You cannot hear with CI .. ??

[rockdrummer]

Stimulating the cochlear nerve only allows for perception to occur. Perception and cognitive processing, while interrelated, function independently of each other. Unless a child has been diagnosed and implanted at the time of birth, that child has laready begun to develop the neural pathways that dictate the manner in which they process, on a cognitive level, information available to allow them to make sense of their environment. It really doesn't matter how one casues the auditory function to be stimulated. While one may be more effective than another, both are artificial form of stimulation and are not innate characteristics.

Wouldn't these be good reasons to implant a child as early as possible?

 

[jillio]

Wouldn't these be good reasons to implant a child as early as possible?

Not unless intrauterine implantation can be accopmplished. You are still using an artifical stimulation. And while a child implanted at an earlier age may adjust better to the CI, the heart of the issue is still language acquisition. When a child is implanted early on, it is still necessary to employ all forms of av therapy in order to teach the child how to process sound on a cognitive level, and the very fact that you are teaching that child to do that creates the atmosphere for language delay. It is not a natural form of language acquisition, nor does it comes close to mimicing the natural form. When a child acquires language in a natural environment, the majority of the learning takes place through intuitive processes. The child actually know many things about the use of that language that they cannot articlulate. They intuit the use of rules for the language and apply them in new and novel situations without understanding why, but simply knowing that is the way their language works. When you employ instructive techniques to remediate language acquisition, the child learns on a much more concrete level, and cannot generalize what they have learned in the same way as they do when it is learned in a natural environment. Tis is exactly what leads to the difficulties seen in the English grammar and sytax of deaf children, and also why when a deaf child is exposed to even late learning signers of ASL, they will extrapolate all the information from the language, and actually end up making fewer syntactical and grammatical errors than their models. In other words, a deaf child who receives inconsistent input in ASL will actually surpass the level of input that he receives. Why? Because acquisition is natural. This does not happen in the case of English learned through AV therapy.

 

[shel90]

Not unless intrauterine implantation can be accopmplished. You are still using an artifical stimulation. And while a child implanted at an earlier age may adjust better to the CI, the heart of the issue is still language acquisition. When a child is implanted early on, it is still necessary to employ all forms of av therapy in order to teach the child how to process sound on a cognitive level, and the very fact that you are teaching that child to do that creates the atmosphere for language delay. It is not a natural form of language acquisition, nor does it comes close to mimicing the natural form. When a child acquires language in a natural environment, the majority of the learning takes place through intuitive processes. The child actually know many things about the use of that language that they cannot articlulate. They intuit the use of rules for the language and apply them in new and novel situations without understanding why, but simply knowing that is the way their language works. When you employ instructive techniques to remediate language acquisition, the child learns on a much more concrete level, and cannot generalize what they have learned in the same way as they do when it is learned in a natural environment. Tis is exactly what leads to the difficulties seen in the English grammar and sytax of deaf children, and also why when a deaf child is exposed to even late learning signers of ASL, they will extrapolate all the information from the language, and actually end up making fewer syntactical and grammatical errors than their models. In other words, a deaf child who receives inconsistent input in ASL will actually surpass the level of input that he receives. Why? Because acquisition is natural. This does not happen in the case of English learned through AV therapy.

U know, now that I think about it..I noticed that my writing skills have been stuck at a plateau since high school even though I have a Master's degree...no matter how many books of a higher level of English (let's say at the PhD level) I read, I can't put those thoughts or terminology into my writing. I am unable to play around with my English and I have difficulty putting a lot of my thoughts on the level I can read into my writing. Like with your and other hearing ADers such as rockdrummer, rick, or whoever, I noticed your writing styles are at the level I seem unable to reach. I feel my writing or maybe even my thoughts are too simplistic and lack creativity. Yes, my grammar is pretty decent but I feel I should be writing or organizing my thoughts at a much higher level. I never could pick up on that kind of thing from my hearing peers growing up. I have to really work very hard to write research papers that use a lot of terminilogy and then I struggle with constructing my sentences using the more advanced words. I hope this makes sense?

Even my Expressive language in ASL is not at the level as my brother's level of ASL.

 

[Capmeister]

U know, now that I think about it..I noticed that my writing skills have been stuck at a plateau since high school even though I have a Master's degree...no matter how many books of a higher level of English (let's say at the PhD level) I read, I can't put those thoughts or terminology into my writing. I am unable to play around with my English and I have difficulty putting a lot of my thoughts on the level I can read into my writing. Like with your and other hearing ADers such as rockdrummer, rick, or whoever, I noticed your writing styles are at the level I seem unable to reach. I feel my writing or maybe even my thoughts are too simplistic and lack creativity. Yes, my grammar is pretty decent but I feel I should be writing or organizing my thoughts at a much higher level. I never could pick up on that kind of thing from my hearing peers growing up. I have to really work very hard to write research papers that use a lot of terminilogy and then I struggle with constructing my sentences using the more advanced words. I hope this makes sense?

Even my Expressive language in ASL is not at the level as my brother's level of ASL.

That may have nothing to do with deafness and simply a personal limitation. And I don't mean that in a negative way--just that everyone has their own abilities. Some people are good at cooking, while others aren't. Some are good at music (I have no musical ability whatsoever), while others aren't. Some are better at expressing themselves in writing and others aren't. I happen to have a degree in journalism, and I'm a published author--I know how to write a sentence. My brother is profoundly deaf, he has a degree in English (almost a second degree in education), and can write with style easily. Just something he's always been able to do. I'm horrible at math--he's not. I'm...okay, I'm trying to think of something I'm good at that he's not...and it's becoming humbling, the little jerk.... ::grumble:: Um... I can name that tune in 3 notes! Okay, that doesn't count. I'm better at philosophy than he is (mainly because it's less of an interest to him). I AM a better writer than he, but he's not a professional writer.

My point is, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. I used to write books with someone who writes with his wife under her name. He does the major plot work, and she writes the actual words in the book. He and I worked the same. I now work without him, having learned a lot of how to plot from him, but he can't write prose (other than editorials or letters) to save is soul. He can write as well as anyone--but doesn't have the ability to make interesting prose from nothing. ::shrug:: That's just how it is.

 

[shel90]

That may have nothing to do with deafness and simply a personal limitation. And I don't mean that in a negative way--just that everyone has their own abilities. Some people are good at cooking, while others aren't. Some are good at music (I have no musical ability whatsoever), while others aren't. Some are better at expressing themselves in writing and others aren't. I happen to have a degree in journalism, and I'm a published author--I know how to write a sentence. My brother is profoundly deaf, he has a degree in English (almost a second degree in education), and can write with style easily. Just something he's always been able to do. I'm horrible at math--he's not. I'm...okay, I'm trying to think of something I'm good at that he's not...and it's becoming humbling, the little jerk.... ::grumble:: Um... I can name that tune in 3 notes! Okay, that doesn't count. I'm better at philosophy than he is (mainly because it's less of an interest to him). I AM a better writer than he, but he's not a professional writer.

My point is, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. I used to write books with someone who writes with his wife under her name. He does the major plot work, and she writes the actual words in the book. He and I worked the same. I now work without him, having learned a lot of how to plot from him, but he can't write prose (other than editorials or letters) to save is soul. He can write as well as anyone--but doesn't have the ability to make interesting prose from nothing. ::shrug:: That's just how it is.

I don't know if it has to do with my deafness or jjust my personal weakness cuz when I was a child, I was told so many times by my teachers that I could never be a writer because I am deaf so it is like this form of brainwashing is still stuck with me. I keep asking myself what if ...there is no point to it now anyway but the thing that sucks is I would never know. Did what they say to me cause me to become stifled with writing. I used to love writing stories as a kid and I remember telling my teachers that I wanted to be a writer and that was when they told me that about my deafness preventing me from becoming good enough a writer. They made a big mistake in doing that cuz I always wanted to take creative writing in high school but I believed that there was no point. Now that I learned about deaf culture and ASL, I realized that those teachers did me a HUGE disservice to me.
I know it is never too late to try again but it is like I have this huge fear that they would end up being right. I know it is stupid and I need to work on getting over it. Oh well...

 

[shel90]

That may have nothing to do with deafness and simply a personal limitation. And I don't mean that in a negative way--just that everyone has their own abilities. Some people are good at cooking, while others aren't. Some are good at music (I have no musical ability whatsoever), while others aren't. Some are better at expressing themselves in writing and others aren't. I happen to have a degree in journalism, and I'm a published author--I know how to write a sentence. My brother is profoundly deaf, he has a degree in English (almost a second degree in education), and can write with style easily. Just something he's always been able to do. I'm horrible at math--he's not. I'm...okay, I'm trying to think of something I'm good at that he's not...and it's becoming humbling, the little jerk.... ::grumble:: Um... I can name that tune in 3 notes! Okay, that doesn't count. I'm better at philosophy than he is (mainly because it's less of an interest to him). I AM a better writer than he, but he's not a professional writer.

My point is, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. I used to write books with someone who writes with his wife under her name. He does the major plot work, and she writes the actual words in the book. He and I worked the same. I now work without him, having learned a lot of how to plot from him, but he can't write prose (other than editorials or letters) to save is soul. He can write as well as anyone--but doesn't have the ability to make interesting prose from nothing. ::shrug:: That's just how it is.

I don't know if it has to do with my deafness or jjust my personal weakness cuz when I was a child, I was told so many times by my teachers that I could never be a writer because I am deaf so it is like this form of brainwashing is still stuck with me. I keep asking myself what if ...there is no point to it now anyway but the thing that sucks is I would never know. Did what they say to me cause me to become stifled with writing. I used to love writing stories as a kid and I remember telling my teachers that I wanted to be a writer and that was when they told me that about my deafness preventing me from becoming good enough a writer. They made a big mistake in doing that cuz I always wanted to take creative writing in high school but I believed that there was no point. Now that I learned about deaf culture and ASL, I realized that those teachers did me a HUGE disservice to me.
I know it is never too late to try again but it is like I have this huge fear that they would end up being right. I know it is stupid and I need to work on getting over it. Oh well...

After I learned ASL and how freeing it was for me, I went thru a stage of questioning and analyzing so many things about my upbringing in the oral world..so many "what if" questions. I realized I had to stop cuz it wasn't going to do me any good. When Jillo brought up the issue of writing, I started the "what ifs" again. Lol.

I was always the kind of person who was to experience and learn as much as I can and it pissed me off when I realized how limited I was growing up despite being around hearing people. Some people r happy not needing to know nor learn as much as they can so maybe they would have been happier around hearing people like my best friend. I needed more than that...

Iam sure one of these days I will go for my PhD...ha!

 

[Capmeister]

I don't know if it has to do with my deafness or jjust my personal weakness cuz when I was a child, I was told so many times by my teachers that I could never be a writer because I am deaf so it is like this form of brainwashing is still stuck with me.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. A deaf person can't be a writer? Cow cookies.

I don't understand telling any child they have this or that limitation--what's wrong with trying things and seeing how they work out?

I keep asking myself what if ...there is no point to it now anyway but the thing that sucks is I would never know. Did what they say to me cause me to become stifled with writing. I used to love writing stories as a kid and I remember telling my teachers that I wanted to be a writer and that was when they told me that about my deafness preventing me from becoming good enough a writer. They made a big mistake in doing that cuz I always wanted to take creative writing in high school but I believed that there was no point. Now that I learned about deaf culture and ASL, I realized that those teachers did me a HUGE disservice to me.
I know it is never too late to try again but it is like I have this huge fear that they would end up being right. I know it is stupid and I need to work on getting over it. Oh well...

If you can learn to lose some bad habits, you can do it. Really, all writing is about unlearning some bad habits that are common and a lot of practice. But I understanding being afraid to try and fearing rejection... but you should maybe just write for your own enjoyment if you like it.

Some people r happy not needing to know nor learn as much as they can so maybe they would have been happier around hearing people like my best friend. I needed more than that...

Iam sure one of these days I will go for my PhD...ha!

I'll never get past my BA in Journalism--just don't want to take the time or spend the money, but it doesn't stop me from reading and learning, and I'd bet anything the same is true of you.

Many people go through life in a state of intellectual inertia. So long as you're not doing that, you don't need degrees or whatever. You just need to keep thinking.

 

[shel90]

I will exchange a story for a story. I began exposing my son and myself to the Deaf community from the time he was 9 months old, so for him, he had never known a time when I didn't sign. When he was about 5, I saw him telling a friend from his preschool that "Mommy is deaf." Naturally, I later explained to him that I wasn't deaf, but hearing. He continued to insist that I must be deaf. When I asked him why he believed that, he signed, "Mommy sign, Mommy deaf."

I am in total agreement with your opinions on advocacy. To attempt to advocate for the needs of an entire population without ever having taken the time to actually experience what those needs might be from association is presumptive. What most hearing people think the deaf want is not even close to what the deaf will say they want. We HAVE to stop being so egocentric. It isn't working. Our deaf children contiune to suffer becasue everything is approached from the standpoint of hearing being preferable to deaf. The attempt is to correct the absence of auditory function, and that is not what needs to be focused on. A deaf person can function as well as a hearing person, both educationally and professionally, without auditory function when they are provided the opportunity to do so from their inate position of strength. Sound perception is just that, sound perception. It is not correlated to increased functioning.

 

[shel90]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. A deaf person can't be a writer? Cow cookies.

I don't understand telling any child they have this or that limitation--what's wrong with trying things and seeing how they work out?



If you can learn to lose some bad habits, you can do it. Really, all writing is about unlearning some bad habits that are common and a lot of practice. But I understanding being afraid to try and fearing rejection... but you should maybe just write for your own enjoyment if you like it.



I'll never get past my BA in Journalism--just don't want to take the time or spend the money, but it doesn't stop me from reading and learning, and I'd bet anything the same is true of you.

Many people go through life in a state of intellectual inertia. So long as you're not doing that, you don't need degrees or whatever. You just need to keep thinking.

This is why I have a big distrust of specialist or teachers who think they know what's best for deaf people without really knowing ASL, deaf culture or dont have deaf ed/studies training background. They really do not understand deaf people and the fact we are capable to do anything. Now, it seems like they view that all deaf people will do better if they have auditory function..they dont even realize that deaf people do just fine without it and without learning how to speak/lipread.

 

[jillio]

U know, now that I think about it..I noticed that my writing skills have been stuck at a plateau since high school even though I have a Master's degree...no matter how many books of a higher level of English (let's say at the PhD level) I read, I can't put those thoughts or terminology into my writing. I am unable to play around with my English and I have difficulty putting a lot of my thoughts on the level I can read into my writing. Like with your and other hearing ADers such as rockdrummer, rick, or whoever, I noticed your writing styles are at the level I seem unable to reach. I feel my writing or maybe even my thoughts are too simplistic and lack creativity. Yes, my grammar is pretty decent but I feel I should be writing or organizing my thoughts at a much higher level. I never could pick up on that kind of thing from my hearing peers growing up. I have to really work very hard to write research papers that use a lot of terminilogy and then I struggle with constructing my sentences using the more advanced words. I hope this makes sense?

Even my Expressive language in ASL is not at the level as my brother's level of ASL.

Personally, I am very impressed with your writing skills. But maybe this will help--I work with a Ph.D. from Nepal. He is obviously very well educated, has traveled the world, and possesses a very fluid intelligence. Yet, when he starts to write a paper for publication, he asks for assistance. He knows his material inside and out, and has a very good command of spoken English, yet it is not his native language so he experiences the same difficulties all ESL people do. I asked him if he wrote in his native language if he would experience the same difficulties, and he said no. Its a matter of translation.

 

[jillio]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. A deaf person can't be a writer? Cow cookies.

I don't understand telling any child they have this or that limitation--what's wrong with trying things and seeing how they work out?



If you can learn to lose some bad habits, you can do it. Really, all writing is about unlearning some bad habits that are common and a lot of practice. But I understanding being afraid to try and fearing rejection... but you should maybe just write for your own enjoyment if you like it.



I'll never get past my BA in Journalism--just don't want to take the time or spend the money, but it doesn't stop me from reading and learning, and I'd bet anything the same is true of you.

Many people go through life in a state of intellectual inertia. So long as you're not doing that, you don't need degrees or whatever. You just need to keep thinking.

Great post. I hate it when I hear a child has been told they can't do something simply because they are deaf.

 

[rockdrummer]

This is why I have a big distrust of specialist or teachers who think they know what's best for deaf people without really knowing ASL, deaf culture or dont have deaf ed/studies training background. They really do not understand deaf people and the fact we are capable to do anything. Now, it seems like they view that all deaf people will do better if they have auditory function..they dont even realize that deaf people do just fine without it and without learning how to speak/lipread.

I hope that nowadays folks in the busniss of teaching our children are qualified to do so. I can't believe a qualified instructor would suggest that you couldn't become a writer because you are deaf. You wouldn't be able to write effectivly to the majority if you didn't learn english literacy. Being deaf has nothing to do with it. To the portion I bolded, I would imagine that type of person would in fact have difficulty in terms of communication with the hearing population. Or they resort to writing stuff down which I hear from many deafies is a pain. It seems that the alternatives are somewhat limited.

 

[Capmeister]

Great post. I hate it when I hear a child has been told they can't do something simply because they are deaf.

My brother was only ever told "you can do anything but hear." Perhaps that's why his first degree was in English and he DID plan on becoming a writer. (I told him saying you want to work as a profressional writer full time is like saying "I want to be a rock star" and is very hard and he should work on writing part time and then once he breaks in see if he can do it full time. What he found out was that he didn't enjoy writing so much as the ideas he had to write about. Happens a lot--people want to "have written" without actually learning all there is about writing. As good a writer as he was/is, he wasn't professionally polished. I told him I'd teach him... but he ended up realizing it wasn't really for him. He ended up going into education instead, and I gotta say, it seems like his calling.

I, for one, am happy to see another deaf teacher who will tell his students: "You can do anything but hear."

 

[shel90]

I hope that nowadays folks in the busniss of teaching our children are qualified to do so. I can't believe a qualified instructor would suggest that you couldn't become a writer because you are deaf. You wouldn't be able to write effectivly to the majority if you didn't learn english literacy. Being deaf has nothing to do with it. To the portion I bolded, I would imagine that type of person would in fact have difficulty in terms of communication with the hearing population. Or they resort to writing stuff down which I hear from many deafies is a pain. It seems that the alternatives are somewhat limited.

I know and I understand that so what I mean was it is not the end of the world if their children were unable to develop speech and lipreadin/listening skills. Some people think that the deaf children r doomed if they don't develop oral skills but as long as they develop proficiency in language, they r capable of living full lives. I don't use my oral skills much anymore and I am living a full and rich life. My brother has no oral skills and he is happy with his life as a professional and homeowner.

Yes writing on paper is a pain but with today's technology, many workplaces have emails so can use that. Of course it wud be easier to be a hearing and seeing person who has full use of their bodies but people in wheelchairs, blind or whatever do find ways around barriers and live their lives to the fullest potential. If people keep telling them they need to see, hear or walk, their lives would be better but to say that to people can cause unhappiness or depression. Instead, people should realize and accept that it is ok to be different. I don't pity people who r blind or in wheelchairs unless they pity themselves.

 

[shel90]

I hope that nowadays folks in the busniss of teaching our children are qualified to do so. I can't believe a qualified instructor would suggest that you couldn't become a writer because you are deaf. You wouldn't be able to write effectivly to the majority if you didn't learn english literacy. Being deaf has nothing to do with it. To the portion I bolded, I would imagine that type of person would in fact have difficulty in terms of communication with the hearing population. Or they resort to writing stuff down which I hear from many deafies is a pain. It seems that the alternatives are somewhat limited.

I know and I understand that so what I mean was it is not the end of the world if the deaf children were unable to develop speech and lipreadin/listening skills. Some people think that the deaf children r doomed if they don't develop oral skills but as long as they develop proficiency in language, they r capable of living full lives. I don't use my oral skills much anymore and I am living a full and rich life. My brother has no oral skills and he is happy with his life as a professional and homeowner. If the deaf children don't develop proficency in language especially in reading and writing then life will be very difficult. I would rather the children develop language proficency than learn how to "normally" communicate with hearing people. I just see differently from most hearing people cuz I have lived through both kinds of livestyles and I probably will always will.

Yes writing on paper is a pain but with today's technology, many workplaces have emails so can use that. Of course it wud be easier to be a hearing and seeing person who has full use of their bodies but people in wheelchairs, blind or whatever do find ways around barriers and live their lives to the fullest potential. If people keep telling them they need to see, hear or walk, their lives would be better but to say that to people can cause unhappiness or depression. Instead, people should realize and accept that it is ok to be different. I don't pity people who r blind or in wheelchairs unless they pity themselves.

 

[Boult]

hmmmmm

 

[jillio]

My brother was only ever told "you can do anything but hear." Perhaps that's why his first degree was in English and he DID plan on becoming a writer. (I told him saying you want to work as a profressional writer full time is like saying "I want to be a rock star" and is very hard and he should work on writing part time and then once he breaks in see if he can do it full time. What he found out was that he didn't enjoy writing so much as the ideas he had to write about. Happens a lot--people want to "have written" without actually learning all there is about writing. As good a writer as he was/is, he wasn't professionally polished. I told him I'd teach him... but he ended up realizing it wasn't really for him. He ended up going into education instead, and I gotta say, it seems like his calling.

I, for one, am happy to see another deaf teacher who will tell his students: "You can do anything but hear."

And I as well!!!!

 

[shel90]

Great post. I hate it when I hear a child has been told they can't do something simply because they are deaf.

Yea I know...I wish I knew better when I was a kid. Even when I graduated from high school, my VR counselor asked me what career I wanted to pursue and I said Interior designer and she said it wasn't an ideal career for a deaf person. Again, that crushed my self esteem. If I knew what I know now, I would have told all of those non-believers to kiss my deaf ass. LOL!

 

[Sweetmind]

Originally Posted by Shelb90 I know and I understand that so what I mean was it is not the end of the world if the deaf children were unable to develop speech and lipreadin/listening skills. Some people think that the deaf children r doomed if they don't develop oral skills but as long as they develop proficiency in language, they r capable of living full lives. I don't use my oral skills much anymore and I am living a full and rich life. My brother has no oral skills and he is happy with his life as a professional and homeowner. If the deaf children don't develop proficency in language especially in reading and writing then life will be very difficult. I would rather the children develop language proficency than learn how to "normally" communicate with hearing people. I just see differently from most hearing people cuz I have lived through both kinds of livestyles iand I probably will always will.

Bingo! Thank you very much for saying it. Now think hard to look back to this life of Martha Vineyard, Deaf and Hearing people have no problem and dont treat each other from the bittered negative attitude about our deafness. I am very sure there are no hearing devices at all. Hearing people dont even think about our deafness while they mingled each other every day. Everybody spoke their hands to each other that works out so well. Thats positive reinforcement that I want it back into our lives again. No more excuses!

It s all about business to make $$$$$$$$$$$ power, control and power over our deafness. Whats more hearing people refused to work with us from a start since they are still having an attitude toward Deaf people in this society. So what is so good about hearing device after all we dont hear everything? It is just not making any sense to me anymore.

(I hope it works with italics and black bold on your comment that I want to point that out.) That's the problem in today's world that we are still struggled not to have a good English written or orally speaking to be perfect as they are expecting us to do for years without ASL and Signed English not SEE as BI BI languages. Thats how I see what's the point for us to have the enforcement for us to hear and speak for their hearing s sake after all they made too many mistakes for years and years. I feel why should I allowed them to conform or manipulate or force me to do this and that is not a great idea to have those dysfunctional issues in our deafness that they did created to make it look like it s US Deafies. It is very offensive to me and many Deaf children. So what s their excuse!

That 's a big turn off in a big time on the adveristment board to be shown.

I just cant believe people are tolerating this kind of attitude and abusive behaviors to be continued that is not a good change at all. Thats why I am very outspoken about this in a big time that bothers me for a long time. Guess what it s no different from Sexual abuse 's attitude as well as of hoping that you understand what I am trying to say.

Peace!

 

[Capmeister]

Yea I know...I wish I knew better when I was a kid. Even when I graduated from high school, my VR counselor asked me what career I wanted to pursue and I said Interior designer and she said it wasn't an ideal career for a deaf person. Again, that crushed my self esteem. If I knew what I know now, I would have told all of those non-believers to kiss my deaf ass. LOL!

Wait... why does someone need to be hearing for that? Basically, anything that might cause you to communicate with someone was out?!?! So, what, the deaf should just dig ditches?