You cannot hear with CI .. ??

[shel90]

This is NOT a good reason to get CI. Since you are adult already, it has to be your desire to hear and be willing to make it work for you. If you are not willing to make it work for you then don't get it at all.

I know..just if I lose my job due to less deaf children being enrolled at the deaf schools, then I would have to find a job working with hearing people and I really do not want to struggle with communicating with them. I think that will motivate me to work with a CI. Maybe I would never know until the time comes. I will just enjoy my job for now and if I lose it, I will deal with it. Thanks, Boult..

 

[sr171soars]

It isn't malarky. If it has been provided by the medical community as a form of compensation and was not a naturally occuring sensory fuction in the idividual, it is artificial. Just as artificial insemination results in a real live baby, it is still an artificially assisted conception.

Again I will say...so what? If the CI gets to the point that it can stimulate some 30,000 cochlear hairs and throw in some extras the the natural hearing system can't provide (i.e, hear at a higher frequencies similar to dogs or hear so much further away than normal hearing aka the Bionic Man or Woman...anybody remember those shows???), then what is that going to do to your arguments? So it is artificial but these folks are going to have a leg up on the rest of the world and push the current limits on what is possible with sensory input processing. Obviously, that is going to have impact on cognitive processes as well. You make too much of an issue over the term artificial. At some point in the future, it will be irrelevant.

And actually, the actual cognitive proccessing follows very predictable paths and does not vary from individual to individual unless sensory inforamtion is involved. It is the interpretation of the cognitive process that allows for variation.

Perhaps "how" cognitive processing works may be consistent (I'm not necessarily persuaded as I need to review the literature regarding this) but the end results of such "processing" is not and never will be consistent from individual to individual. Sensory input plays a role but it is not the only aspect to cognitive processing. Experience, knowledge, intellect, emotional aspects all play an enormous role in this process as well. This is where the variance is to be found along with any significant differences in sensory input from the norm.

 

[jillio]

Again I will say...so what? If the CI gets to the point that it can stimulate some 30,000 cochlear hairs and throw in some extras the the natural hearing system can't provide (i.e, hear at a higher frequencies similar to dogs or hear so much further away than normal hearing aka the Bionic Man or Woman...anybody remember those shows???), then what is that going to do to your arguments? So it is artificial but these folks are going to have a leg up on the rest of the world and push the current limits on what is possible with sensory input processing. Obviously, that is going to have impact on cognitive processes as well. You make too much of an issue over the term artificial. At some point in the future, it will be irrelevant.



Perhaps "how" cognitive processing works may be consistent (I'm not necessarily persuaded as I need to review the literature regarding this) but the end results of such "processing" is not and never will be consistent from individual to individual. Sensory input plays a role but it is not the only aspect to cognitive processing. Experience, knowledge, intellect, emotional aspects all play an enormous role in this process as well. This is where the variance is to be found along with any significant differences in sensory input from the norm.

So you would reccommend hearing people getting a CI so they too can hear the same frequencies as dogs?


And the above do not play a role in cognitive processing, but in interpretation of that which is processed. That is why two people can actually perceive an identical form, and process that input along the same pathways, but when pressed for a description, will vary in the description they give. You are lumping perception, cognition, and interpretation into the same category, and they are three separate functions that ideally are interrealated, but sometimes are not.

 

[sr171soars]

So you would reccommend hearing people getting a CI so they too can hear the same frequencies as dogs?

Now, who is getting ridiculous here? That is a different issue altogether. To answer your asinine question...no.

And the above do not play a role in cognitive processing, but in interpretation of that which is processed. That is why two people can actually perceive an identical form, and process that input along the same pathways, but when pressed for a description, will vary in the description they give. You are lumping perception, cognition, and interpretation into the same category, and they are three separate functions that ideally are interrealated, but sometimes are not.

You can't eat your cake and have it too. Nothing exists in a vacuum. There is no cognition if no perception (this is certainly true) and no interpretation either (if not then we are talking about a "black hole" or an automation). The sum is greater than its parts. One has to account for the entire package. Like I said, the variance is not dealing with your definition of cognitive process but rather how the individual learns at their optimal level which includes the entire package.

 

[Capmeister]

God, I'm not even sure what point you two are debating anymore.

Look, a CI gives someone perception of sound. If earlier enough in life, the brain seems to be able to figure out what to do with this info really well. If someone has had some hearing and the brain already knows, it also works well. If the brain has never done this and someone is older, or just can't seem to make enough out of the stimuli, it doesn't work as well. So there's lots of factors and everyone is different.

How someone is able to use what the CI gives them depends on how well their brain is able to convert the stimuli into something meaningful. That will depend on the person.

 

[jillio]

Now, who is getting ridiculous here? That is a different issue altogether. To answer your asinine question...no.



You can't eat your cake and have it too. Nothing exists in a vacuum. There is no cognition if no perception (this is certainly true) and no interpretation either (if not then we are talking about a "black hole" or an automation). The sum is greater than its parts. One has to account for the entire package. Like I said, the variance is not dealing with your definition of cognitive process but rather how the individual learns at their optimal level which includes the entire package.

Granted, there is no cognition without perception, etc, etc. However, there can be perception without cognition, and congnition without interpretation. Ever hear of Unilateral Neglect? It is a perfect example of perception without cognitive processing.

 

[jillio]

God, I'm not even sure what point you two are debating anymore.

Look, a CI gives someone perception of sound. If earlier enough in life, the brain seems to be able to figure out what to do with this info really well. If someone has had some hearing and the brain already knows, it also works well. If the brain has never done this and someone is older, or just can't seem to make enough out of the stimuli, it doesn't work as well. So there's lots of factors and everyone is different.

How someone is able to use what the CI gives them depends on how well their brain is able to convert the stimuli into something meaningful. That will depend on the person.

And that point is what started the meaningless debate. I pointedout that perception and cognition were not the same thing, and that had an influence on success.

 

[WBHarley]

God, I'm not even sure what point you two are debating anymore.

Look, a CI gives someone perception of sound. If earlier enough in life, the brain seems to be able to figure out what to do with this info really well. If someone has had some hearing and the brain already knows, it also works well. If the brain has never done this and someone is older, or just can't seem to make enough out of the stimuli, it doesn't work as well. So there's lots of factors and everyone is different.

How someone is able to use what the CI gives them depends on how well their brain is able to convert the stimuli into something meaningful. That will depend on the person.

Thank you Capmeister....

If my child was born deaf, I would have implant him/her at earliest ages as I can because It works better for them... i personally am CI user.. for last almost 6 years, I personally wish the technology was so way much better long time ago, But now days they improves so many technology... and it is WORTH It...


Shel90 I'm not going to response my answer for your question because I know for last 6 years this is going on same and over and over and over, I know you just join in here few months ago, but I have been to many different forums and I'm tired of it and bored to death when people don't get it!

Now, this is for anybody...
I'm not going to speak for this for everyone I know that.. Personally Individual has different opinions on how the CI works on them.. and as for person who does NOT have CI has no clue idea just *hear from others* but they can't just judge on any CI user, or make any of these CI child/children to get angry. I am so sick of people who put words in other people's mouth and make it look so bad!!! FOR me I am so fuckin' glad I got CI for ME not for anybody else in the world.. I got CI for me because I WANT IT and I want to work it on my own and with some helps as well.... I see that It works way much better for me, I even can hear my daughter using her headphone with her CD player blasting way loud on her CD I often ask her to turn it down. my husband said "you can hear that even she had a headphone and you don't ?" I said I can hear it in this distance I BELIEVE It is way too freaking loud for her, plus i was told that listen to music so loud can cause hearing loss. as for TV's I have 3 bedrooms ranch home. with double garage... I can hear my daughter's TV with her door close, I often have to go in and tell her to turn it down she rolled her eyes up and said *but i can't hear it. with all these noises* so I took her to have hearing test few years ago she has a small hearing loss but not enough for Hearing aids and is NOT HOH at all.. still is hearing! My older son often has his volume up at bedtime. (He quickly fall asleep faster than my other kids) so I have to get up and turn it down before I go to bed.... even it was on "medium but it does disturb other people's sleeps too"
I tell my husband.. why is TV so loud he said it's not.. I said well to me it is.. He said well it is a little but not loud enough... MIND you.. he has very selective hearing, just like my other son too..

my younger son babbled a lots of time, I Kept on hearing so many words he s been saying for last 3 years. so many times I hear him so clearly word spoken.. i tell lance "did he said that *blah blah blah*" He would tell me "yes he did speak it very clear.." or he would tell me "close enough.. " (due of rhymes)

I basically can hear words and some sentences without looking most of times but I often have a bad habits to look at people's lip because for years years MY BRAIN was focus on "reading lips for many years" I am 39 years old. so it's the habits that we rely on the interpreters, and reading lips, and using sign language. I basically can tell you.. my hearing is same ages of 3-4 years old.. because thats why I was implanted late age, and I was thankful I can take my time to do it, but honestly.. I do believe implanting child early enough is Good enough, If it failed. then they can use TC included sign language, but if it does NOT fail, then its best that they learn oral FIRST then sign at later child age not adult age..

I Learned to speak FIRST,, then I learn sign languages I believe around 9-11 I can't remember. my mom forget she think it was somewhere that ages! I am glad I learn to speak and read lip it helped me to socialized better in the world where everyone speak many different languages! IN this world many native language we have.. many parents who were brought up different languages...


Cloggy, I'm very sorry if I went off topic but I'm just "tired of it. i had to say it in my pieces and in my thoughts"

Cloggy, I am very glad that your daughter can hear lots of sounds and words, environmental with her CI, I do too. I am glad I am not *Deaf* with my CI too, I am very pleased on what I have learn and so many things I could hear both environmental and voices, tones etc altho I AM still learning but I am having lots of fun learning ALONG with my younger son too

Im not going to reply to some..

 

[SxyPorkie]

I didn't think that way...

if I want to expand on his sentence it would be like this;

"my daughter is hearing sounds"

"my daughter is hearing musics"

"my daughter is hearing the sound of voices"

etc etc...

he hasn't implied that his daughter is hearing person yet.
Just that he said that she is a deaf person that can hear (with ci).

Your post does makes sense.. but you have not read Cloggy's posts in other site.... Cloggy claimed Lotte has two CIs... and she is not DEAF...
he had abused few of members there... the owner erased ALL of Cloggy s threads and posts... the owner KNEW he is lying....

 

[Capmeister]

I think someone with one or two CI's is still deaf, since it's not a cure for deafness, but a prosthetic device. Just as a person with a prosthetic leg that he walks hasn't cured himself of having lost a leg, but uses a tool to replace the functionality.

Does a CI let someone hear? Sure, it can. Or it might just give someone gibberish, depending on the person. Is someone with a CI a hearing person? No--they're a deaf person who can hear.

It's like saying "I have blue eyes because I wear blue contacts." No, you have blue contacts. But the label hearing or deaf shouldn't even matter that much. We're all HUMANS. Everyone is an individual.

 

[shel90]

Thank you Capmeister....

If my child was born deaf, I would have implant him/her at earliest ages as I can because It works better for them... i personally am CI user.. for last almost 6 years, I personally wish the technology was so way much better long time ago, But now days they improves so many technology... and it is WORTH It...


Shel90 I'm not going to response my answer for your question because I know for last 6 years this is going on same and over and over and over, I know you just join in here few months ago, but I have been to many different forums and I'm tired of it and bored to death when people don't get it!

Now, this is for anybody...
I'm not going to speak for this for everyone I know that.. Personally Individual has different opinions on how the CI works on them.. and as for person who does NOT have CI has no clue idea just *hear from others* but they can't just judge on any CI user, or make any of these CI child/children to get angry. I am so sick of people who put words in other people's mouth and make it look so bad!!! FOR me I am so fuckin' glad I got CI for ME not for anybody else in the world.. I got CI for me because I WANT IT and I want to work it on my own and with some helps as well.... I see that It works way much better for me, I even can hear my daughter using her headphone with her CD player blasting way loud on her CD I often ask her to turn it down. my husband said "you can hear that even she had a headphone and you don't ?" I said I can hear it in this distance I BELIEVE It is way too freaking loud for her, plus i was told that listen to music so loud can cause hearing loss. as for TV's I have 3 bedrooms ranch home. with double garage... I can hear my daughter's TV with her door close, I often have to go in and tell her to turn it down she rolled her eyes up and said *but i can't hear it. with all these noises* so I took her to have hearing test few years ago she has a small hearing loss but not enough for Hearing aids and is NOT HOH at all.. still is hearing! My older son often has his volume up at bedtime. (He quickly fall asleep faster than my other kids) so I have to get up and turn it down before I go to bed.... even it was on "medium but it does disturb other people's sleeps too"
I tell my husband.. why is TV so loud he said it's not.. I said well to me it is.. He said well it is a little but not loud enough... MIND you.. he has very selective hearing, just like my other son too..

my younger son babbled a lots of time, I Kept on hearing so many words he s been saying for last 3 years. so many times I hear him so clearly word spoken.. i tell lance "did he said that *blah blah blah*" He would tell me "yes he did speak it very clear.." or he would tell me "close enough.. " (due of rhymes)

I basically can hear words and some sentences without looking most of times but I often have a bad habits to look at people's lip because for years years MY BRAIN was focus on "reading lips for many years" I am 39 years old. so it's the habits that we rely on the interpreters, and reading lips, and using sign language. I basically can tell you.. my hearing is same ages of 3-4 years old.. because thats why I was implanted late age, and I was thankful I can take my time to do it, but honestly.. I do believe implanting child early enough is Good enough, If it failed. then they can use TC included sign language, but if it does NOT fail, then its best that they learn oral FIRST then sign at later child age not adult age..

I Learned to speak FIRST,, then I learn sign languages I believe around 9-11 I can't remember. my mom forget she think it was somewhere that ages! I am glad I learn to speak and read lip it helped me to socialized better in the world where everyone speak many different languages! IN this world many native language we have.. many parents who were brought up different languages...


Cloggy, I'm very sorry if I went off topic but I'm just "tired of it. i had to say it in my pieces and in my thoughts"

Cloggy, I am very glad that your daughter can hear lots of sounds and words, environmental with her CI, I do too. I am glad I am not *Deaf* with my CI too, I am very pleased on what I have learn and so many things I could hear both environmental and voices, tones etc altho I AM still learning but I am having lots of fun learning ALONG with my younger son too

Im not going to reply to some..

Good for u.

I "don't" get it? Try teaching 1st graders with language delays cuz the the oral only approach was used and when it was discovered that they were unable to pick up on spoken language (yes even CI users!!) then they were finally exposed to ASL and have to start at square 1 at the ages of 4,5 or even older. How do u justify that? Think that's ok? U said kids shud learn oral fist and then sign later as kids. I refuse to take a gamble with any kids' language development. If u think that's ok, your point of view.

I have never said I am against CIs and never said that they don't work. We have students here that their CIs worked and they r doing fine with language development from BOTH. It is those who don't benefit from that I am worried about.

Come on and be a teacher for deaf ed and see if u still have the same point of views.

 

[jillio]

Good for u.

I "don't" get it? Try teaching 1st graders with language delays cuz the the oral only approach was used and when it was discovered that they were unable to pick up on spoken language (yes even CI users!!) then they were finally exposed to ASL and have to start at square 1 at the ages of 4,5 or even older. How do u justify that? Think that's ok? U said kids shud learn oral fist and then sign later as kids. I refuse to take a gamble with any kids' language development. If u think that's ok, your point of view.

I have never said I am against CIs and never said that they don't work. We have students here that their CIs worked and they r doing fine with language development from BOTH. It is those who don't benefit from that I am worried about.

Come on and be a teacher for deaf ed and see if u still have the same point of views.

Good point. And people need to realize that while they are entitled to make the choices for their own children, they also have to accept responsibility for the choices they make. If they choose not to expose their child to ASL, and then the kid shows language delays and has problems in school, they cannot blame the educators, they must accept the responsibility themselves.

Likewise, if they choose to isolate their child from the Deaf community, and that child develops identity problems or adjustment problems, and connects with the Deaf community as an adult, feeling resentment for never having been given that kind of acceptance before, then the parents must accept that is the result of their decision, and not blame the Deaf community for pulling their child away. That child is only looking for what the parents and family have not provided.

 

[WBHarley]

I already stated in post #188 that I do believe implanting child early enough is Good enough, If it failed. then they can use TC included sign language, but if it does NOT fail, then its best that they learn oral FIRST then sign at later child age not adult age..

 

[Drew's Dad]

Good point. And people need to realize that while they are entitled to make the choices for their own children, they also have to accept responsibility for the choices they make. If they choose not to expose their child to ASL, and then the kid shows language delays and has problems in school, they cannot blame the educators, they must accept the responsibility themselves.

Likewise, if they choose to isolate their child from the Deaf community, and that child develops identity problems or adjustment problems, and connects with the Deaf community as an adult, feeling resentment for never having been given that kind of acceptance before, then the parents must accept that is the result of their decision, and not blame the Deaf community for pulling their child away. That child is only looking for what the parents and family have not provided.

I agree.

Similarly, if parents choose not to expose their child to CI's and speech, and isolate their child from the hearing community, the child develops identity problems or adjustment problems, and later in life wants to be a part of the hearing community, and feels resentment for having never been given the opportunity to develop oral language during the prime period to learn it, the parents must accept that as the result of their decision, and look only at the parent for blame, since it was the parent's choice to not provide it to them.

We don't know what the child's perspective will be when older, which is why this is a difficult choice to have to make.

 

[jillio]

I agree.

Similarly, if parents choose not to expose their child to CI's and speech, and isolate their child from the hearing community, the child develops identity problems or adjustment problems, and later in life wants to be a part of the hearing community, and feels resentment for having never been given the opportunity to develop oral language during the prime period to learn it, the parents must accept that as the result of their decision, and look only at the parent for blame, since it was the parent's choice to not provide it to them.

We don't know what the child's perspective will be when older, which is why this is a difficult choice to have to make.[/QU

Good point in theory, Drew's Dad. But the sad fact of the matter is deaf children are always exposed to the hearing community. It is everywhere and it doesn't have to sought out. Even in schools for the deaf, children are in constant contact with the hearing. The hearing community is very available. So, in theory, your premise makes sense. But in actual practice, the problems experienced by deaf children and young deaf adults, and sometimes a long way into adulthood stem from being denied that which is apart of their identity--their connection to other deaf people.

 

[shel90]

I agree.

Similarly, if parents choose not to expose their child to CI's and speech, and isolate their child from the hearing community, the child develops identity problems or adjustment problems, and later in life wants to be a part of the hearing community, and feels resentment for having never been given the opportunity to develop oral language during the prime period to learn it, the parents must accept that as the result of their decision, and look only at the parent for blame, since it was the parent's choice to not provide it to them.

We don't know what the child's perspective will be when older, which is why this is a difficult choice to have to make.

90% of deaf children r born to hearing families/parents so no worries there for total isolation from the hearing world.

Those 5 to 10% who r born to deaf familes do interact with the hearing world unless they lock themselves in their homes and never venture out to places.

What's the worry?

 

[rick48]

I agree.

Similarly, if parents choose not to expose their child to CI's and speech, and isolate their child from the hearing community, the child develops identity problems or adjustment problems, and later in life wants to be a part of the hearing community, and feels resentment for having never been given the opportunity to develop oral language during the prime period to learn it, the parents must accept that as the result of their decision, and look only at the parent for blame, since it was the parent's choice to not provide it to them.

We don't know what the child's perspective will be when older, which is why this is a difficult choice to have to make.

Drew's Dad,

Excellent post! Thanks for bringing to our attention that there are other sides to this issue and that all parents should take responsibility for their decisions.

Shel,

I believe the intent of Drew's Dad post wherein he speaks of being a part of the hearing community goes beyond mere superficial contact with hearing people but the sense of belonging and being a part of a group of people. Sharing a common language aids immensely towards that goal. The inability to communicate immensely hinders that goal. If you have children who are denied by their parents the opprtunity to develop oral language skills, how do propose that they can identify with the hearing community?
Rick

 

[rick48]

Your post does makes sense.. but you have not read Cloggy's posts in other site.... Cloggy claimed Lotte has two CIs... and she is not DEAF...
he had abused few of members there... the owner erased ALL of Cloggy s threads and posts... the owner KNEW he is lying....

FYI Cloggy's threads are still there.

 

[shel90]

Drew's Dad,

Excellent post! Thanks for bringing to our attention that there are other sides to this issue and that all parents should take responsibility for their decisions.

Shel,

I believe the intent of Drew's Dad post wherein he speaks of being a part of the hearing community goes beyond mere superficial contact with hearing people but the sense of belonging and being a part of a group of people. Sharing a common language aids immensely towards that goal. The inability to communicate immensely hinders that goal. If you have children who are denied by their parents the opprtunity to develop oral language skills, how do propose that they can identify with the hearing community?
Rick

That's why I say in other threads..why not do both? Many deaf people I know, including myself, grew up totally mainstreamed in the hearing world with little or no contact with other deaf people. They feel the same as I did...a sense of not fitting in no matter how hard we try and then discovering the deaf community much later and feeling just right at home. Yes, there r a few here on AD that feel at home with the hearing world and if it makes them happy, great. I just haven't met a deaf person in person that have said he/she feels connected to the hearing world like they do in the deaf world. That's why if possible, expose the child to both. Believe me if the child grows up feeling a void or something's missing even though the child doesn't know what it is, it can lead to serious emotional problems. I believe that it would be good to have a balance instead of one over the other. If I had that balance, maybe I won't feel this amniosity about interacting with non signers. I am working on it cuz it would be nice for me to have a good balance but it is hard to keep from all the old bitter feelings from my past coming back.

If there is no deaf community in wherever the deaf child lives in then yea, less choices. I just try to encourage parents to try to expose the child to both and the child will find his/her identity in whichever world.

 

[jillio]

That's why I say in other threads..why not do both? Many deaf people I know, including myself, grew up totally mainstreamed in the hearing world with little or no contact with other deaf people. They feel the same as I did...a sense of not fitting in no matter how hard we try and then discovering the deaf community much later and feeling just right at home. Yes, there r a few here on AD that feel at home with the hearing world and if it makes them happy, great. I just haven't met a deaf person in person that have said he/she feels connected to the hearing world like they do in the deaf world. That's why if possible, expose the child to both. Believe me if the child grows up feeling a void or something's missing even though the child doesn't know what it is, it can lead to serious emotional problems. I believe that it would be good to have a balance instead of one over the other. If I had that balance, maybe I won't feel this amniosity about interacting with non signers. I am working on it cuz it would be nice for me to have a good balance but it is hard to keep from all the old bitter feelings from my past coming back.

If there is no deaf community in wherever the deaf child lives in then yea, less choices. I just try to encourage parents to try to expose the child to both and the child will find his/her identity in whichever world.

Absolutely. There are so many more variable involved in cultural membership. Language is but one small part.