Auditory-verbal therapy research claims

[shel90]

That's not always the case Shel. I am a volunteer at my daughters school and that was not the case at all. When the kids started blending words together and reading and writing sentences, i thought Kayla would have a harder time then some of the other kids. She is one of the top readers in her class. Her teacher and i are so proud of her. She is very determined and always has been.

Ok..that's good for her. I was always one of the top readers in my class growing up too. Doesnt mean that I didnt need ASL..looking back, I could have learned a lot more than just "reading" if I had ASL. One example would be the skill of debating or researching. I struggled with those because I never could hear and learn from my hearing peers whenever we had a class debate or discussion about research. I learned all that at Gallaudet with ASL. Yes, reading is important but if that is all your child can do, it could hard when she is older and required to accomplish other skills. I am speaking of the large deaf/hoh population and studies showed that a high percentage of them struggle with literacy skills. Pls dont compare your daughter to a general population like people did with me. They compared me or used me as a justification for their approach and it put too much pressure on me.

U decide whatever approach u feel best for your daughter..all I am asking u to keep the other issues in mind especially when she gets older.

 

[shel90]

Welcome! We always seem to be on the same page with the educational issues, and the fact that there are many, many variables involved that detrmine success.

Yea, I know!

Before going to grad school at Gallaudet, I used to think opposite or think "one size fits all" but I had great professors and great classes that really opened my eyes to a lot of issues. It was like a "wake-up" call for me.

 

[jillio]

Yea, I know!

Before going to grad school at Gallaudet, I used to think opposite or think "one size fits all" but I had great professors and great classes that really opened my eyes to a lot of issues. It was like a "wake-up" call for me.

We've both had our wake up call! I think that's why we keep trying to make others aware of the things they maybe haven't considered.

 

[samantha kennel]

thanks Boult

thanks Boult for the av comments my son attends university of Akron and I know Carol Fletcher personally my son also has Dr.Denise Wray.THey are amazing professors and DRs.He has thrived so much through av theropy he only attends once a week.for one hour a week the rest is up to us as parentsa to implament it in teh house.I do not over theropy my child but he does need theropy . he is now only 3 months behind in speech. I can only praise the University of Akron!!!!

 

[shel90]

We've both had our wake up call! I think that's why we keep trying to make others aware of the things they maybe haven't considered.

Yea, but it seems like they either dont get it or dont want to and there could be more deaf kids out there suffering. I dont want to judge anyone about it but u have a deaf son who thrived on ASL and I am deaf who grew up with the oral-only approach and it feels like many of them dont really want to take what we have to say seriously. We both had years of years of experience personally and professionally with the issues of deaf education. They are just starting out..

To emphasize..I said many so I am not talking about ALL parents here..ok?

 

[shel90]

Ok..that's good for her. I was always one of the top readers in my class growing up too. Doesnt mean that I didnt need ASL..looking back, I could have learned a lot more than just "reading" if I had ASL. One example would be the skill of debating or researching. I struggled with those because I never could hear and learn from my hearing peers whenever we had a class debate or discussion about research. I learned all that at Gallaudet with ASL. Yes, reading is important but if that is all your child can do, it could hard when she is older and required to accomplish other skills. I am speaking of the large deaf/hoh population and studies showed that a high percentage of them struggle with literacy skills. Pls dont compare your daughter to a general population like people did with me. They compared me or used me as a justification for their approach and it put too much pressure on me.

U decide whatever approach u feel best for your daughter..all I am asking u to keep the other issues in mind especially when she gets older.

I dont think that sentence looks right...it didnt come out the way I intented it to be...let me see if I can put it a better way...

I meant to say that yes, there are deaf people who do fine with reading using the auditory-therapy approach but many deaf children dont and by the time the specialists or parents realize that, a lot of years of language development is lost and the children themselves are the one who will have to end up even working MUCH harder to develop reading and writing skills.

Your daughter does have to work harder to acquire reading skills cuz she doenst have the hearing to catch everything being said in her environment. Maybe it is NOT much harder but harder, regardless. That's why deaf children go to speech therapy so from my own personal experience, speech therapy is a LOT of work as opposed to hearing kids being able to hear the language around without naturally. Deaf children have to work harder..if not, then there would be no need for speech therapy, hmm?

Everything else I said in my quoted post was said correctly so it still stands.

 

[jillio]

Yea, but it seems like they either dont get it or dont want to and there could be more deaf kids out there suffering. I dont want to judge anyone about it but u have a deaf son who thrived on ASL and I am deaf who grew up with the oral-only approach and it feels like many of them dont really want to take what we have to say seriously. We both had years of years of experience personally and professionally with the issues of deaf education. They are just starting out..

To emphasize..I said many so I am not talking about ALL parents here..ok?

That's why I think that it all comes down to a lack of acceptance of their child as deaf most of the time. If they fully accepted their child as a deaf individual, they would understand as well that the people who can offer the most guidance are those that have been there. I know that the guidance I received from deaf adults made me aware of so many things that the so called professionals never even considered, because the professional approach was from a hearing perspective. The professionals generally offer advise on how to correct the lack of auditory function or use of oral language. The Deaf community teaches one how to live a full, productive, and satisfying life without hearing and often times without speaking. Hearing professionals see something missing in that life, Deaf people teach that it is just as satisfying and productive as a life with hearing. I pesonally believe that any parent who holds on to the idea that their child will be the one exception to the rule is still denying their child's deafness. Once one has accepted their child's deafness, there is no need to make them the exception, because they are already equal (even if different) to their hearing peers. Acceptance means that you don't have to make your child whole by giving them a semblance to something that they are missing--they are already whole. Personally, I think it is a much more valuable skill to learn to live with one's deafness in a way that the deafness does not limit their possibilities. And you and I both have had the experiences that let us know that one can id as Deaf, and still be success and productive. Its not the deafness that is impairing our young children. Its the coping skills they are being taught that place the limits on them. I find it very, very sad because it is the child who suffers as a result. Not bad enough that they have to learn to live as a deaf person in a majority hearing world, but then we disable them further by not allowing them to learn to do that in a way that is most natural for them. The message being given is, "Its okay to be deaf--but its better to be hearing." What kind of a message is that to give a child?

Sorry--got on my soapbox again!

 

[shel90]

That's why I think that it all comes down to a lack of acceptance of their child as deaf most of the time. If they fully accepted their child as a deaf individual, they would understand as well that the people who can offer the most guidance are those that have been there. I know that the guidance I received from deaf adults made me aware of so many things that the so called professionals never even considered, because the professional approach was from a hearing perspective. The professionals generally offer advise on how to correct the lack of auditory function or use of oral language. The Deaf community teaches one how to live a full, productive, and satisfying life without hearing and often times without speaking. Hearing professionals see something missing in that life, Deaf people teach that it is just as satisfying and productive as a life with hearing. I pesonally believe that any parent who holds on to the idea that their child will be the one exception to the rule is still denying their child's deafness. Once one has accepted their child's deafness, there is no need to make them the exception, because they are already equal (even if different) to their hearing peers. Acceptance means that you don't have to make your child whole by giving them a semblance to something that they are missing--they are already whole. Personally, I think it is a much more valuable skill to learn to live with one's deafness in a way that the deafness does not limit their possibilities. And you and I both have had the experiences that let us know that one can id as Deaf, and still be success and productive. Its not the deafness that is impairing our young children. Its the coping skills they are being taught that place the limits on them. I find it very, very sad because it is the child who suffers as a result. Not bad enough that they have to learn to live as a deaf person in a majority hearing world, but then we disable them further by not allowing them to learn to do that in a way that is most natural for them. The message being given is, "Its okay to be deaf--but its better to be hearing." What kind of a message is that to give a child?
Sorry--got on my soapbox again!

That was the message I grew up with which is why I had all these emotional issues even though I did well academically. Socially and emotionally, I was a mess..big time mess cuz I was so jealous of my hearing peers of being able to hear and becoming very depressed about not being able to keep up in conversations, understand what was being said in class, participating in class discussion, giving out speeches on reports only to have my class laugh at me cuz my speech wasnt so perfect, not being able to talk on the phone like my friends could, getting reprimanded by teachers for not being able to follow what they are saying hence getting marks on my report cards as having problems with daydreaming, bieng the last one to know what is going on, having people getting impatient with me for not understanding them the first time...the list goes on and on. Too much stress dealing with all those issues only because the specialist told my mom that I didnt need ASL. I have spent so many nights crying because it seemed that everyone around me was happier than me all because they can hear and I cant.

I asked my deaf brother, who went to a deaf school since he was 5, if he had to deal with any of those issues I listed above and he looked at me like "I have no idea what u are talking about." He had no concept of what it was like cuz he grew up with people like him and grew up with ASL and having full access to language and discussions in his classes. The only issue he struggled with was learning how to read and write appropriately and I dont hold his school at fault for it. I hold the fact that he lost out on a full language development during his first 5 years trying to learn how to communicate using spoken English at fault. Why do I blame it? He couldnt pick up on oral language. Because he was doing so badly in his kindergarten class at the school I went to with, his IEP team had to refer him to the deaf school. That was the BEST thing any specialist did for him. He told me that he loved going to school because he was bored at home due to nobody knowing sign language. On the other hand, I hated going to school so I would play sick so many times. Go figure.

No wonder I want little to do with the non-signing world.

I was going to ask u "Have these professionals ever lived with what it is like to be deaf or have deaf relatives, especially children?" Then I was gonna ask...why do many parents listen to them more than to the people who actually experienced it personally? U already answered it.

 

[jillio]

That was the message I grew up with which is why I had all these emotional issues even though I did well academically. Socially and emotionally, I was a mess..big time mess cuz I was so jealous of my hearing peers of being able to hear and becoming very depressed about not being able to keep up in conversations, understand what was being said in class, participating in class discussion, giving out speeches on reports only to have my class laugh at me cuz my speech wasnt so perfect, not being able to talk on the phone like my friends could, getting reprimanded by teachers for not being able to follow what they are saying hence getting marks on my report cards as having problems with daydreaming, bieng the last one to know what is going on, having people getting impatient with me for not understanding them the first time...the list goes on and on. Too much stress dealing with all those issues only because the specialist told my mom that I didnt need ASL. I have spent so many nights crying because it seemed that everyone around me was happier than me all because they can hear and I cant.

I asked my deaf brother, who went to a deaf school since he was 5, if he had to deal with any of those issues I listed above and he looked at me like "I have no idea what u are talking about." He had no concept of what it was like cuz he grew up with people like him and grew up with ASL and having full access to language and discussions in his classes. The only issue he struggled with was learning how to read and write appropriately and I dont hold his school at fault for it. I hold the fact that he lost out on a full language development during his first 5 years trying to learn how to communicate using spoken English at fault. Why do I blame it? He couldnt pick up on oral language. Because he was doing so badly in his kindergarten class at the school I went to with, his IEP team had to refer him to the deaf school. That was the BEST thing any specialist did for him. He told me that he loved going to school because he was bored at home due to nobody knowing sign language. On the other hand, I hated going to school so I would play sick so many times. Go figure.

No wonder I want little to do with the non-signing world.

I was going to ask u "Have these professionals ever lived with what it is like to be deaf or have deaf relatives, especially children?" Then I was gonna ask...why do many parents listen to them more than to the people who actually experienced it personally? U already answered it.

To have lived through that, and turn it into a positive where you are helping deaf kids so they don't have to go through what you did makes you a very special, very strong person!

 

[deafdyke]

Also, people forgot to include socio-emotional factors. I grew up with so mch emotional baggage from all the expectations put on me that I needed therapy to help me accept my deafness and the fact that I will never become hearing.

AMEN!!!!! That's exactly what I've been trying to articualte to parents of "oral" only kids. Even many "superstars" have HUGE social emotional baggage. I mean oral only skills do not totally equalize a dhh kid at ALL!
Like, how the heck can kids develop good self esteem when they are CONSTANTLY being corrected on their speech? How can they develop good self esteem when people think we're MR b/c of the quality of their voice? I STILL get that, and I got 660 on the Verbal SATs. How can we develop good self esteem when we're being yelled at b/c we can't hear to modulate our voice? I STILL get that.......how the heck can we develop good self esteem when we're being teased about our voices? Oral only DOES NOT and CAN NOT totally equalize dhh kids. Sure, there are some standouts.....but overall, hoh kids' acheievement levels are STILL relatively low! We have very high rates of drug and alchohl abuse. (people who abuse to "deaden the pain of not fitting in 100%)
Samantha Kennel, please do listen to us. Many of us were "sucessful" oralists just like your son. Nobody here's bashing oral skills........we're just asking why the development of oral skills, comes at such a high cost. Even many if not most of the "superstars" have HUGE HUGE interpersonal relationship issues.
I remember going to a Hoh kids conference. Two of the kids (actually oral deaf) were stereotypical academic superstars. One of them wanted to go to an Ivy League College, and the other wanted to be a lawyer. Both of them had HUGE interpersonal issues. That's usually the #1 issue facing oral dhh kids....socialization and emotional issues.
Please.......many of our parents say they wish they'd learned Sign earlier as well. You don't want to look back and think "I should have listened to those adults. I should have learned Sign along with speech."
You can add Sign on an enrichment basis....who knows? Maybe he could perform at supergenius levels with Sign.

 

[shel90]

AMEN!!!!! That's exactly what I've been trying to articualte to parents of "oral" only kids. Even many "superstars" have HUGE social emotional baggage. I mean oral only skills do not totally equalize a dhh kid at ALL!
Like, how the heck can kids develop good self esteem when they are CONSTANTLY being corrected on their speech? How can they develop good self esteem when people think we're MR b/c of the quality of their voice? I STILL get that, and I got 660 on the Verbal SATs. How can we develop good self esteem when we're being yelled at b/c we can't hear to modulate our voice? I STILL get that.......how the heck can we develop good self esteem when we're being teased about our voices? Oral only DOES NOT and CAN NOT totally equalize dhh kids. Sure, there are some standouts.....but overall, hoh kids' acheievement levels are STILL relatively low! We have very high rates of drug and alchohl abuse. (people who abuse to "deaden the pain of not fitting in 100%)
Samantha Kennel, please do listen to us. Many of us were "sucessful" oralists just like your son. Nobody here's bashing oral skills........we're just asking why the development of oral skills, comes at such a high cost. Even many if not most of the "superstars" have HUGE HUGE interpersonal relationship issues.
I remember going to a Hoh kids conference. Two of the kids (actually oral deaf) were stereotypical academic superstars. One of them wanted to go to an Ivy League College, and the other wanted to be a lawyer. Both of them had HUGE interpersonal issues. That's usually the #1 issue facing oral dhh kids....socialization and emotional issues.
Please.......many of our parents say they wish they'd learned Sign earlier as well. You don't want to look back and think "I should have listened to those adults. I should have learned Sign along with speech."
You can add Sign on an enrichment basis....who knows? Maybe he could perform at supergenius levels with Sign.

I told my mom about this site and about many parents of deaf kids registering here. U know what my mom said? She told me to pls tell them not to be stupid like she was with her decision of banning signing for me.

 

[Endymion]

My knowledge of economic theories is sadly limited to the way those theories apply and are adapted to psychological and sociological phenomena. I've a good grasp of statistics, and social psychology uses many economic theories to explain both group and individual decision making processes. Sociology uses an adaptation of Marxist theory to explain deviance and criminality, as well. I'd like to hear more about your research. Always up for learning something new!

Economics is broadly applicable with many of the social sciences. I've heard of research that examines the fiscal equivalent of sex once a week for an individual's quality of life. Someone I know just did an undergraduate honors thesis on childhood obesity trends and school demographics.

One of my favorite interdisciplinary areas is the economics-literature crossover. Topics like socioeconomic status or economics of marriage in Pride and Prejudice and Taming of the Shrew come to mind quickly, but topics such as bartering superior genetics for social acceptance in Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land are not unique too.

What are you currently studying? Are you a graduate or doctoral student? And sure, I'll send you a PM about my work soon!

 

[Endymion]

If u come up with something, let me know! Yea, I used to think that deaf people with poor English skills were not so smart until I learned ASL and then started interacting with them. I was floored by how intelligent many of them were despite their inability to show it through their writings.

Your and Jillo's writing style is the kind I would love to achieve someday. I can understand the message you both are conveying but I cant express my thoughts to that level of writing. Know what I mean? I try to write using a lot of terminology but it just never comes out right. Oh well...

I remember I had a deaf friend who I often went snowboarding with long ago. One time we went to a resort with a huge number of parking lots and a bus that shuttled passengers to the slopes. The problem? I forgot where we parked! My friend and I went to every single parking spot, and I was floored by how he found our car. He had a mental snapshot of the correct parking area and identified the right lot just by comparing angles at which the cars intersected with the sidewalk and the bus!

That's with only a cursory glance or two at the lot before we left for the slopes. Impressive fellow. He struggled tremendously with his English, however.

 

[Endymion]

That was the message I grew up with which is why I had all these emotional issues even though I did well academically. Socially and emotionally, I was a mess..big time mess cuz I was so jealous of my hearing peers of being able to hear and becoming very depressed about not being able to keep up in conversations, understand what was being said in class, participating in class discussion, giving out speeches on reports only to have my class laugh at me cuz my speech wasnt so perfect, not being able to talk on the phone like my friends could, getting reprimanded by teachers for not being able to follow what they are saying hence getting marks on my report cards as having problems with daydreaming, bieng the last one to know what is going on, having people getting impatient with me for not understanding them the first time...the list goes on and on. Too much stress dealing with all those issues only because the specialist told my mom that I didnt need ASL. I have spent so many nights crying because it seemed that everyone around me was happier than me all because they can hear and I cant.

I asked my deaf brother, who went to a deaf school since he was 5, if he had to deal with any of those issues I listed above and he looked at me like "I have no idea what u are talking about." He had no concept of what it was like cuz he grew up with people like him and grew up with ASL and having full access to language and discussions in his classes. The only issue he struggled with was learning how to read and write appropriately and I dont hold his school at fault for it. I hold the fact that he lost out on a full language development during his first 5 years trying to learn how to communicate using spoken English at fault. Why do I blame it? He couldnt pick up on oral language. Because he was doing so badly in his kindergarten class at the school I went to with, his IEP team had to refer him to the deaf school. That was the BEST thing any specialist did for him. He told me that he loved going to school because he was bored at home due to nobody knowing sign language. On the other hand, I hated going to school so I would play sick so many times. Go figure.

No wonder I want little to do with the non-signing world.

I was going to ask u "Have these professionals ever lived with what it is like to be deaf or have deaf relatives, especially children?" Then I was gonna ask...why do many parents listen to them more than to the people who actually experienced it personally? U already answered it.

I think another problem is that there's the image of the deaf militant that a lot of mainstream society tends to encounter (for example, the image that came out in the public eye during the Gallaudet protests in 2006). This hurts the signing, etc. image when parents are considering options.

I realize that some of the image is substantiated (you've got your pushy crazies in any social group), but a good PR campaign can work the excess down some.

Kudos to you for making it through all that, though!!!

 

[Endymion]

This problem is not exclusive to deaf people. Anybody with poor English skills are subject to that kind of perception by others. I guess first impressions will always be important regardless whether deserved or not.

I agree, but I think there are exceptions. I knew a fellow from India who worked as a marketing executive in the fast food restaurant business. His English was obviously a little off, but he got along fine.

Moving from the anecdotal to a broader scale, think about a lot of the people in academia who speak English as a second language. Many don't have native fluency in English, and they get a lot of respect nonetheless.

In the big picture, though, you're right on that count.

 

[Boult]

wow at those derailing this thread eh..

 

[jillio]

Economics is broadly applicable with many of the social sciences. I've heard of research that examines the fiscal equivalent of sex once a week for an individual's quality of life. Someone I know just did an undergraduate honors thesis on childhood obesity trends and school demographics.

One of my favorite interdisciplinary areas is the economics-literature crossover. Topics like socioeconomic status or economics of marriage in Pride and Prejudice and Taming of the Shrew come to mind quickly, but topics such as bartering superior genetics for social acceptance in Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land are not unique too.

What are you currently studying? Are you a graduate or doctoral student? And sure, I'll send you a PM about my work soon!

Doctoral in clinical psychology.

 

[jillio]

I remember I had a deaf friend who I often went snowboarding with long ago. One time we went to a resort with a huge number of parking lots and a bus that shuttled passengers to the slopes. The problem? I forgot where we parked! My friend and I went to every single parking spot, and I was floored by how he found our car. He had a mental snapshot of the correct parking area and identified the right lot just by comparing angles at which the cars intersected with the sidewalk and the bus!

That's with only a cursory glance or two at the lot before we left for the slopes. Impressive fellow. He struggled tremendously with his English, however.

Excellent illustration of the visual/spatial form of information processing. When my son was just 5 or 6 years old, I could drive somewhere he had never been, and he could tell me how to get back home.

 

[shel90]

To have lived through that, and turn it into a positive where you are helping deaf kids so they don't have to go through what you did makes you a very special, very strong person!

Jillo...yea, it is my passion and it is almost becoming obsession at this point.

People tell me that other people's deaf/hoh children arent my children so why do I let it bother me? Two reasons...

1. Too many deaf/hoh people have low paying jobs or have no jobs and are collecting SSDI because they couldnt pass the tests required to get their GEDs or high school diplomas simply cuz of their poor reading and writing skills. I have met many deaf people in those situations and they are intelligent people but dont have the same opportunities due to the failure of developing a language before the age of 5. Now, with the new law..NCLB with all these standardizing tests? That is gonna get ugly if not already?

2. The general public puts so much blame on us teachers and deaf schools for the low reading and writing skills of the children so it becomes personal. I have personally experienced parents bitching at me why their children arent reading and writing at their age appropriate levels but dont really work with their children at home or specialists who advocate oral only programs put down deaf schools but when they were just as much as fault for children being delayed in language if not more. Now with this new law, if our students arent passing the tests, then we teachers are held liable..I DO not like that cuz I see many of us working so hard with deaf/hoh. Yes, there are some lousy teachers out there just as there are lousy teachers working with hearing children but that's a small number in the teaching field.

 

[jillio]

Jillo...yea, it is my passion and it is almost becoming obsession at this point.

People tell me that other people's deaf/hoh children arent my children so why do I let it bother me? Two reasons...

1. Too many deaf/hoh people have low paying jobs or have no jobs and are collecting SSDI because they couldnt pass the tests required to get their GEDs or high school diplomas simply cuz of their poor reading and writing skills. I have met many deaf people in those situations and they are intelligent people but dont have the same opportunities due to the failure of developing a language before the age of 5. Now, with the new law..NCLB with all these standardizing tests? That is gonna get ugly if not already?

2. The general public puts so much blame on us teachers and deaf schools for the low reading and writing skills of the children so it becomes personal. I have personally experienced parents bitching at me why their children arent reading and writing at their age appropriate levels but dont really work with their children at home or specialists who advocate oral only programs put down deaf schools but when they were just as much as fault for children being delayed in language if not more. Now with this new law, if our students arent passing the tests, then we teachers are held liable..I DO not like that cuz I see many of us working so hard with deaf/hoh. Yes, there are some lousy teachers out there just as there are lousy teachers working with hearing children but that's a small number in the teaching field.

**nodding agreement** I feel the same way. I feel that if I see an injustice against a deaf person, and I don't speak out and advocate, then I am less than honorable as a person. The Deaf community is my son's community, and I am obligated to that community for the support they have provided me as a hearing parent, and myson as a Deaf man. Therefore, if I don't keep speaking up when I see wrongs being done, I insult the very community that has been so kind to me.

I am very glad that I was the type of person to question and fight. It made getting my son's educational needs tended to easier, because I just won't take no for an answer. But that was just luck. I don't think that any child should do without services just because they happen to have a parent who doesn't know how to buck the system. It isn't necessarily the parent's fault, but the kid still suffers! And the way I see it, that's WRONG!