Indian blood heritage..

CSign said:
It looks like Cherokee Nation requires only that you prove you are descended from someone on the Dawes Roll. The other two have other requirements such as being on the Baker roll, as well as having a certain blood quantum.

All Things Cherokee: Article - Joining the Nation - What is Required?

Grayma, do you guys think it could have had anything to do with the discrimination he was likely facing? I understand about wanting to be, "American", but I wonder if perhaps he had other motivations besides that...
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We will never know. His daughter, my husband's great-grandmother (who helped raise my husband) died many years ago. Everything we know about her parents we learned from her. I don't know how much discrimination the family would have been facing where they were in Oklahoma at that time. She never complained of any, and everybody would have known that both her parents were at least half Indian.

To be honest, the first time she told me that story, I thought she didn't know what she was talking about. She didn't know the name of the Dawes roll, she just told me her dad was an Indian and they wanted him to sign some papers saying that, but he wouldn't because he said the Civil War was fought to unify the states and we should all just be Americans and that's what he was.

I didn't think that made any sense. Later I learned about the Dawes roll and realized what she was talking about. In fact, over the years that I knew I learned that quite often when I thought she didn't know what she was talking about, I was wrong and she was right.

From her stories her father was a very interesting man and quite the independent thinker.
 
I want to add that it is clear that there was discrimination against Indians in most places for years- and it was discrimination that brought my husband's family to Oklahoma in the first place (the trail of tears).

I just don't know how much there would have been in their local small Oklahoma town at the time that my husband's great-grandmother was growing up, especially since she never told us of any. My impression was that there in their town, there were a *lot* of Indians, not just them.

She was six feet tall when she was young- by the time I met her she was just over five feet because of the way osteoporosis had twisted her and shrunk her with age.

None of the kids seem to have inherited any obviously Indian traits. Except our youngest two kids never sunburn- one of them was born darker than I am- and she has keloid scarring, which we were told is probably because of my husband's non-caucasian genetic background.

But nobody would ever
 
Reba said:
Sometimes the claim to American Indian ancestry isn't vetted enough:

Massachusetts Democratic Senate Candidate Elizabeth Warren Defends Registering as Part Native American, Saying She Wanted to Get Into ‘Luncheons’ | TheBlaze.com
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That would be very awkward... The Cherokee Nation doesn't want that. Now, they're not discouraging people like Elizabeth from learning about and accepting their Cherokee Heritage. In other words, they're not saying "You don't have Cherokee blood somewhere." In fact, they want "unregistered" people (which I am) to join and participate in Cherokee historical clubs or cultural societies to learn about, preserve, and strengthen Cherokee culture and language. What they don't want is people claiming heritage for membership without proof going back to the Dawes Rolls, as they are pretty much considered complete, showing names as well as roll numbers that you can refer back to if you know where to look.

Another reason it's awkward is because I don't see where her connection to Indians is, given the degree of generational separation from full-indian status, registered or not. That would be like, my grandmother was full-blood, but my great-grand daughter would be Elizabeth Warren (if she were indeed my great-grand daughter). You see, my grandmother didn't even live long enough for me to be old enough to start remembering people, my great-great-grandmother had to survive the boarding schools, and the "indianness" was drummed out before my great-grandmother showed up. I have a copy of a (gasp) Christian marriage license showing the union between my great-grandparents. Our fates were sealed. I have been living largely white, though with a lot of resentment at the loss of Cherokee culture and other family members who didn't bother to try to reclaim it. I mean my Dad took much pride in it, though he lived, dressed, worked, and spoke as a white man. For me, my heritage is important to me because of changes I've gone through in my life. It's more than a historical footnote to me, yet other family members would say, "Yes, be proud of your heritage, but GET OVER IT. It happened, it's over, move on."

Can you imagine how much further a great-grandchild would be removed from the history of my Dad and I sharing our history, especially when the history in Dad's time came from the early 1900's when he was a boy and later a young man? That is my point.

In my opinion, a 1/32 doesn't mean a damn thing because she has already climbed much higher than I can ever dream of. She's a Harvard academic, for hellsake. The worse of the bunch when it comes to economics. Now, she's a bureaucrat. These can be some of the worse kinds of people out there. I'm not going into it here. The point is, she hasn't suffered anything that I can see. I've had to deal with economic setbacks from a long time ago simply because teachers didn't want to support my Dad's education to the extent that they supported fully-white children when they found out my Dad's mother was Indian. They saw him as "tainted." He only had an eight-grade education. I've had to jump all the way from there to a master's degree. Does she have ANY idea how hard that is? She already had educated parents who helped her succeed as any well-funded and schooled white family would. I'm not just talking money, I'm talking educationally and culturally. High school was a bit scary, but it was a lot closer to my Dad's background than college was ever was. Dad schooled himself on high-school level material. It was a shock to me when I got to college. And because of my deafness, I've always felt like an outsider. That is what people like her don't understand. This sort of thing can make a drunk Indian shred window curtains from the 1940s with bare hands and tear up a house with the sheer anger.
 
deafdrummer said:
That would be very awkward... The Cherokee Nation doesn't want that. Now, they're not discouraging people like Elizabeth from learning about and accepting their Cherokee Heritage. In other words, they're not saying "You don't have Cherokee blood somewhere." In fact, they want "unregistered" people (which I am) to join and participate in Cherokee historical clubs or cultural societies to learn about, preserve, and strengthen Cherokee culture and language. What they don't want is people claiming heritage for membership without proof going back to the Dawes Rolls, as they are pretty much considered complete, showing names as well as roll numbers that you can refer back to if you know where to look.

Another reason it's awkward is because I don't see where her connection to Indians is, given the degree of generational separation from full-indian status, registered or not. That would be like, my grandmother was full-blood, but my great-grand daughter would be Elizabeth Warren (if she were indeed my great-grand daughter). You see, my grandmother didn't even live long enough for me to be old enough to start remembering people, my great-great-grandmother had to survive the boarding schools, and the "indianness" was drummed out before my great-grandmother showed up. I have a copy of a (gasp) Christian marriage license showing the union between my great-grandparents. Our fates were sealed. I have been living largely white, though with a lot of resentment at the loss of Cherokee culture and other family members who didn't bother to try to reclaim it. I mean my Dad took much pride in it, though he lived, dressed, worked, and spoke as a white man. For me, my heritage is important to me because of changes I've gone through in my life. It's more than a historical footnote to me, yet other family members would say, "Yes, be proud of your heritage, but GET OVER IT. It happened, it's over, move on."

Can you imagine how much further a great-grandchild would be removed from the history of my Dad and I sharing our history, especially when the history in Dad's time came from the early 1900's when he was a boy and later a young man? That is my point.

In my opinion, a 1/32 doesn't mean a damn thing because she has already climbed much higher than I can ever dream of. She's a Harvard academic, for hellsake. The worse of the bunch when it comes to economics. Now, she's a bureaucrat. These can be some of the worse kinds of people out there. I'm not going into it here. The point is, she hasn't suffered anything that I can see. I've had to deal with economic setbacks from a long time ago simply because teachers didn't want to support my Dad's education to the extent that they supported fully-white children when they found out my Dad's mother was Indian. They saw him as "tainted." He only had an eight-grade education. I've had to jump all the way from there to a master's degree. Does she have ANY idea how hard that is? She already had educated parents who helped her succeed as any well-funded and schooled white family would. I'm not just talking money, I'm talking educationally and culturally. High school was a bit scary, but it was a lot closer to my Dad's background than college was ever was. Dad schooled himself on high-school level material. It was a shock to me when I got to college. And because of my deafness, I've always felt like an outsider. That is what people like her don't understand. This sort of thing can make a drunk Indian shred window curtains from the 1940s with bare hands and tear up a house with the sheer anger.
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Harvard is attempting to avoid their own embarrassment by not confirming whether the lone Native American Indian that was registered by Harvard at the time was in fact Warren in the effort to claim inclusiveness among professors there.
Harvard won’t say if Liz Warren listed as minority - BostonHerald.com

Warren goofed.
 
kokonut said:
Warren goofed.
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Yes, she did. By not clarifying that although she is of Cherokee descent, she is unregistered. There is confusion as to whether being registered AT A UNIVERSITY as being part Cherokee is the same thing as being a registered member of the CHEROKEE NATION, the UNITED KEETOOWAH BAND, and the EASTERN BAND OF CHEROKEES. I think that no, it is not the same thing. I don't recall the applications of any document I've signed saying that you had to enclose with the application evidence of registered/enrolled status.

If I had someone ask me if I was Indian or had any history in my background, I would state very clearly by saying, "Yes, I have Cherokee ancestry, with my grandmother being the last full-blood, making me one/quarter. HOWEVER, I am not enrolled, perhaps because my ancestors did not trust government officials and feared for the family's survival."

Read further here on the Warren situation:
Was it right for Elizabeth Warren to identify as a minority? Will voters care? - CSMonitor.com

You see that she dresses and lives as a white woman. I mean WHITE... The hair, everything. She is very much part of the fiat currency regime with her gov't and Harvard background. She IS part of the problem for anglo society, which is going ever deeper into socialism. She has NO IDEA that she is actively working to destroy the very society she wants to preserve. No clue that she's doing it very deliberately. That is how some the earliest American colonies failed economically and mortally.

I have a correction to make, and that is, her parents were supposedly working-class folks. I wonder how she got into Harvard. She did not have the benefit of well-connected parents like I thought she did.

Anyway, I wondered how many Indians she would have found at Harvard... It is money well wasted, depending on the degree.
 
OMFG...

:faintsmiley: (Moderator, you need to add a smiley fainting and falling backwards!)

Unbelievable! This is her! I have to find out who put this up there! Now, let's see how deep this rabbit hole is and whether I will find fresh carrots down there. Look here.

Julia Jones Pate (1866 - 1930) - Find A Grave Memorial

See that photo and the photo I provided! It's her, and the names match up! I have contacted the person who set up this memorial! What a find!
 
I found something else on the Cherokee Nation:

The Citizenship Debate between Cherokee Tribes

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The Cherokee Nation voted on March 3, 2007 to amend our Constitution to clarify eligibility for Cherokee citizenship. An overwhelming majority voted that to be a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, you must be able to trace your lineage to one Indian ancestor listed on the base roll of our people, also known as the Dawes Roll. Our Constitution has been amended accordingly.

Heritage is different from citizenship. Many people with genuine Indian heritage will never meet the qualifications to become citizens in a federally recognized tribe. The Cherokee Nation does not question anyone's claims of heritage or ancestry, but merely points out the significant difference between claiming heritage and having citizenship in a federally recognized Indian tribe. We encourage people of Cherokee heritage to take pride in and become active in heritage and cultural organizations even if they are not eligible for citizenship.

Ancestors of Cherokee Nation citizens were forcibly removed from their homes in Tennessee and the southeast to the Indian Territory in 1838-39 and the Cherokee Nation contends that no Cherokee clans, bands, tribes or nations were left behind or have continued to exist in Tennessee.
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HOWEVER, I agree with the following from the same author - "Any time you are changing your Constitution to exclude people, you are heading in the wrong direction. The majority of people may have spoken, but the majority can also be very wrong."

After all, "Consider the case of Samuel Worcester, He was a "white" missionary, yet his family was considered part of the tribe. When they made it illegal for whites to live among the Indians, Worcester went to jail instead of leaving the tribe. Would someone not "fully accepted" into the tribe make such a sacrifice? I think not.

"Many wealthy Cherokees were slave owners, and the slave families were accepted into the tribe. Sadly, the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma recently chose to amend their Constitution in order to exclude descendants listed on the Intermarried White and Freedmen rolls from their citizenship.

"Another example of equality among the Cherokee is the important role that women played within their society. When preparing the Cherokee peace delegation to London, Lieutenant Timberlake was shocked that the Cherokee would "allow their women full liberty, without fear of punishment." Attakullakulla then asks, "Since white men, as well as red, were born of women, is it not the custom of the white people to also admit their women into the council?"

"Each tribe consists of seven clans, and there is even a division of the Long Hair Clan (Anigilohi) that is specifically called Strangers: "Prisoners of war, orphans of other tribes, and others with no Cherokee tribe were often adopted into this clan, thus the name Strangers."

Why can't I be a part of THAT? There is the issue of federally recognized tribes that further serve to divide up the native population.

<exit stage left to another stage>

You know, it's been amazing... Over the years, I have periodically taken interest in my Cherokee heritage, but I was limited by the tools available to me years ago. I asked Dad some of what he knew. I found some books at the book store. I went to Tahlequah, OK to visit the Cherokee Nation in the mid 90s to get a better sense of myself through events and the books they had there.

I get the feeling that these tools were a means of bringing awareness to a problem presented to me by the Universe. That's all they were intended to do. In my situation, I needed more tools, so the Universe apparently created the people needed to be able to make computers, connect them, and store the important documents that may one day clarify my history, and failing that, reunite us all as One Nation, The Cherokees, and I want to see that happen for all Indian Nations.

We cannot allow Christians to embrace and extend by saying, "Awesome, you are Cherokees, you are Blackfoot. That is so neat... Where will the Christmas party be held?" Ahhhh! Anybody notice that the retail stores close for Thanksgiving and Christmas? Why not for any other holidays? We are not even given PAID holidays if we say, "This holiday is significant to me, and I would like to ask for it off," like the Winter Solstice celebrations. They embrace different cultures out of goodwill, and then extend their own Christian beliefs. See, they won't pay us for our respective holidays, and yet, they give us all paid holiday on Christmas, so they can try to get away without being called exclusive.

Now, let's go down to the bottom of the pond and raise this log up: Cherokee GLBT people. This is what's going on.

Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama Boycott

The author writing this is familiar to me, though I don't know him. I have seen him on video.

-----------------------------
The Cherokee people were once a society that valued the diversity of the people within their community. Many of the modern Cherokee tribes have forgotten this aspect of their culture.

Throughout the history of Native Americans, tribes believed that everyone had a gift and something to contribute to society. Today, the term Two Spirit is commonly used within tribes to describe gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered (LGBT) people. It should be noted that not all two spirit people identify themselves as LGBT.

More than 155 Nations had roles for Two Spirit people, and each had a specific name, meaning, and traditions, including: n�dleeh� (Navaho), winkte (Lakota), alyha and hwame (Mohave), and he'eman (Cheyenne). Two Spirit Native Americans were greatly respected in their communities in the past, but the anti-LGBT sentiment found in other American communities is often the norm in Native American communities today. [Source: GLAAD.org]

We are organizing a boycott against the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama after a recent decision by their governing body to discriminate against the two-spirit community, gays, lesbians, and non-Christian members of the tribe.

In an email from a clan leader Stanley [stanleyandhelen@bellsouth.net] on Tuesday, April 5, 2011:

On 2 April 2011, The Governing Body of The Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama met at the Tribal Office Complex at Falkville, Alabama. After a timely meeting, I was able to bring to the floor the question of the celebration of two-spirit community [Ski-gin] or backwards dancers. After much discussion of our traditional ways and customs and traditional ways and customs of other areas across this U.S.A., The Echota Cherokee of Alabama's Governing Body decision was that The Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama does not celebrate the two-spirit community or backwards dancers. [emphasis added]

This is a very long page. You really need to read this from the perspective that Christianity has infiltrated the thought processes and customs of the Cherokee, and I feel these must be rooted out and the Cherokee ways fully restored as much as possible in order to bring about a healing and unification of the people.

Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama Boycott

You can see the parallels between the Cherokee world and that of white society, where even the whites themselves see something wrong with their own church when it persecutes people who are LGBT or ANYBODY who is not a bible-thumping insurgent who make the rest of the Christians look bad.
 
Reba said:
Sometimes the claim to American Indian ancestry isn't vetted enough:

Massachusetts Democratic Senate Candidate Elizabeth Warren Defends Registering as Part Native American, Saying She Wanted to Get Into ‘Luncheons’ | TheBlaze.com
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Indeed. And she was hired and listed as an Indian hire. That slot was set aside for the hiring of somebody who actually is Indian, who has faced discrimination for their race. So for this blonde, blue eyed woman who nobody has ever thought, "Hmmmm, you might be Indiana, I don't think I'll hire you" to take that job slot under false pretenses is pretty obnoxious.
 
deafdrummer said:
I found something else on the Cherokee Nation:

The Citizenship Debate between Cherokee Tribes


Ancestors of Cherokee Nation citizens were forcibly removed from their homes in Tennessee and the southeast to the Indian Territory in 1838-39 and the Cherokee Nation contends that no Cherokee clans, bands, tribes or nations were left behind or have continued to exist in Tennessee.
Click to expand...

You probably already figured this out, but a lightbulb just went off in my head- THIS is probably why my husband's great-great-grandmother and your great-grandmother were named Tennessee- longing, regret, the lost homeland.
 
I have 30% Indian blood because of my father and his families are part of Cherokee.
 
AND, I need to mention that the "tribe" mentioned in the discussion on Native American LGBT people is on the list of FRAUDULENT GROUPS presenting themselves as Indian Bands or Tribes. I'm referring to Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama. It would be another thing if they simply presented themselves as historical clubs or cultural group/societies, BUT no one else other than Cherokee Nation, United Keetoowah Band, and the Easter Band of Cherokees NC are federally recognized tribes or bands of the Cherokees. Period. Proof is here.

Issues-Documents

Apparently, misrepresentation has been made on the part of this group, and I'm waiting to find out the status on Christian intrusion into Cherokee Nation and two-spirit people's status within Cherokee Nation, as I have to wonder if the contention over this fraudulent group might cover the the issue over LGBT people. We'll see...
 
Bebonang said:
On the bold statement, there had been very heavy discrimination against Natives (remember that the name or the word "Indian" is from India in another continent across the Atlantic Ocean) who had been suffered under the hands of the military soldiers and President Abraham Lincoln (government). It was a terrible ordeal having to walk to Oklahoma and put in the reservation against our wills. They took the lands away from us. Not only that, they made us changed our ways, traditions and native languages (some of the Natives went underground to have ceremonies and speaking our languages).

My great grandmother (I am 66 years old now) was involved in the Trails of Tears but she escaped into the mountains. She had suffered so much and my grandmother cried about having to keep secrets from the whites for many years like her mother. Hiding her identity is only way to survive this terrible discrimination against her. No wonder she does not have any Dawes rolls in her own home village. She was not the only one but there were lots of us being discriminated from the whites for many years since they came over here from Europe and Spain. Today we are still being discriminate.

It is up to the person who want to label themselves as "American" instead of "Natives or Indians". They are worried that they will not be able to get jobs or any kind of benefits for them to be like everyone. Blacks still have problems with discrimination too. There seem to be no equality among us Natives and Blacks. I was sooo thrilled about having President Obama to be the first black president of the United States of America. I hope someday our first Native would become the president of the United States instead of being "Chief". Here in my reserve (First Nation), we have Chief and Counsel to discuss with our people. :cool2:
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Bebonang- your Great Grandmother sounds like she was an amazing person. The strength and tenacity she needed to escape speaks volumes about her character.

I'm glad that in your family, you were able to retain the sanctity of where you come from and who you are.

I think the situation was quite similar for my G Grandma (Coast Miwok) hiding where she came from to protect her family. It is a shame that they were forced to deny such an important part of who they were.

On the positive note, those that went "underground" to practice the traditions, ceremonies etc. did a good thing. At least that way, not all was lost.

My heart hurts for stories like that which your family endured.

The story in my family, is that we descended from a Cherokee Chief. I haven't been able to find evidence to support that as of yet.

All I know is stories like yours, are important to share. People need to be reminded and educated about what really happened.

Your Great Grandma is an inspiration.
 
deafdrummer said:
OMFG...

:faintsmiley: (Moderator, you need to add a smiley fainting and falling backwards!)

Unbelievable! This is her! I have to find out who put this up there! Now, let's see how deep this rabbit hole is and whether I will find fresh carrots down there. Look here.

Julia Jones Pate (1866 - 1930) - Find A Grave Memorial

See that photo and the photo I provided! It's her, and the names match up! I have contacted the person who set up this memorial! What a find!
Click to expand...

Did you get a response?

I contribute to Find A Grave - Millions of Cemetery Records as well. It's a great website, and you really lucked out with those pics. Had you seen them before?
 
deafdrummer said:
BOOM...

American Holocaust of Native American Indians (FULL Documentary) - YouTube

I'm sorry that the Youfuck captioning is still being used, but the text under the video explains the gist of it. Send this to every damned body you know.

I noticed that my ancestors wrote "w" for white on the census forms, or maybe the census taker was sympathetic to the cause and "helped" them out. It was obvious as hell that my great-grandmother was Indian. See that on the form below? How's that for eradication!?
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I only got to watch part of that video (I'll watch the rest later), but wow. Brought tears to my eyes. Incredibly powerful.

As to them being listed as "white", there were a few census' where my ancestors were listed as white as well.

In my geneaology research, I've learned a few things..

1). The enumerators did not always accurately write down the information. They would misspell names, write the wrong place of birth, etc. etc.

2). They either didn't ask, or disregarded the question about race and just wrote "w".

3). Our ancestors may have just answered "white" for fear of what could happen.

Your point about eradication is spot on. It wasn't always in the governments best interest to really "know" about the native population.
 
CSign said:
Did you get a response?

I contribute to Find A Grave - Millions of Cemetery Records as well. It's a great website, and you really lucked out with those pics. Had you seen them before?
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I'm still waiting...

These particular photos, I had not seen them before, especially of my g-grandmother by the cow.

Oh, and I'm seeing evidence supposedly from other people, that although the Dawes Rolls are considered complete, they can be inaccurate in some cases, where the names are mispelled. As far as I know, there are no "possible" or close matches on my family members primarily because of either the age or the tribal affiliation.
 
deafdrummer said:
I'm still waiting...

These particular photos, I had not seen them before, especially of my g-grandmother by the cow.

Oh, and I'm seeing evidence supposedly from other people, that although the Dawes Rolls are considered complete, they can be inaccurate in some cases, where the names are mispelled. As far as I know, there are no "possible" or close matches primarily because of either the age or the tribal affiliation.
Click to expand...

I think in your case, you may have found a relative. At best, contributors usually only have photos of the grave. It seems like this person who uploaded those pics to the site are related to her in some way.

Very exciting for you! And that was one huge cow!
 
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