Auditory-verbal therapy research claims

jillio said:
**nodding agreement** I feel the same way. I feel that if I see an injustice against a deaf person, and I don't speak out and advocate, then I am less than honorable as a person. The Deaf community is my son's community, and I am obligated to that community for the support they have provided me as a hearing parent, and myson as a Deaf man. Therefore, if I don't keep speaking up when I see wrongs being done, I insult the very community that has been so kind to me.

I am very glad that I was the type of person to question and fight. It made getting my son's educational needs tended to easier, because I just won't take no for an answer. But that was just luck. I don't think that any child should do without services just because they happen to have a parent who doesn't know how to buck the system. It isn't necessarily the parent's fault, but the kid still suffers! And the way I see it, that's WRONG!
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I am part of the system so I am fighting it! LOL!
 
Endymion said:
I agree, but I think there are exceptions. I knew a fellow from India who worked as a marketing executive in the fast food restaurant business. His English was obviously a little off, but he got along fine.

Moving from the anecdotal to a broader scale, think about a lot of the people in academia who speak English as a second language. Many don't have native fluency in English, and they get a lot of respect nonetheless.

In the big picture, though, you're right on that count.
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In regards to your exceptions (of which I agree can be so), but if one didn't know about a person's background, then people might not be so forgiving...;)
 
shel90 said:
Thank u, Jillo. That's the problem I faced growing up with people making assumptions that due to my success with oral language, it will work for all deaf/hoh children. I know very well that is a very wrong assumption and I learned that at a young age when the same approach that worked for me didn't work for my deaf brother. Mind u, we both have 120 dB bilaretal hearing loss. I get so tired of people using me as an example or as a poster child for oral prgrams cuz I was an exception. Also, people forgot to include socio-emotional factors. I grew up with so mch emotional baggage from all the expectations put on me that I needed therapy to help me accept my deafness and the fact that I will never become hearing. Also, I needed ASL growing up and it angers me that I was denied it. I am so glad that I learned it.
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So true. I've always hated it when hearing made assumptions about all deaf when they met me. They'd assume that all deaf liked to read or that they're all decent lip readers etc... Most hearing and deaf don't like to read.

I do not like it when hearing use me to represent all deaf people and my reaction is always one of horror when they do that.
 
shel90 said:
Ok..that's good for her. I was always one of the top readers in my class growing up too. Doesnt mean that I didnt need ASL..looking back, I could have learned a lot more than just "reading" if I had ASL. One example would be the skill of debating or researching. I struggled with those because I never could hear and learn from my hearing peers whenever we had a class debate or discussion about research. I learned all that at Gallaudet with ASL. Yes, reading is important but if that is all your child can do, it could hard when she is older and required to accomplish other skills. I am speaking of the large deaf/hoh population and studies showed that a high percentage of them struggle with literacy skills. Pls dont compare your daughter to a general population like people did with me. They compared me or used me as a justification for their approach and it put too much pressure on me.

U decide whatever approach u feel best for your daughter..all I am asking u to keep the other issues in mind especially when she gets older.
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No Shel, Reading is not all my daughter could do. I used that as an example of her progress in school. I am not an idiot and if i see my daughter struggling in school then you better believe i would do something about it. I understand you work with kids that the CI has failed but the the implant does not work on it's own. It takes alot of work to make it work and that's exactly what i'm doing and so far it's working. Just for your information, there are success stories regarding the CI and it seems that some of you just don't want to see the success stories but the failures instead. Stop being so negative because all your doing is pushing parents away. Opinions are welcome, thats why i am here but don't sit there and be so negative about the good things that we say about our children regarding the CI. I would also like to add hearing with HA is different then hearing with the CI. I assume you used HA growing up. When Kayla wore hearing aids her audiogram showed hearing at 50-60 dbs. With her implant she is at 20dbs across the board, big difference.
 
Just for your information, there are success stories regarding the CI and it seems that some of you just don't want to see the success stories but the failures instead. Stop being so negative because all your doing is pushing parents away. Opinions are welcome, thats why i am here but don't sit there and be so negative about the good things that we say about our children regarding the C
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Kayla1234, don't take it personally.....I think shel is mostly venting... And I mean she's not a Sweetmind (ie extreme anti CI) She's NOT saying that there aren't sucess stories. Just that, just as with hearing aids, results vary enourmously across the board.
I guess too, that she,me and jillo are more targeting our comments towards the parents who are very audist. I've got a lot more to say, but I need to get to bed.......been a long day.
 
kayla123 said:
No Shel, Reading is not all my daughter could do. I used that as an example of her progress in school. I am not an idiot and if i see my daughter struggling in school then you better believe i would do something about it. I understand you work with kids that the CI has failed but the the implant does not work on it's own. It takes alot of work to make it work and that's exactly what i'm doing and so far it's working. Just for your information, there are success stories regarding the CI and it seems that some of you just don't want to see the success stories but the failures instead. Stop being so negative because all your doing is pushing parents away. Opinions are welcome, thats why i am here but don't sit there and be so negative about the good things that we say about our children regarding the CI. I would also like to add hearing with HA is different then hearing with the CI. I assume you used HA growing up. When Kayla wore hearing aids her audiogram showed hearing at 50-60 dbs. With her implant she is at 20dbs across the board, big difference.
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Did u see my posts in the threads made by the parents, like ashleysmommy, Lillysdad, about their daughter's CI progress? I have been positive and encouraging. This is a thread about auditory-verbal training and I am going to talk about my own personal and professional experiences to show why this can not be the only approach to be used on deaf children during their formative years.

If this was a thread about your daughter, I wiud respect it and not say anything negative.

I said good for her didn't I? I am focusing on the kids who lost out on this kind of approach because it is not right. I lost out, my brother lost out and now my students who r delayed in language lost out cuz they have to work thrice as hard. It just seems like people in the oral only field don't want to hear about it and iam gonna make sure they hear about it cuz it is just plain wrong.

No, iam not anti CI and I have mentioned that several times in other threads. If the parents don't like what I have to say or that it scares them away then I am sorry but it is the cold reality. It is not gonna be some dirty secret that needs to be hidden away. Iam speaking up for the children who lost out not for the children who r successful. I don't need to cuz they r already doing fine so far.

My mother ignored my cries for help when I was older about feeling inadequete among my peers cuz she thought it was a typical teenaged pouting session so my issues never got addressed all because nobody warned her or gave her the awareness about the issues. When I entered adulthood, I started having some serious issues with my mental helth like depression and eating disorders. I noticed some thread made by 1 parent about her deaf middle school daughter feeling depressed and even 1 from a kid expressing feeling depressed. All I just want parents of children who r mainstreamed to take their kids seriously of they express themselves feeling sad, isolated, or put down so they won't end up with depression issues later on.

Maybe I should ask..maybe u don't like reading about my, my brother's and my students's struggles' with the oral only approach?


Nope I don't have a lot of good feelings about the oral only approach cuz instead of opening new doors or giving me more, it just limited me. I grew up feeling less than adequate, lost, and not worthy of other people's time.

Iam happy your daughter is doing good and I hope she grows up to be a happy and well adjusted person who feels worthy. Iam sure that as a parent, u will make sure of that.
 
I wanted to add a few more comments but the time to edit it expired....


The new audiologist at my work is deaf with two CIs and I admire her cuz she doesnt push for oral-only approach on kids who have CIs or hoh..she recognizes the importance of ASL because she knows that there is a risk that the children may not have full access to spoken language during their formative years. We need more audiologists like her. If I was anti-CI or negative about CIs, I would look down on her and want her out.

I just have a big distrust of the oral-only field like doctors, audiologists, or other specialists who push for oral-only approach and ban sign language. Growing up, my mom was told by them that I didnt need sign language cuz I was doing fine being oral. I even expressed an interest in attending the deaf school where my brother attended while in middle school cuz I was tired of being left out and having my deafness constantly being brought up in different situations at school. My mom advised with someone (I wish I knew) and u know what that person said? Right there, that person said it wasnt ideal for me to attend the deaf school because I was too smart. Didnt give me a chance to try it. My mom and I were gullible to believe that person. Even recently, about 3 weeks ago, I met one of my neighbors and found out that she has a deaf 18 month old son. She told me that he cant talk so I asked her about exposing him to ASL and she said that the specialists told her that all deaf children must learn to speak before learning ASL. I was floored by that BS the specialists fed her. I tried explaining the importance of ASL and told her about my school but she said she prefered him to learn how to talk, not learn sign language. I backed off..didnt criticize her for her decision cuz it was apparent that she didnt know much about deafness. I just pray that her son will be successful with the oral only approach. I cant force her to do anything but u BET I was furious with the specialists feeding her wrong info. Even here in AD, deafdyke created a thread about her experiences with another forum called the Hearing Exchange and how the person, I believe the moderator of the forum, was pushing for oral only approach and even PMed Deafdyke to stop posting about other approaches like signing and cued speech. To me that show that these specialists do not really understand deaf people's needs..it is about making us hearing like them. It may be a twisted view but I grew up with that attitude from the specialists.

Maybe other deaf people had nothing but positive experiences growing up oral or with CIs..if so, then I am happy for them. I just wish I had the same experiences but I didnt so I am not gonna keep quiet about my experiences or points of views. If that makes me appear negative then imagine how I always felt growing up...negative. I didnt deserve that all because some stupid specialists felt this one way about how I should grow up as. Sure I had some positive experiences and those experiences occured when my deafness was NOT an issue like playing sports...nobody made a fuss about my deafness or my speech skills so I have nothing but great memories of playing sports. Great coaches and great teammates who made me feel worthy.

I have nothing against the parents...yes, I get mad at them sometimes if they refuse to open their mind about other things other than having their child being able to talk and hear but I dont blame them cuz isnt that what everyone wants?

I just get the feeling that if I or other deaf people speak out against CIs or oral only approach, we are viewed as deaf militants and want to keep ourselves isolated from the hearing world. In most cases, that's not true. I still interact with the hearing world but not as much before because I have to work hard at communicating with them as opposed to signing with other signers. In a signing environment, I can relax and not think about how to pronounce my words right or strain my eyes to read what others are saying. With signing, I can engage in conversations naturally so of course, I would rather be in a signing environment. Also, my deafness is not an issue when I am in a signing environment. I find it ironic that my best friend, 3 other deaf people, and I went to the same oral school as toddlers and all 5 of us grew up mainstreamed without ASL only to end up using ASL and interact mostly with signers now.

I am sure your daughter will be successful and grow up happy and well-adjusted with a mother looking out for her. My goal is to make the parents of deaf children be aware of other issues such as socio-emotional, self-worth, recognizing that they are not 100% hearing, and whatever else issues pop up. If the parents dont want to hear what I have to say or dont like it, then should I just keep quiet and pretend that everthing is just great in threads about oral-only approaches like this one?
 
shel90 said:
My mom advised with someone (I wish I knew) and u know what that person said? Right there, that person said it wasnt ideal for me to attend the deaf school because I was too smart. Didnt give me a chance to try it.
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I would agree with whoever said that you are too smart for deaf school...

in my case, I shouldn't have gone to that school which I scored A+ in all courses (I only went there for a year and half) and after that I attended a elementary school which I had to repeat a grade after taking a placement test.(I was furious) and that school I scored A+'s was a oral deaf ed. based school eh.

after a year in that elementary school, I was able to be to go to jr high (middle school) whew! It was challenging experience. and in that oral deaf school, it was ho hum because of A+ grades. so easy! my grades at that elementary school was not all A+ interesting...
 
Boult said:
I would agree with whoever said that you are too smart for deaf school...

in my case, I shouldn't have gone to that school which I scored A+ in all courses (I only went there for a year and half) and after that I attended a elementary school which I had to repeat a grade after taking a placement test.(I was furious) and that school I scored A+'s was a oral deaf ed. based school eh.

after a year in that elementary school, I was able to be to go to jr high (middle school) whew! It was challenging experience. and in that oral deaf school, it was ho hum because of A+ grades. so easy! my grades at that elementary school was not all A+ interesting...
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That's fine ..maybe I was too smart but why not let me try it instead of saying no on the spot? Now, I will never know, know what I mean? I hate that feeling. ...I am the kind of person who hates having "What ifs.." in my life. Ha..

U know what's funny? My mom said almost the same thing when I announced that I wanted to attend Gallaudet University for my grad studies. My mom told me that she thought Gallaudet would be too easy for me but I didnt listen to her cuz my heart was telling me that it was the right thing for me. Turns out that I learned so much more than just academics at Gallaudet. I learned how to respect, value myself and accept my deafness. Sometimes, it is not all about academics but in the case of the deaf school, maybe it wasnt a good idea for me to go since I was still a child and everything.
 
shel90 said:
That's fine ..maybe I was too smart but why not let me try it instead of saying no on the spot? Now, I will never know, know what I mean? I hate that feeling. ...I am the kind of person who hates having "What ifs.." in my life. Ha..

U know what's funny? My mom said almost the same thing when I announced that I wanted to attend Gallaudet University for my grad studies. My mom told me that she thought Gallaudet would be too easy for me but I didnt listen to her cuz my heart was telling me that it was the right thing for me. Turns out that I learned so much more than just academics at Gallaudet. I learned how to respect, value myself and accept my deafness. Sometimes, it is not all about academics but in the case of the deaf school, maybe it wasnt a good idea for me to go since I was still a child and everything.
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during high school, I said I want to go to Gallaudet but I was told that I may not be able to enter Gallaudet (that was coming from a HI teacher who thinks I can't pass HS eh.) but in the end, I went to NTID instead just after finishing 11th grade! So I didn't need Gallaudet and I was glad I didn't too after visiting Gallaudet for various events. I was happy in NTID because it has both of the world there. :)
 
Boult said:
I would agree with whoever said that you are too smart for deaf school...

in my case, I shouldn't have gone to that school which I scored A+ in all courses (I only went there for a year and half) and after that I attended a elementary school which I had to repeat a grade after taking a placement test.(I was furious) and that school I scored A+'s was a oral deaf ed. based school eh.

after a year in that elementary school, I was able to be to go to jr high (middle school) whew! It was challenging experience. and in that oral deaf school, it was ho hum because of A+ grades. so easy! my grades at that elementary school was not all A+ interesting...
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You know, I really have to take offense to the satement that anyone is "too smart" to attend a school for the deaf. That implies that the students attending a deaf school are below average in intelligence, and nothing could be further from the truth. You want to accuse anyone who makes a comment on a con regarding CI as making across the board statements that don't apply to everyone, and then you turn around and make a statement like that!
 
shel90 said:
I wanted to add a few more comments but the time to edit it expired....


The new audiologist at my work is deaf with two CIs and I admire her cuz she doesnt push for oral-only approach on kids who have CIs or hoh..she recognizes the importance of ASL because she knows that there is a risk that the children may not have full access to spoken language during their formative years. We need more audiologists like her. If I was anti-CI or negative about CIs, I would look down on her and want her out.

I just have a big distrust of the oral-only field like doctors, audiologists, or other specialists who push for oral-only approach and ban sign language. Growing up, my mom was told by them that I didnt need sign language cuz I was doing fine being oral. I even expressed an interest in attending the deaf school where my brother attended while in middle school cuz I was tired of being left out and having my deafness constantly being brought up in different situations at school. My mom advised with someone (I wish I knew) and u know what that person said? Right there, that person said it wasnt ideal for me to attend the deaf school because I was too smart. Didnt give me a chance to try it. My mom and I were gullible to believe that person. Even recently, about 3 weeks ago, I met one of my neighbors and found out that she has a deaf 18 month old son. She told me that he cant talk so I asked her about exposing him to ASL and she said that the specialists told her that all deaf children must learn to speak before learning ASL. I was floored by that BS the specialists fed her. I tried explaining the importance of ASL and told her about my school but she said she prefered him to learn how to talk, not learn sign language. I backed off..didnt criticize her for her decision cuz it was apparent that she didnt know much about deafness. I just pray that her son will be successful with the oral only approach. I cant force her to do anything but u BET I was furious with the specialists feeding her wrong info. Even here in AD, deafdyke created a thread about her experiences with another forum called the Hearing Exchange and how the person, I believe the moderator of the forum, was pushing for oral only approach and even PMed Deafdyke to stop posting about other approaches like signing and cued speech. To me that show that these specialists do not really understand deaf people's needs..it is about making us hearing like them. It may be a twisted view but I grew up with that attitude from the specialists.

Maybe other deaf people had nothing but positive experiences growing up oral or with CIs..if so, then I am happy for them. I just wish I had the same experiences but I didnt so I am not gonna keep quiet about my experiences or points of views. If that makes me appear negative then imagine how I always felt growing up...negative. I didnt deserve that all because some stupid specialists felt this one way about how I should grow up as. Sure I had some positive experiences and those experiences occured when my deafness was NOT an issue like playing sports...nobody made a fuss about my deafness or my speech skills so I have nothing but great memories of playing sports. Great coaches and great teammates who made me feel worthy.

I have nothing against the parents...yes, I get mad at them sometimes if they refuse to open their mind about other things other than having their child being able to talk and hear but I dont blame them cuz isnt that what everyone wants?

I just get the feeling that if I or other deaf people speak out against CIs or oral only approach, we are viewed as deaf militants and want to keep ourselves isolated from the hearing world. In most cases, that's not true. I still interact with the hearing world but not as much before because I have to work hard at communicating with them as opposed to signing with other signers. In a signing environment, I can relax and not think about how to pronounce my words right or strain my eyes to read what others are saying. With signing, I can engage in conversations naturally so of course, I would rather be in a signing environment. Also, my deafness is not an issue when I am in a signing environment. I find it ironic that my best friend, 3 other deaf people, and I went to the same oral school as toddlers and all 5 of us grew up mainstreamed without ASL only to end up using ASL and interact mostly with signers now.

I am sure your daughter will be successful and grow up happy and well-adjusted with a mother looking out for her. My goal is to make the parents of deaf children be aware of other issues such as socio-emotional, self-worth, recognizing that they are not 100% hearing, and whatever else issues pop up. If the parents dont want to hear what I have to say or dont like it, then should I just keep quiet and pretend that everthing is just great in threads about oral-only approaches like this one?
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It's always great to hear about the exceptions, but unfortunately, most kids have experiences similar to the ones you had, shel. But the problem is that people are told about the exceptions by the "professionals". and so believe that this is a very realistic goal to set for all deaf children, rather than an ideal that is acheived by very few. The consequence is, children grow up feeling like, and being treated like, they are less than competent because they can't meet some idealistic standard. Its the same thing as the ideal standard that all women should weigh 110 lbs, have long blonde hair, and flawless skin. IT JUST AIN'T REALITY, FOLKS!
 
kayla123 said:
No Shel, Reading is not all my daughter could do. I used that as an example of her progress in school. I am not an idiot and if i see my daughter struggling in school then you better believe i would do something about it. I understand you work with kids that the CI has failed but the the implant does not work on it's own. It takes alot of work to make it work and that's exactly what i'm doing and so far it's working. Just for your information, there are success stories regarding the CI and it seems that some of you just don't want to see the success stories but the failures instead. Stop being so negative because all your doing is pushing parents away. Opinions are welcome, thats why i am here but don't sit there and be so negative about the good things that we say about our children regarding the CI. I would also like to add hearing with HA is different then hearing with the CI. I assume you used HA growing up. When Kayla wore hearing aids her audiogram showed hearing at 50-60 dbs. With her implant she is at 20dbs across the board, big difference.[/QUOTE

Its great that your daughter is doing well at this point. No one here is saying that there is anything negative at all about your choice to implant your daughter. Shel and I are both only trying to say that your experience, at this point, is limited to that which you have had with your daughter, and that does not necessarily mirror the experience that ALL deaf children have. Our experience is more extensive, and rather than attempting to discourage you, we are simply attempting to broaden your view so that you will be better able to recognize and address those problems that occur for the majority of deaf children should your daughter begin to experience them. You need to recognize that your daughter may well be one of the very fortunate few, but the majority of deaf children are not as fortunate as she in her experience, and it is the majority that shel and I and deafdyke are speaking out for. Perhaps you could turn your defensiveness into gratitude, and find some empathy for those who are still struggling; for, I can promise you, they are more numerous than the numbers who have the experiences you speak of.
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jillio said:
kayla123 said:
No Shel, Reading is not all my daughter could do. I used that as an example of her progress in school. I am not an idiot and if i see my daughter struggling in school then you better believe i would do something about it. I understand you work with kids that the CI has failed but the the implant does not work on it's own. It takes alot of work to make it work and that's exactly what i'm doing and so far it's working. Just for your information, there are success stories regarding the CI and it seems that some of you just don't want to see the success stories but the failures instead. Stop being so negative because all your doing is pushing parents away. Opinions are welcome, thats why i am here but don't sit there and be so negative about the good things that we say about our children regarding the CI. I would also like to add hearing with HA is different then hearing with the CI. I assume you used HA growing up. When Kayla wore hearing aids her audiogram showed hearing at 50-60 dbs. With her implant she is at 20dbs across the board, big difference.[/QUOTE

Its great that your daughter is doing well at this point. No one here is saying that there is anything negative at all about your choice to implant your daughter. Shel and I are both only trying to say that your experience, at this point, is limited to that which you have had with your daughter, and that does not necessarily mirror the experience that ALL deaf children have. Our experience is more extensive, and rather than attempting to discourage you, we are simply attempting to broaden your view so that you will be better able to recognize and address those problems that occur for the majority of deaf children should your daughter begin to experience them. You need to recognize that your daughter may well be one of the very fortunate few, but the majority of deaf children are not as fortunate as she in her experience, and it is the majority that shel and I and deafdyke are speaking out for. Perhaps you could turn your defensiveness into gratitude, and find some empathy for those who are still struggling; for, I can promise you, they are more numerous than the numbers who have the experiences you speak of.
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:gpost:
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jillio said:
You know, I really have to take offense to the satement that anyone is "too smart" to attend a school for the deaf. That implies that the students attending a deaf school are below average in intelligence, and nothing could be further from the truth. You want to accuse anyone who makes a comment on a con regarding CI as making across the board statements that don't apply to everyone, and then you turn around and make a statement like that!
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I have noticed that in many other threads that some people look down on deaf schools and the people who attended there. To me, it is like saying all those stuff they said applies to my brother when I know it is not true. I think it was in a locked thread called Mainstreaming Pros and Cons or Deaf Schools or Hearing Schools. I could never understand the disain that some people have about deaf schools and the people that attended there. It was disheartening...
 
I also want to add something else...I am more fascinated with deaf children's knowledge such as explaining a situation that occurs, solving problems, creativity, and critical thinking.

I did a student teaching stint at The Learning Center in Boston and taught first grade. There were 3 boys in the class and they were so inspiring with their wealth of knowledge. One I cant forget is how one of the boys explained in depth why the bottom of the ocean is freezing. He explained that the sun rays couldnt reach the bottom to warm up the water because it was so deep. This is coming from a 6 year old! I was pratically falling out of my seat. Was beautiful!!

For me, the deaf person's abilitiy to hear or speak doesnt really fascinate me. When people tell me how well their kid can speak or hear, in my mind..this is what I am thinking "So what? Can your kid explain in depth about how things in the world work? Can your kid be given a problem and come up with different ways to solve problems?" I am just more interested in the children's knowledges and skills rather than their speech or listening skills.

I know being able to speak and hear are important to a lot of people but arent those tools overrated? That's how I think..

I know this deaf woman who can sign 2 languages and SPEAK like 4 languages...I admire her cuz that is so impressive! Iam not impressed with "Hi how are u." in perfect speech but unable to demonstrate critical thinking skills. I want MORE...

This is not to put anyone down..just showing what fascinates me. All my life, my speech and lipreading skills were what people were so fascinated about..not about my knowledge.
Maybe that can help u understand where I am coming from with all these statements about why I feel using BOTH ASL and spoken language is VERY important for language development.
 
shel90 said:
I also want to add something else...I am more fascinated with deaf children's knowledge such as explaining a situation that occurs, solving problems, creativity, and critical thinking.

I did a student teaching stint at The Learning Center in Boston and taught first grade. There were 3 boys in the class and they were so inspiring with their wealth of knowledge. One I cant forget is how one of the boys explained in depth why the bottom of the ocean is freezing. He explained that the sun rays couldnt reach the bottom to warm up the water because it was so deep. This is coming from a 6 year old! I was pratically falling out of my seat. Was beautiful!!

For me, the deaf person's abilitiy to hear or speak doesnt really fascinate me. When people tell me how well their kid can speak or hear, in my mind..this is what I am thinking "So what? Can your kid explain in depth about how things in the world work? Can your kid be given a problem and come up with different ways to solve problems?" I am just more interested in the children's knowledges and skills rather than their speech or listening skills.

I know being able to speak and hear are important to a lot of people but arent those tools overrated? That's how I think..

I know this deaf woman who can sign 2 languages and SPEAK like 4 languages...I admire her cuz that is so impressive! Iam not impressed with "Hi how are u." in perfect speech but unable to demonstrate critical thinking skills. I want MORE...

This is not to put anyone down..just showing what fascinates me. All my life, my speech and lipreading skills were what people were so fascinated about..not about my knowledge.
Maybe that can help u understand where I am coming from with all these statements about why I feel using BOTH ASL and spoken language is VERY important for language development.
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You are a true educator! Critical thinking skills and ability to understand concepts is what learning is all about. For far too long, we have measured the abilities of deaf people by their skill in memorizing and repeating sounds, or writing words in specific order. We need to start measuring what truly indicates the knowledge a person possesses. I am the same as you in that I am not impressed by anyone who can repeat back to me what they have read in a book. What impresses me is when they can take that knowledge, and apply it to a different and unique situation, and explain why it applies. That is true intelligence.
 
flip said:
Thanks all of you for clearing this out. I did not know that sign language fits the auditory part, too, but sure it makes sense!

This makes me wonder: if a language have moved into the auditory part of the brain before an age at 5, can it move out again? It seems some kids with strong sign langauge in childhood, turn into more SEE type signing after reading lots of books or going mainstream. Something similar goes with some hearing kids, turning deaf, and becoming strong sign language users. Or CODAS that signs first, then become talkers later. What is going on here, in the auditory part of brain?

And one last questions. Many deaf kids are not exposured to a full language before they enter deaf school at age 6. Where will the language they learn go in the brain? I have seen a deaf kid age 6 with no language develop prior to entering school, develop very quickly with sign language interactions, but wonders if it perhaps is "too late" in some areas, and then, in what areas.

Hope I did not ask too heavy questions!
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Baloney..... my parents were deaf.. I was born HOH... my first langauges was ASL before i learned to speak...
 
shel90 said:
I also want to add something else...I am more fascinated with deaf children's knowledge such as explaining a situation that occurs, solving problems, creativity, and critical thinking.

I did a student teaching stint at The Learning Center in Boston and taught first grade. There were 3 boys in the class and they were so inspiring with their wealth of knowledge. One I cant forget is how one of the boys explained in depth why the bottom of the ocean is freezing. He explained that the sun rays couldnt reach the bottom to warm up the water because it was so deep. This is coming from a 6 year old! I was pratically falling out of my seat. Was beautiful!!

For me, the deaf person's abilitiy to hear or speak doesnt really fascinate me. When people tell me how well their kid can speak or hear, in my mind..this is what I am thinking "So what? Can your kid explain in depth about how things in the world work? Can your kid be given a problem and come up with different ways to solve problems?" I am just more interested in the children's knowledges and skills rather than their speech or listening skills.

I know being able to speak and hear are important to a lot of people but arent those tools overrated? That's how I think..

I know this deaf woman who can sign 2 languages and SPEAK like 4 languages...I admire her cuz that is so impressive! Iam not impressed with "Hi how are u." in perfect speech but unable to demonstrate critical thinking skills. I want MORE...

This is not to put anyone down..just showing what fascinates me. All my life, my speech and lipreading skills were what people were so fascinated about..not about my knowledge.
Maybe that can help u understand where I am coming from with all these statements about why I feel using BOTH ASL and spoken language is VERY important for language development.
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Yeah.. I agree with you completely.... ASL was my first langauge... when i was 5 yrs old i learned to speak... and know some Chekeroee sign langauges.. my father was born deaf.. very fluent in Chekoree sign langauge and Asl.... when i moved to California.. I learned mexican sign langauge when i work with domestic violence....
 
deafdyke said:
I mean she's not a Sweetmind (ie extreme anti CI) ....
I guess too, that she,me and jillo are more targeting our comments towards the parents who are very audist. I've got a lot more to say, but I need to get to bed.......been a long day.
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What, there is another person like Sourmindless! Please do not say that even in jest!

Exactly who are the "audist" parents that you fell you must target. Maybe I missed someone's posts but I do not recall reading anyone saying that all children should be raised oral only or that learning a manual language was wrong. On this board at least, it seems that the parents who seem most tolerant and accepting of diversity in the deaf community are the ones who have exposed their children to both oral and manual language development.
 
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