Could budget cuts in the mainstream lead to increased enrollement at deaf schools?

AlleyCat said:
No. This is something we've discussed in this forum over a long time. ASL is absolutely not a spoken language. It is signed. There is a completely different syntax and grammar to it than any other language.

You would write and speak English the same. You would write and speak Hebrew the same. However, you cannot write and speak ASL the same. You do not "speak" ASL.

And just because we reference to it as being signed doesn't mean it requires less skill than speaking. If you're worried about semantics in terms of "speaking" and "signing" languages, you can simply refer to that person as being bilingual (or trilingual or however many languages that person is proficient in.)

Your last sentence "she signs ASL and she's learning English" could easily be re-phrased as "she's learning two languages, ASL and English".
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Um, yes. I study linguistics. I know that ASL is not a spoken language. I know the syntax is different. I also know that the parts of your brain activated when a native is signing is similar to what native Chinese speakers incur when reading Chinese characters.

I never said it required less skill that signing. And typically educators prefer to say something neutral, like the phrase you mentioned - "she's learning two languages, ASL and English" so they don't get cross remarks. But if I do say something like, "Abby signs ASL and Jessica speaks Spanish" there is a subtle inference - even if it's not intended - that one is superior. It's how a hearing-dominated world works.

If you really want to get into semantics, does this mean I can't say, "Listen to me!" in this forum? Because if you really want to change what hearing people think about dhh, you need to drop some of the silly.
 
...and just because I can read phonetic biblical (modern) Hebrew doesn't mean I know what the f I'm saying. I most certainly won't get very far in Israel with that background. :lol: But if you want to get into a discussion about Hebrew syntax, we can. *shrug*
 
I know that ASL is not a spoken language. But if I do say something like, "Abby signs ASL and Jessica speaks Spanish" there is a subtle inference - even if it's not intended - that one is superior. It's how a hearing-dominated world works.

If you really want to get into semantics, does this mean I can't say, "Listen to me!" in this forum? Because if you really want to change what hearing people think about dhh, you need to drop some of the silly.
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Agreed! It's a language. You can't orally speak ASL,(unless you're talking about orally expressing the gloss of Sign) but the other words such as "use" or "communicate with" have kind of a Augmentive/Alternative Communication/ Speech therapist vibe.
 
look, I don't want to argue. But I don't really like the cockiness.

People who hear are probably more likely to say they "speak" ASL. But if I knew ASL and English but could only read Hebrew, you could say I was multilingual, even if I could only effectively communicate in two. So if someone asked, I'd say, "I speak ASL and English, but I only read Hebrew" indicating that I can converse in two languages and know the phonetic alphabet of another. It's undertone.

"handspeak" anyone?
 
deafdyke said:
Agreed! It's a language. You can't orally speak ASL,(unless you're talking about orally expressing the gloss of Sign) but the other words such as "use" or "communicate with" have kind of a Augmentive/Alternative Communication/ Speech therapist vibe.
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totally!

Can I say, "Listen to what dd said"? *giggle*
 
TheOracle said:
look, I don't want to argue. But I don't really like the cockiness.

People who hear are probably more likely to say they "speak" ASL. But if I knew ASL and English but could only read Hebrew, you could say I was multilingual, even if I could only effectively communicate in two. So if someone asked, I'd say, "I speak ASL and English, but I only read Hebrew" indicating that I can converse in two languages and know the phonetic alphabet of another. It's undertone.

"handspeak" anyone?
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TheOracle said:
totally!

Can I say, "Listen to what dd said"? *giggle*
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deafdyke said:
Yeah, how would you know that $9 para professional will be doing a top quality job?
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Agreed. Not to mention that the resources that a dhh program or school has BLOWS a minimal accomondations placement out of the water.
Seriously faire joure, you think it's hard trying to get accomondations from a poorly funded/poorly resourced school for the deaf? The BIGGEST reason why Deaf Schools still exist, even after almost 40 years of mainstreaming being the norm, is b/c most mainstream schools are designed for the average kid..........You have NO fucking CLUE!
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parents are a huge factor in placement. If parents want a mainstream placement, they will get it. The first people you need to convice are them. Even if all admininstrators were sunndenly pro deaf schools, if a parent says no, it isn't going to happen. But if the parent wants the deaf school placement, they will be able to fight for it.

dd, you keep making claims about deaf schools, but do you actually have any personal experience with any? You keep saying i don't have a clue, but i have successfully argued two deaf school placements for a child as well as adding ASL at an oral school...what iep experience at deaf schools are you pulling from?
 
If you just want to follow me and post troll pics - that's redefining "who" is a troll here.
 
faire_jour said:
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parents are a huge factor in placement. If parents want a mainstream placement, they will get it. The first people you need to convice are them. Even if all admininstrators were sunndenly pro deaf schools, if a parent says no, it isn't going to happen. But if the parent wants the deaf school placement, they will be able to fight for it.

dd, you keep making claims about deaf schools, but do you actually have any personal experience with any? You keep saying i don't have a clue, but i have successfully argued two deaf school placements for a child as well as adding ASL at an oral school...what iep experience at deaf schools are you pulling from?
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Are there any organizations that seek to educate parents? I've seen a few websites, but...hopefully the Internet can really turn back the last 30-40 years of Oral tradition. That's something that I support...as long as parents see deafness as a disaster, they're going to try to overcompensate and shame ASL.
 
parents are a huge factor in placement. If parents want a mainstream placement, they will get it. The first people you need to convice are them. Even if all admininstrators were sunndenly pro deaf schools, if a parent says no, it isn't going to happen. But if the parent wants the deaf school placement, they will be able to fight for it.

dd, you keep making claims about deaf schools, but do you actually have any personal experience with any? You keep saying i don't have a clue, but i have successfully argued two deaf school placements for a child as well as adding ASL at an oral school...what iep experience at deaf schools are you pulling from?
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Yes, parents are a huge factor in placement, but if school administrators and places like Clarke tell them that " Oh they don't need Deaf Schools or formal programs", most parents will believe that. Not too many parents are educated on the advantages of Deaf Schools/formal sizable programs.
That is what the administors are counting on. That way they can get away with providing minimal hoh style accomondations (with MAYBE a 'terp) and claim to be covering their asses. Remember it's been many years since Deaf School has been the norm.
What does arguing for a Deaf School placement have to do with knowing how fucking crappy accomondations and attitude is in the mainstream? I actually do have quite a bit of experiance. Quite a few of my friends' kids (hoh and deaf) attend Deaf Schools or sizable dhh programs, and the difference between their experiance at their schools and hoh kids (I know many hoh kids in the mainstream) experiance in the mainstream (where it's just minimal accomondations) is completely and totally different!
 
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deafdyke said:
parents are a huge factor in placement. If parents want a mainstream placement, they will get it. The first people you need to convice are them. Even if all admininstrators were sunndenly pro deaf schools, if a parent says no, it isn't going to happen. But if the parent wants the deaf school placement, they will be able to fight for it.

dd, you keep making claims about deaf schools, but do you actually have any personal experience with any? You keep saying i don't have a clue, but i have successfully argued two deaf school placements for a child as well as adding ASL at an oral school...what iep experience at deaf schools are you pulling from?
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Yes, parents are a huge factor in placement, but if school administrators and places like Clarke tell them that " Oh they don't need Deaf Schools or formal programs", most parents will believe that. Not too many parents are educated on the advantages of Deaf Schools/formal sizable programs.
That is what the administors are counting on. That way they can get away with providing minimal hoh style accomondations (with MAYBE a 'terp) and claim to be covering their asses. Remember it's been many years since Deaf School has been the norm.
What does arguing for a Deaf School placement have to do with knowing how fucking crappy accomondations and attitude is in the mainstream? I actually do have quite a bit of experiance. Quite a few of my friends' kids (hoh and deaf) attend Deaf Schools or sizable dhh programs, and the difference between their experiance at their schools and hoh kids (I know many hoh kids in the mainstream) experiance in the mainstream (where it's just minimal accomondations) is completely and totally different!
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my problem is with the huge assumptions you are making. You are assuming that parents are idiots. You are assuming that deaf schools provide appropriate services. You assume that mainstream programs don't provide supports. In my experience ALL of these assumptions are flatly incorrect.
 
I'd like to think that most parents are active in seeking out what their child needs. It does seem that sometimes people look to the "professionals" for the answers (whether it be doctors, administrators, teachers etc.) and the fact is that the "professionals" aren't always correct. That's why you have to do your own research.

I agree that the mainstream experience isn't ideal, but the School for the Deaf isn't always a perfect fit either. My son falls between the two worlds, as he does have some residual hearing. He has a bilateral severe hearing loss, but with his HA's on and the right environment he can hear a lot of what's being said, although not everything.

We don't have any other placement options, which is unfortunate. I think magnet programs would help children like my son. I think the social aspect of having peers who also have a hearing loss is crucial. Aside from having educators who are actually knowledgeable about deafness. It seems that I am constantly having to educate, and re-educate those surrounding him. Many seem to think that because he can speak well that he doesn't have any challenges.

Hello!! He has a significant hearing loss; and while expressively he does well, receptive language is another story.

I think that the education of DHH individuals should be opened up a bit more. I don't think it should just be the school for the deaf or only mainstream. Somewhere in-between would better serve those who have some residual hearing but still a significant hearing loss.

If my son were profoundly deaf, he would be at the school for the deaf. The fact is that the way it's set up now it wouldn't be appropriate for him.
 
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CSign said:
I'd like to think that most parents are active in seeking out what their child needs. It does seem that sometimes people look to the "professionals" for the answers (whether it be doctors, administrators, teachers etc.) and the fact is that the "professionals" aren't always correct. That's why you have to do your own research.

I agree that the mainstream experience isn't ideal, but the School for the Deaf isn't always a perfect fit either. My son falls between the two worlds, as he does have some residual hearing. He has a bilateral severe hearing loss, but with his HA's on and the right environment he can hear a lot of what's being said, although not everything.

We don't have any other placement options, which is unfortunate. I think magnet programs would help children like my son. I think the social aspect of having peers who also have a hearing loss is crucial. Aside from having educators who are actually knowledgeable about deafness. It seems that I am constantly having to educate, and re-educate those surrounding him. Many seem to think that because he can speak well that he doesn't have any challenges.

Hello!! He has a significant hearing loss; and while expressively he does well, receptive language is another story.

I think that the education of DHH individuals should be opened up a bit more. I don't think it should just be the school for the deaf or only mainstream. Somewhere in-between would better serve those who have some residual hearing but still a significant hearing loss.

If my son were profoundly deaf, he would be at the school for the deaf. The fact is that the way it's set up now it wouldn't be appropriate for him.
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what changes would you like to see to make a deaf school placement work for your child?
 
faire_jour said:
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my problem is with the huge assumptions you are making. You are assuming that parents are idiots. You are assuming that deaf schools provide appropriate services. You assume that mainstream programs don't provide supports. In my experience ALL of these assumptions are flatly incorrect.
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She has points. Not all deaf schools are adequate. Not all mainstream schools are adequate. Parents have to make choices with what they're given.

It's rough.
 
In terms of changes to the school for the deaf? That's kind of a difficult question that I don't think I can answer this early in the morning. I still haven't finished my coffee...

I think having schools for the deaf is critical for the students to have an entirely accessible education and social experience. I've heard from some who went to the CSD and weren't happy with the education they had been receiving. I suppose improvement in academics would be one thing. I realize one school isn't indicative of every school though...

As I said, something in between the two would be beneficial for those who have some residual hearing and who have a desire to use their voice. A placement where the entire staff is knowledgeable about deafness, a community of students and teachers who sign, peers who are DHH, yet still have peers who are "typical" whatever that may mean. A placement where parents aren't having to constantly remind the staff about what a hearing loss is, where you can trust that when you send them to school it's an entirely accessible environment and their needs are being met.
 
posts from hell said:
is that the second time you posted that? are you partaking in trolling activity too?
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posts from hell said:
But you knew what you were doing.
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:hmm: You mean the troll didn't? And I should have refrained from sinking to the same level?

I can take your point, but it doesn't make it any less annoying to me when people pontificate on subjects they have absolutely no connection to or knowledge of.

But out of respect for you, I will refrain and actually just ignore.
 
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