SEE is a language... It's English...

[Jiro]

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no one is saying that they must speak, just that they have to know the language that they are learning to read.

um.... learning to read at age 3?

 

[faire_jour]

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the majority of deaf high school students read at levels considered "far below" proficient.

if the only language a deaf 6 year old knows is ASL, how are they going to learn to read English? They need to learn the language first, get to a level in which they can use English for face to face communication and then they can learn to read.

(and no, i am not talking about speaking. I am talking about ANY way of being fluent in English.)

Oh no. Not doing this fight again. We went through all this last year. If a bunch of us here aren't examples enough for you, then I simply don't know what to post anymore.

have you looked at the research? At the test scores? It is simply a fact. I am sorry it makes you uncomfortable, but we can't find solutions if we deny there is even a problem.

 

[Beowulf]

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no one is saying that they must speak, just that they have to know the language that they are learning to read.

Apples and oranges. I do not know Spanish but can read quite a bit of it.

 

[Daredevel7]

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no one is saying that they must speak, just that they have to know the language that they are learning to read.

Are you sure about that?

Check out Chinese writings. Do you really have to know Chinese spoken language (Mandarin or Cantonese) in order to "read" Chinese. I bet I can learn how to write Chinese symbols without even having to speak Chinese at all.

Same concept.

 

[faire_jour]

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except that the research says it isn't that simple.

On the contrary. It does. Watch out for the word "language." It can be ASL as well as English.

the articles posted specify that ENGLISH needs to be mastered, not just language. It says that ASL users need to be able to use English in face to face to communication before learning to read.

again, not language and not speaking, but English.

 

[Jiro]

have you looked at the research? At the test scores? It is simply a fact. I am sorry it makes you uncomfortable, but we can't find solutions if we deny there is even a problem.

SSSSSHHHHHHUUUUUUTTTTTTT TTTTTHHHHHHEEEEE FFFFFFFFUUUUUCCCCCCCKKKKKK UUUUUUUPPPPPPPPPPPP

 

[Beowulf]

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the articles posted specify that ENGLISH needs to be mastered, not just language. It says that ASL users need to be able to use English in face to face to communication before learning to read.

again, not language and not speaking, but English.

Prove it. I didn't see anything of the sort.

 

[deafskeptic]

I take it that FJ doesn't like what WE have to say and that is why this thread is going to hell.

 

[shel90]

I take it that FJ doesn't like what WE have to say and that is why this thread is going to hell.

All hell will break loose when I am set loose in Vegas tmw!!!!!

 

[AlleyCat]

Will you put $100 on 5 black for me ??

 

[Daredevel7]

All hell will break loose when I am set loose in Vegas tmw!!!!!

See if you can see a Cirque du Soliel show! I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend Ka and O. Although it can be very $$$$$.

 

[Jiro]

I take it that FJ doesn't like what WE have to say and that is why this thread is going to hell.

all of you are going to hell. why? because we have audists to prod and poke with our forks.

 

[faire_jour]

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no one is saying that they must speak, just that they have to know the language that they are learning to read.

Are you sure about that?

Check out Chinese writings. Do you really have to know Chinese spoken language (Mandarin or Cantonese) in order to "read" Chinese. I bet I can learn how to write Chinese symbols without even having to speak Chinese at all.

Same concept.

again, it doesn't say you have to speak English, it says you have to be able to use and understand the language.

and again, it is not me saying this, but the researchers from the articles. (go yell at marschark! "there is no evidence that fluency in a signed language is sufficient to provide a deaf child with the underpinnings necessary for english literacy. Research and theory both point to the need for some kind of bridge. For some deaf individuals speechreading, for others it is cochlear implants or an english based signing system.)

 

[Jiro]

again, it doesn't say you have to speak English, it says you have to be able to use and understand the language.

and again, it is not me saying this, but the researchers from the articles. (go yell at marschark! "there is no evidence that fluency in a signed language is sufficient to provide a deaf child with the underpinnings necessary for english literacy. Research and theory both point to the need for some kind of bridge. For some deaf individuals speechreading, for others it is cochlear implants or an english based signing system.)

silence! go back to your room or i'll summon Bottie the Kraken

 

[posts from hell]

That is the question I constantly ask over and over and over and over and over and over again but never gets answered.

It is obvious that they dont have a answer for that.

Me too, lol

 

[shel90]

See if you can see a Cirque du Soliel show! I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend Ka and O. Although it can be very $$$$$.

I used to go to the shows when I went to Vegas yearly with my ex hubby. Saw one when they came to DC 4 years ago. My brother's girlfriend wants to go see one since she has never seen any of their shows. I will have to look at the price.

My hubby wants to go to a famous Vegas strip show.


I am in a dilemna.

However, I wont be using SEE in either shows.

 

[posts from hell]

See if you can see a Cirque du Soliel show! I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend Ka and O. Although it can be very $$$$$.

And Zumanity. For KA I would recommend to sit where I did the 2nd time... in the middle, not first row on the opening day..

 

[deafskeptic]

Will you put $100 on 5 black for me ??

As long as it isn't againist PFH.

 

[GrendelQ]

Wirelessly posted

from what i understand, the issue is trying to read and write a language that you do not know. ASL using children do not know English, so they have to learn an entirely new and different language to read and write. Literacy is linked to the ability to use (and know) english for face to face communication. Without that reading and writing are hugely difficult and that is why the "4th grade" barrier remains.

I once did, but now I don't think that's all there is to it. In the case of this particular experiment, they took what might be an unknown language (English) out of the equation and measured the students on their learning upon receiving instruction in ASL. They also measured their learning upon receiving instruction in printed text. Found that the ASL-using students, even those who were highly fluent native users, did better learning with the printed text, rather than the signed instruction. The finding that even deaf of deaf did better with printed text than sign was unexpected. In one of Marschark's experiments, deaf students did best using a mixed media approach with real time text (like CART). But in these varied approaches (with spoken language instruction, with ASL instruction, with printed text), the deaf students significantly underperformed hearing students. This led researchers to conclude that it's not a reading issue, or an English as a second language issue, but something else that differentiates the deaf learning process from the hearing learning process yet to be determined.

They are definitely not proposing that spoken language solves all ills -- these experiments show both the ASL-users and spoken English users underperforming.

A few weeks ago Marschark himself, on the NTID site wrote that the problem faces all deaf kids, those with CIs, too. And the solutions aren't yet available.

English and math traditionally have been the most difficult areas for deaf children, and as much as I wish we had the solutions (note the plural), we have not made a lot of progress in the last few decades. Certainly, kids with implants are doing better on average than kids without implants, but they still generally perform behind hearing peers. That, in itself, is a clue of where we need to look for some answers.

 

[shel90]

Will you put $100 on 5 black for me ??

Not a big gambler. I am too scared that SEE will come and attack me so I better stick with sightseeing.