Auditory-verbal therapy research claims

[shel90]

There you go.... I completely agree with you.... YOu had been there as oralist.. you went through lots of frustrations...
Then you learned the sign langauges... you feel like you finally broke the barrier??? I mean the barrier crumbled down....you now feel comfortable with sign langauges,,,I am sure you still speak to hearies,, is ok about it... I feel that you like sign langauges better..
Am I right???? you have good posting.

My first langauges was ASL... at age of 5 I learned to speak... I was HOH... i feel more comfortable with ASL.....

Yea..I feel much more comfortable with ASL. One time when I was in my 20s (before I learned ASL), I went to a spa with my friends. The masseuage commented on how extremely tense my shoulders were. He told me to relax or loosen up but I couldn't. Well, about 2 years ago, I went to get a massage and remembering what the other masseuage said, I asked this one about my shoulders..she said they were relaxed. It made me wonder if I was always tense growing up due to having to deal with miscommunication constantly? I remember that I used to have this ball of tight feeling in my stomach whenever I am chatting with friends or strangers..now with signers, I don't feel it but whenever I am in a non signing environment, it comes back.

With ASL, I am completely relaxed and don't think about how well r others able to understand me or how much information iam getting from others.

Yes, I still talk to hearies..such as my family and few old school friends but on a limited basis or mostly thru email. I have nothing against people who don't sign and I am ok with geting together with them on a one on one basis but in a group situation...I prefer not. I just feel a lot closer to people who sign whether they r hearing or not.

 

[deafdyke]

I think you should also know that many of my daughter's friends do know sign and that she is learning as well.

Whether you or your friends think she is part of the deaf community or not, is something she cannot control but the reality is that she and her friends are deaf and share a bond with each other. If you cannot welcome these people into your community then the loss is yours, not theirs but they are definitely part of some deaf community.

Actually shel90, second language ASLers ARE a part of the Deaf community. I know that the research indicates that the gross majority of "oral" kids DO eventually learn ASL.
I grew up oral, but consider myself "very" deaf. I think the only dhh people who aren't part of the deaf community, are the ones who look down on ASL. I think right now the debate is over which language should be the child's first language, and when the second language should be introduced. There's nothing wrong with chosing oral FIRST!

 

[shel90]

Actually shel90, second language ASLers ARE a part of the Deaf community. I know that the research indicates that the gross majority of "oral" kids DO eventually learn ASL.
I grew up oral, but consider myself "very" deaf. I think the only dhh people who aren't part of the deaf community, are the ones who look down on ASL. I think right now the debate is over which language should be the child's first language, and when the second language should be introduced. There's nothing wrong with chosing oral FIRST!

Choosing oral first and then the kids learn ASL later? Is that what u r saying? If so..good luck to those who r unable to pick up on oral languages for whatever reasons cuz when they learn ASL later, they already have missed years of language development. That's what happened with my students.

Rick kept saying his daughter and her friends r oral so I assumed they didn't know any sign language at all. That's the assumption I based on when I said they r not a part of the (signing) deaf community. If they are learning sign language then of course they r part of the signing community (aka Deaf community). I was just thinking if oral deaf people who say they don't need to learn sign language and trying to be a part of the signing community and how that would work if there is a communication barrier? That was what I was thinking..just like if hearing people want to be a part of the deaf community, they will need to learn sign language eventually.

DD..I prefer that sign and oral to be introduced to the deaf child at the same time. Like the child goes to a signing school cuz the parents will be learning sign if as well if they choose to learn and then the parents be the models for spoken language. That's what I would like to see.

 

[shel90]

Shel,

I am not arguing with you either! Thanks for that post from Cloggy because it does help me to better understand what you are saying.

Let me just step back and say two things as clear as I can. We have always involved our child with the deaf community from day one and have always viewed that as extremely impoartant. She has not grown up in a family that pretends she is not deaf. She was deaf before her ci and is still deaf with it but it does allow her to hear and has allowed her along with very good speech reading abilities, to speak.

Second, frame of reference is very important, my daughter was implanted in 1989 at a time when there were less than 500 kids nationwide with cis. I have already told you of the horrible things that we, as her parents and she, as our child were called by the Deaf community. We had so called "Deaf leaders" such as Harlan Lane comment on our decision to implant our daughter even though he has never met either her or us. I already mentioned what the then NAD President said about our ci decision. So when you tell me that I should understand how some people may feel "threatned" by our decision, my only response is to tell them to "get over it" and realize that for us, it has and never will be about them and their community but always about what was and is best for our daughter.

If they cannot understand nor accept that, then it really is their problem.

Again, Shel not arguing with you, just trying to let you see where I am coming from
Rick

Yea I am beginning to see where u r coming from. Honestly, from your comments about calling your daughter and her friends oral deaf gave me the idea that they have never been involved with the signing community nor never learned siign language. Other people say deaf son or daughter but u said "oral" deaf so I took it as your way of empasizing that your daughter has never learned sign language and she and her friends don't need it. It is so hard to keep track of who said what at first and what others typed may be taken differently by people reading what they had typed. It is apparent that must have happened here with us.

Ok thanks for clarifying. Of course your daughter and her friends r going to be able to interact with "non oral" deaf people since they know sign. My friends and I accept anyone who says they want to learn sign and we will help them but it would be another story if anyone says "I don't need ASL and don't have any interest in learning it." Some of friends have encountered some deaf people like that who even told them that they r better off not needing sign. Ouch! Your daughter and her friends aren't like that guy I met the store who said he doesn't need to learn ASL and never wants to, right?

geez, it is getting harder to keep track of who said what..or maybe it is cuz I am using my pager to access to AD.

 

[deafdyke]

DD..I prefer that sign and oral to be introduced to the deaf child at the same time. Like the child goes to a signing school cuz the parents will be learning sign if as well if they choose to learn and then the parents be the models for spoken language. That's what I would like to see.

Oh me too..........I know so many "oral sucesses" who say they could have done SO much better with Sign. I wish the choice was up to the kids, rather then being pushed as just for oral failures........grrrrrrrrrrrrr..........and yes, the parents would have to learn sign, but I think if they demand that their kids learn speech, then they have to make the sacrifice to learn sign. Yes, it's hard.........but so is speech for a dhh kid!

 

[jillio]

Just figured that someone who says that she has such "sensitivity to the plight of the Deaf in the US" and possesses the information would readily share it with others.

I readily share it with those who are open minded and willing to learn. If you spent more time actually attempting to comprewhend the issues, and less trying to refute everything I say based on the fact that it is me who is saying it, you'd be much better off.

 

[jillio]

Shel,

First, Cloggy's daughter is being taught sign and second, I do not recall either of us saying that sign language was not needed. I am not going to repeat reasons we chose to raise our daughter orally but just say briefly, that our decision was one that was constantly reevaluated and reassessed. I think you should also know that many of my daughter's friends do know sign and that she is learning as well.Whether you or your friends think she is part of the deaf community or not, is something she cannot control but the reality is that she and her friends are deaf and share a bond with each other. If you cannot welcome these people into your community then the loss is yours, not theirs but they are definitely part of some deaf community. I am not going to repreat things I have said many times but just say that my daughter has always been around deaf people since she lost her hearing. I cannot change your perceptions or how you interpret things other than to say that the things you have attributed to me in your above post are not correct.
Rick

There you go shel. Another oral deaf kid that finds the deaf communtiy after leaving home!

 

[flip]

Regarding oralists learning sign language late in life; I have seen many oralist stuck in a SEE style. I find this interesting, because interpreters are often way more fluent in ASL than those with oral background. Interpreters are as we know, hearing, and often learned sign language late in their life. To me it looks like interpreters are proud to be fluent in ASL, and other hearings are impressed by their skills. Interpreters got the motivation, it gives them some prestige, while oralist sometimes feel they "have to", and have some resistance becoming so called deaf and dumb, climbing down the society ladder.

But if oralist are truly motivated, and still not get fluent in ASL, and complains about getting rejected by the deaf society, I can only think of one reason; lack of early language, that makes it harder to learn a second language. Sure they got speech early on, but they did not use english it in it's whole like hearing kids, for example like in interactions in groups. So if your kids wants to, but never gets fluent in ASL, though they know deafs who sign, can that be a reason to worry?

I see that lack of early language often is used to explain why ASL kids have trouble learning english, but it should be the other way, too, right?

 

[shel90]

Regarding oralists learning sign language late in life; I have seen many oralist stuck in a SEE style. I find this interesting, because interpreters are often way more fluent in ASL than those with oral background. Interpreters are as we know, hearing, and often learned sign language late in their life. To me it looks like interpreters are proud to be fluent in ASL, and other hearings are impressed by their skills. Interpreters got the motivation, it gives them some prestige, while oralist sometimes feel they "have to", and have some resistance becoming so called deaf and dumb, climbing down the society ladder.

But if oralist are truly motivated, and still not get fluent in ASL, and complains about getting rejected by the deaf society, I can only think of one reason; lack of early language, that makes it harder to learn a second language. Sure they got speech early on, but they did not use english it in it's whole like hearing kids, for example like in interactions in groups. So if your kids wants to, but never gets fluent in ASL, though they know deafs who sign, can that be a reason to worry?

I see that lack of early language often is used to explain why ASL kids have trouble learning english, but it should be the other way, too, right?

That's really interesting...

When I graduated from HS, a rep from Gallaudet came to my school and told us about Gally. I was very snobby to the rep like "what's that? A college for the deaf? No thank u" without really giving him a chance to explain. If I had gone to Gally with that mentality, I proibably would have dropped out cuz I wasn't ready to accept my deafness after being brainwashing into believing that I was hearing.

I took ASL I 7 years later atASU not because I was curious about the deaf culture but because I had an ego thinking ASL would be easy for me cuz I had a deaf brother who signs. Wow...after struggling to learn it, I realized how wrong I was and I also learned about the deaf culture and was shocked that there was actually one. That itself sparked my curiosity and motivation and then the rest is history.

Yes, I can understand any levels of ASL receptively but my expressive skills aren't as good. I struggle with classifiers. No biggie

 

[rockdrummer]

Regarding oralists learning sign language late in life; I have seen many oralist stuck in a SEE style. I find this interesting, because interpreters are often way more fluent in ASL than those with oral background. Interpreters are as we know, hearing, and often learned sign language late in their life. To me it looks like interpreters are proud to be fluent in ASL, and other hearings are impressed by their skills. Interpreters got the motivation, it gives them some prestige, while oralist sometimes feel they "have to", and have some resistance becoming so called deaf and dumb, climbing down the society ladder.

But if oralist are truly motivated, and still not get fluent in ASL, and complains about getting rejected by the deaf society, I can only think of one reason; lack of early language, that makes it harder to learn a second language. Sure they got speech early on, but they did not use english it in it's whole like hearing kids, for example like in interactions in groups. So if your kids wants to, but never gets fluent in ASL, though they know deafs who sign, can that be a reason to worry?

I see that lack of early language often is used to explain why ASL kids have trouble learning english, but it should be the other way, too, right?

It seems there are social divisions amongst deaf and HOH and from what I gather, it depends on how or if you have chosen to assimilate. Is'nt it possible then that the rejection could also be from deaf folks with audist attitudes? I would venture to say there are probably many many resons for the rejection.

 

[rick48]

I readily share it with those who are open minded and willing to learn. If you spent more time actually attempting to comprewhend the issues, and less trying to refute everything I say based on the fact that it is me who is saying it, you'd be much better off.

If you re-read the posts you will see that I requested the information for those parents who may have a child in a program or are considering the programs you referenced but did not name. As my child is already in college, the information is of no use to me personally but would help others. So, consider the following advice, "f you spent more time actually attempting to comprewhend the issues, and less trying to refute everything I say based on the fact that it is me who is saying it, you'd be much better off."
Rick

 

[shel90]

It seems there are social divisions amongst deaf and HOH and from what I gather, it depends on how or if you have chosen to assimilate. Is'nt it possible then that the rejection could also be from deaf folks with audist attitudes? I would venture to say there are probably many many resons for the rejection.

About 8 years ago, that happened a lot but these days I dont see it happening as much before probably because there are more hearing people taking ASL classes and more and more oral deaf people wanting to learn sign so I think the community has changed some with these kinds of attitudes. I think more and more people are more accepting. I can only think of 2 reasons why deaf people would reject people...if the person say that they have no interest in learning sign language or the deaf people themselves are so against any people who didnt grow up culturally Deaf.

 

[rockdrummer]

I can only think of 2 reasons why deaf people would reject people...if the person say that they have no interest in learning sign language or the deaf people themselves are so against any people who didnt grow up culturally Deaf.

Isn't it not just learning sign language but more specifically ASL?

 

[shel90]

Isn't it not just learning sign language but more specifically ASL?

Can u rephrase that..I am not sure what u are really asking..thanks.

 

[deafdyke]

Sure they got speech early on, but they did not use english it in it's whole like hearing kids, for example like in interactions in groups.

EXCELLENT point! Very few dhh oral kids can really have 100% access to spoken English. They still have a very rudimentary language, and don't get the meat and potatos of English.

 

[rockdrummer]

Can u rephrase that..I am not sure what u are really asking..thanks.

You said

"I can only think of 2 reasons why deaf people would reject people...if the person say that they have no interest in learning sign language or the deaf people themselves are so against any people who didnt grow up culturally Deaf."

What I am asking is if you mean ASL when you say sign language.

 

[shel90]

You said What I am asking is if you mean ASL when you say sign language.

Nope.

we know that it is unrealistic to expect people bwho learn sign language late to become fluent in ASL immediately. It takes about 2 to 5 years depending on the indivoidual. Iam saying that if people refuse to even try saying that they don't need it, that is going to be a reason for the rejection from the deaf community. I mean...everyone who has been involved with the deaf community has always shown an interest in learning sign language and they say they hope to become fluent in ASL.

It would be like going to Mexico and wanting to live there but refuse to learn Spanish cuz it is not needed. I am sure that would be taken as an insult by the Mexicans living there. It is about respect..

 

[flip]

It seems there are social divisions amongst deaf and HOH and from what I gather, it depends on how or if you have chosen to assimilate. Is'nt it possible then that the rejection could also be from deaf folks with audist attitudes? I would venture to say there are probably many many resons for the rejection.

Wise.. Agree that it is many reasons for rejection, and there are seldom good reasons to reject, but that is not the point here.

The point is that I think we are underestimating the amount of oralists that lacks good core language skills. Notice how many ex-oralists that are stuck with SEE, while complaining that their signing skills sucks? At the same time, interpreters learn ASL with far less contact with deaf people.

 

[rockdrummer]

Nope.

we know that it is unrealistic to expect people bwho learn sign language late to become fluent in ASL immediately. It takes about 2 to 5 years depending on the indivoidual. Iam saying that if people refuse to even try saying that they don't need it, that is going to be a reason for the rejection from the deaf community. I mean...everyone who has been involved with the deaf community has always shown an interest in learning sign language and they say they hope to become fluent in ASL.

It would be like going to Mexico and wanting to live there but refuse to learn Spanish cuz it is not needed. I am sure that would be taken as an insult by the Mexicans living there. It is about respect..

Shel, it's not that simple just to say sign language. As you know there are many variations of sign. My question is do you think the deaf community would reject someone that knows other forms of sign that are not ASL? The comparison to spanish doesn't hold up becuse it's a single communication language whereas sign has many forms. I hope that makes sense.

 

[rockdrummer]

Wise.. Agree that it is many reasons for rejection, and there are seldom good reasons to reject, but that is not the point here.

The point is that I think we are underestimating the amount of oralists that lacks good core language skills. Notice how many ex-oralists that are stuck with SEE, while complaining that their signing skills sucks? At the same time, interpreters learn ASL with far less contact with deaf people.

Interesting perspective. Perhaps that is because there are so many choices. With hearing you learn english. Deaf have many choices. Perhaps there are to many choices which lead to the lack of good core language.