A venting...

jillio said:
If 5% of the parents can learn sign fluently, what stops the other 95%?
Click to expand...

Perhaps they are of lower intellegence, socio-economic status, or just slow learners? Aren't you the biggest proponent of never using the success of the few to prove that the majority can!!!
 
faire_jour said:
But you still aren't addressing the fact that the VAST majority of hearing parents will never become fluent in ASL. You are asking them to turn over their child's education to you, completly in a language that they don't understand and then complain that they aren't involved enough!
Click to expand...

The parents not being fluent is no reason not to use ASL as the language of instruction in the classroom. The parents are not in the classroom teaching. When the children leave the classroom, they will speak if that is what their parent demands of them.

A hearing parent who is not fluent in sign can communicate with the classroom teacher the same way any parent communicates with their child's classroom teacher. The majority of parents I know don't understand Quantum Physics, either, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taught.
 
faire_jour said:
Perhaps they are of lower intellegence, socio-economic status, or just slow learners? Aren't you the biggest proponent of never using the success of the few to prove that the majority can!!!
Click to expand...

95% of the hearing parents of deaf children are just poor, mentally retarded, or cognitively delayed? And that is why they don't learn sign?:shock:

I'll have to look for some stats on that one.
 
jillio said:
95% of the hearing parents of deaf children are just poor, mentally retarded, or cognitively delayed? And that is why they don't learn sign?:shock:

I'll have to look for some stats on that one.
Click to expand...

Slow learners meaning that it takes a long time to learn, not cognitivly impared. Lower intellegence meaning lower than those who DO learn.

Those were just a few suggestions, how about they work too much, have many other children, are in a messy divorce, can't afford to be away from a medically frail child....these are all reasons I have heard from other parents as to why they are struggling to learn ASL.
 
faire_jour said:
Slow learners meaning that it takes a long time to learn, not cognitivly impared. Lower intellegence meaning lower than those who DO learn.

Those were just a few suggestions, how about they work too much, have many other children, are in a messy divorce, can't afford to be away from a medically frail child....these are all reasons I have heard from other parents as to why they are struggling to learn ASL.
Click to expand...

If one is looking for an excuse, one can always find one.
 
And what happened to not using the sucess of a few to say it is possible for all? Or is that only true for CI kids?
 
faire_jour said:
And what happened to not using the sucess of a few to say it is possible for all? Or is that only true for CI kids?
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? It is not the same situation at all.:roll:

And you still haven't explained why a hearing parent who does not know sign cannot be involved in a deaf child's bi-bi education. I'd really like to know, what it is, in your opinion, that would prevent the parent from being involved.
 
jillio said:
What are you talking about? It is not the same situation at all.:roll:

And you still haven't explained why a hearing parent who does not know sign cannot be involved in a deaf child's bi-bi education. I'd really like to know, what it is, in your opinion, that would prevent the parent from being involved.
Click to expand...

Why isn't it? You say that we should never assume that all CI kids can turn out like the top 5% that are paraded around as successes. That we can not extrapolate that into generalities. Why can it be for hearing parents?
 
faire_jour said:
Why isn't it? You say that we should never assume that all CI kids can turn out like the top 5% that are paraded around as successes. That we can not extrapolate that into generalities. Why can it be for hearing parents?
Click to expand...

Actually, I think my exact words were that 1 or 2 anecdotal cases cannot be used to decide educational policy for the majority. Quite a different thing. Again, if you are going to quote me, please do so correctly.

And findings can be generalized when the data has been gathered in a controlled setting in which extraneous variables are controlled for or eliminated. That doesn't happen with anecdote. Likewise, your estimations of parents learning sign was not the result of data collected in that manner, either.

Again, I ask: what prevents a non-signing parent from participating in their deaf child's education in a bi-bi environment?
 
If they don't sign how are they able to evaluate their child's skills, help write IEP goals, or even help with homework? In my daughter's bi-bi school they have ASL class and therefore ASL study and assignments.
 
faire_jour said:
If they don't sign how are they able to evaluate their child's skills, help write IEP goals, or even help with homework? In my daughter's bi-bi school they have ASL class and therefore ASL study and assignments.
Click to expand...

Because communication with the non-signing parents would be done in English. None of the things you mentioned are impacted by the classroom teacher using ASL as the language of instruction.

If it is a matter of helping a child with ASL homework, what is preventing the parent from learning the same lessons the child is learning? An English speaking parent who doesn't know Spanish very likely will not be able to help their child with Spanish homework, either, unless they take the time to learn the Spanish lessons their child is learning. Does that mean that children should never be taught a second language simply because the parents can't help them with their homework in that language?

Children in bi-bi environments communicate in ASL and in English. If the child only knows English, it stands to reason that communication between the parent and the child will be in English. That in no way presupposes that ASL should not be used in the classroom. The parent is not involved in the classroom instruction.
 
jillio said:
Because communication with the non-signing parents would be done in English. None of the things you mentioned are impacted by the classroom teacher using ASL as the language of instruction.

If it is a matter of helping a child with ASL homework, what is preventing the parent from learning the same lessons the child is learning? An English speaking parent who doesn't know Spanish very likely will not be able to help their child with Spanish homework, either, unless they take the time to learn the Spanish lessons their child is learning. Does that mean that children should never be taught a second language simply because the parents can't help them with their homework in that language?
Click to expand...

But if the child's primary language is ASL the parent can not evaluate their child's language development or help develop goal for that language. Also, the child's homework I am speaking of is the equivalent of 6th grade English homework for a hearing child, a non-english speaker would be unable to assiat with that work or learn the language from it either.
 
faire_jour said:
But if the child's primary language is ASL the parent can not evaluate their child's language development or help develop goal for that language. Also, the child's homework I am speaking of is the equivalent of 6th grade English homework for a hearing child, a non-english speaker would be unable to assiat with that work or learn the language from it either.
Click to expand...

Parents are rarely involved with language assessments done by schools. The assessments must be done by qualified professionals, and the results are discussed and accommodated for in the IEP. If the assessment shows that the child needs remedial services, the parent can agree or disagree with the assessment, and offer alternative suggestions to be included in the IEP. But the parent doesn't do the assessment.

Now you are talking about a non-English speaking adult helping with English homework. You really are all over the place. If it is a deaf student with a hearing parent doing the English homework, the problem you speak of hasn't even occurred.

A deaf child with ASL homework doesn't suddenly start out at a 6th grade level. They have 1st-5th first. If the parent has been helping with the child's homework 1st-5th, then they will be right on par when the child starts to do 6th grade work. If they suddenly try to jump in at the 6th grade level, the better question would be, "Why didn't that parent take an interest in their child's school work for the previous 5 years?"
 
jillio said:
Parents are rarely involved with language assessments done by schools. The assessments must be done by qualified professionals, and the results are discussed and accommodated for in the IEP. If the assessment shows that the child needs remedial services, the parent can agree or disagree with the assessment, and offer alternative suggestions to be included in the IEP. But the parent doesn't do the assessment.

"
Click to expand...
Unless I'm mistaken, this also applies to the deaf child whose first language is English and the parent wouldn't be qualified to make the assessments either. Too many people make the mistake of mistaking good speech for excellent English skills.

My ex-bf had no speech skills at all but his English is even better than mine; anyone who make less grammaricpal mistakes than I do on IMs has clearly better English skills than I do. Spoken English is not the only way to go.
 
Great venting, Shel90.

Yes, I can understand how you feeling.

Try to think positive, don't give up please... :hug:
 
faire_jour said:
They can't communicate with the teacher or even their child.
Click to expand...

I can communicate with all of the parents in different ways. Through the parent communication books, thru an terp, through email, or on an one on one basis.

We have a few spanish-speaking families who do not speak English...they cant communicate with the hearing teachers and we have one deaf aide who is fluent in all 3 languages so she gets called to write in the communication book using Spanish. There are so many ways to overcome it.
 
faire_jour said:
But you still aren't addressing the fact that the VAST majority of hearing parents will never become fluent in ASL. You are asking them to turn over their child's education to you, completly in a language that they don't understand and then complain that they aren't involved enough!
Click to expand...

We have parents who arent fluent in ASL who are very much involved with their child's education. I am lost to what the problem is?
 
faire_jour said:
The statement about deaf of deaf is in regards to parents who limit their deaf children by using only one language. I asked the question as to whether it is limiting to them to choose to use ASL only.
Click to expand...

All the deaf families that I have met want their children to become proficient in English too. never met a deaf family who has said no to English.
 
:shock: So Sad! here :hug:.. I felt that All CI kids still learning with ASL .. If without They will be lost?? anyway!! :dunno2:

Few of my friend's kids with CI .. They re ASL plus talking very good too :)
 
deafskeptic said:
Unless I'm mistaken, this also applies to the deaf child whose first language is English and the parent wouldn't be qualified to make the assessments either. Too many people make the mistake of mistaking good speech for excellent English skills.

My ex-bf had no speech skills at all but his English is even better than mine; anyone who make less grammaricpal mistakes than I do on IMs has clearly better English skills than I do. Spoken English is not the only way to go.
Click to expand...

Exactly. The whole point about the parent not being able to be involved in a child's education if the child is in a Bi-Bi environment and the parent doesn't sign is just a null argument.
 
Back
Top