect and anti-racism heard. For some reason white mass murderers are always a 'shock' or considered to have a mental problem, as if it is a surprise every time. It's been a continuous frequency and pattern since the civil rights movement, yet we have done nothing about it but just say how sad it is. No other developed country has this problem of numerous mass murders a year, it's not normal to be accustomed to violence.
Here's a briefer on how the US does not even keep track of the mass killings in the country: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/mass-killings/index.html#title

John Stewart made a really succinct, concerned speech about this as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjzrvRKv6Ks
 
Yes that's correct, til Abraham Lincoln made Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 to free the slavery. That could be a confusing messages that the war was about slavery but it was not at the beginning.

LoveBlue said:
And I believe, but I could be wrong (been a long time since I've been in school), that the Civil War was more about Industrial North vs Agricultural South, than about slavery. I don't think northerners were any less anti-black then the southerners. Again, I could have my facts, or memory of facts, wrong.
Click to expand...
 
hearafters said:
I'm not sure why more aren't calling this a terrorist attack--a gross act of violence to incite terror in a population. If it was a Muslim man, it would be called that because it is the same thing.
These kinds of racist acts by white people are not new; I have not heard a Black person causing mass violence like this except in protest or riot directly against police brutality. Not to cause terror or harm other citizens, but get their message of respect and anti-racism heard. For some reason white mass murderers are always a 'shock' or considered to have a mental problem, as if it is a surprise every time. It's been a continuous frequency and pattern since the civil rights movement, yet we have done nothing about it but just say how sad it is. No other developed country has this problem of numerous mass murders a year, it's not normal to be accustomed to violence.
Here's a briefer on how the US does not even keep track of the mass killings in the country: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/mass-killings/index.html#title

John Stewart made a really succinct, concerned speech about this as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjzrvRKv6Ks
Click to expand...

huge difference between mass killing and terrorism and this does not meet the criteria of terrorism.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/terrorism/terrorism-definition
18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines "international terrorism" and "domestic terrorism" for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled "Terrorism”:

"International terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear to be intended
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.*

"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

18 U.S.C. § 2332b defines the term "federal crime of terrorism" as an offense that:

Is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct; and
Is a violation of one of several listed statutes, including § 930(c) (relating to killing or attempted killing during an attack on a federal facility with a dangerous weapon); and § 1114 (relating to killing or attempted killing of officers and employees of the U.S.).
* FISA defines "international terrorism" in a nearly identical way, replacing "primarily" outside the U.S. with "totally" outside the U.S. 50 U.S.C. § 1801(c).
Click to expand...
 
hearafters said:
I'm not sure why more aren't calling this a terrorist attack--a gross act of violence to incite terror in a population. If it was a Muslim man, it would be called that because it is the same thing.
These kinds of racist acts by white people are not new; I have not heard a Black person causing mass violence like this except in protest or riot directly against police brutality. Not to cause terror or harm other citizens, but get their message of respect and anti-racism heard. For some reason white mass murderers are always a 'shock' or considered to have a mental problem, as if it is a surprise every time. It's been a continuous frequency and pattern since the civil rights movement, yet we have done nothing about it but just say how sad it is. No other developed country has this problem of numerous mass murders a year, it's not normal to be accustomed to violence.
Here's a briefer on how the US does not even keep track of the mass killings in the country: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/mass-killings/index.html#title

John Stewart made a really succinct, concerned speech about this as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjzrvRKv6Ks
Click to expand...
According to your link, at least 52% of the mass killings were family related, not racist.

Not all developed countries are the same size as the USA, so if you're using raw numbers that's not a fair comparison. If you want to use per capita numbers, check back with that data.

Who is "accustomed to violence?"

I don't want to derail this thread any further. You can always create a new thread.
 
Jiro said:
huge difference between mass killing and terrorism and this does not meet the criteria of terrorism.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/terrorism/terrorism-definition
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link to the definition, why would you not think it falls under terrorism though. I feel that it does comply with the criteria for domestic terrorism, only one of the criteria is actually needed, yet imho he fills all :

Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law
--murdered nine innocent civilians

Appear intended
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
--the killer murdered these civilians in an effort to restore power that he felt should rightfully be in the hands of white people. Killing a certain population intimidates the said population into a sense of constant fear because they are now specific targets despite their innocence. If I was in Charleston, a relatively safe city before, I would be watching my back all the time now.

(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
--this man had a manifesto, which declared his exact intentions and goals. Mein Kampf is a manifesto, Das Capital is a manifesto written by lone men--if these are acted on through violence against other citizens, we would all feel like they are trying to influence policy through violent force. Please tell me the difference here, because I do not see it. It as a political racist ideology that he is actively coercing on others through mass violence. This is pretty horrific.

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
-mass destruction of a historic church pivotal to the Black community in Charleston. This is a space of community, where do these people turn to now when their most sacred place is taken from them. This is catastrophic for the vibrant community in Charleston.

Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
-- happened on US soil.

I have a hard time seeing how this is not domestic terrorism. It is a hard pill to swallow that this can be an accurate characterization, but the truth is better than denial. Let me know how you see it though, how is this not a terrorist act.

Hate crimes are not planned, not part of an organized group and tend to be a one-off warning to a marginalized group, not actively murder people and destroy buildings as part of a mobilized ideology consistent with KKK and the Confederacy that has a history of doing the same crime for decades.
 
hearafters said:
Thanks for the link to the definition, why would you not think it falls under terrorism though. I feel that it does comply with the criteria for domestic terrorism, only one of the criteria is actually needed, yet imho he fills all :

Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law
--murdered nine innocent civilians

Appear intended
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
--the killer murdered these civilians in an effort to restore power that he felt should rightfully be in the hands of white people. Killing a certain population intimidates the said population into a sense of constant fear because they are now specific targets despite their innocence. If I was in Charleston, a relatively safe city before, I would be watching my back all the time now.

(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
--this man had a manifesto, which declared his exact intentions and goals. Mein Kampf is a manifesto, Das Capital is a manifesto written by lone men--if these are acted on through violence against other citizens, we would all feel like they are trying to influence policy through violent force. Please tell me the difference here, because I do not see it. It as a political racist ideology that he is actively coercing on others through mass violence. This is pretty horrific.

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
-mass destruction of a historic church pivotal to the Black community in Charleston. This is a space of community, where do these people turn to now when their most sacred place is taken from them. This is catastrophic for the vibrant community in Charleston.

Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
-- happened on US soil.

I have a hard time seeing how this is not domestic terrorism. It is a hard pill to swallow that this can be an accurate characterization, but the truth is better than denial. Let me know how you see it though, how is this not a terrorist act.

Hate crimes are not planned, not part of an organized group and tend to be a one-off warning to a marginalized group, not actively murder people and destroy buildings as part of a mobilized ideology consistent with KKK and the Confederacy that has a history of doing the same crime for decades.
Click to expand...

that's the problem. you "feel". that's not how the system works in here. we don't just "feel" and conveniently fit it however we want it.

it must meet all 3 specific criterias. why is it important to you that this must be characterized as a domestic terrorism? how is it on the same level as an organized hate group like KKK?
 
Jiro said:
that's the problem. you "feel". that's not how the system works in here. we don't just "feel" and conveniently fit it however we want it.

it must meet all 3 specific criterias. why is it important to you that this must be characterized as a domestic terrorism? how is it on the same level as an organized hate group like KKK?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the quick reply. I just characterized how I arrived at that conclusion with evidence, but you pointed at an opening sentence instead of my actual reasons why as I listed above beside the criteria for domestic terrorism. I asked many times for you disprove me because I am open to discussing and being wrong but you have not done so, instead pointing at the word feel, which is not the argument. Not sure why you have not taken up the task of backing up your claim like I have attempted.

But I respectfully digress, continuing this would derail the thread and I am sorry if that is what I am doing. I appreciate you taking time to speak on this though! I honestly meant a healthy discussion, which can be hard on topics like this. Even if it is not an act of terrorism, this is definitely a tragic event that can be hard to talk about clearly, without emotion and find agreement on how to think about it.
 
hearafters said:
. . . If I was in Charleston, a relatively safe city before, I would be watching my back all the time now.
Click to expand...
Well, I do live just outside Charleston, and I don't feel that way at all. If you've been watching the news you'd see that the general population of Charleston is not living in fear. My daughter went downtown tonight without watching her back all the time (no more than usual for any urban area). I'm going downtown on Tuesday and I won't be afraid of the city's streets.

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
-mass destruction of a historic church pivotal to the Black community in Charleston. This is a space of community, where do these people turn to now when their most sacred place is taken from them. This is catastrophic for the vibrant community in Charleston.
Click to expand...
These people turned right back to the same church where the killings happened. They didn't allow their church to be taken from them. It's been a horrible blow to the vibrant community of Charleston but Charleston is not defeated. Charleston's been hit hard in the past (Civil War, earthquake, Hurricane Hugo, the Walter Scott shooting) but is not defeated.

Hate crimes are not planned, not part of an organized group and tend to be a one-off warning to a marginalized group, not actively murder people and destroy buildings as part of a mobilized ideology consistent with KKK and the Confederacy that has a history of doing the same crime for decades.
Click to expand...
From the FBI:

Defining a Hate Crime
A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, Congress has defined a hate crime as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.”

Hate crimes can be planned, can be part of an organized group, and can involve murdering people and destroying buildings.
 
A note from my daughter attending the Bridge to Peace Unity march tonight:

"Such an uplifting energy and show of solidarity. I am honored to be part of this city."

She posted several pictures on her FaceBook (sorry, I can't share them).
 
hearafters said:
Thanks for the quick reply. I just characterized how I arrived at that conclusion with evidence, but you pointed at an opening sentence instead of my actual reasons why as I listed above beside the criteria for domestic terrorism. I asked many times for you disprove me because I am open to discussing and being wrong but you have not done so, instead pointing at the word feel, which is not the argument. Not sure why you have not taken up the task of backing up your claim like I have attempted.

But I respectfully digress, continuing this would derail the thread and I am sorry if that is what I am doing. I appreciate you taking time to speak on this though! I honestly meant a healthy discussion, which can be hard on topics like this. Even if it is not an act of terrorism, this is definitely a tragic event that can be hard to talk about clearly, without emotion and find agreement on how to think about it.
Click to expand...

that's ok. I just find it curious that you want this incident to be characterized as a domestic terrorism. why so?
 
at Shabbat service on Friday in the memorial part we included the victims and survivors of Charleston.

I saw on the news this morning how some the relatives of the victims were talking about forgiveness...it reminded me of the Amish families after that schoolhouse shooting of those kids-
 
Back
Top