Reasonable accomodation?

[Daredevel7]

Okay so being deaf alone DOES affect writing/reading abilities then? I'm guessing because hearing people hear English more and get more practice with the way English is structured and more practice with vocabulary.

In that case, I disagree. People learn more English reading a book than hearing conversations. By this logic, hearing people should know English well, simply by listening.

That's why I don't think it's right to not accommdate hearing people with a bad education but accommodate deaf people with the same bad education.

 

[Jiro]

Linguistic?

That affects writing abilities?

Aren't you thinking of dialects? Accents? Grammar? Syntax?

I think you are comparing an ASL user with an English user. That would apply due to foreign language.

However, I'm talking about simply being able to read/write and recognize sentence structures. Etc.

yes. There is a difference in certain English grammar/syntax/accent for hearies and deafies.

There are many ways to write for same thing. However - there is a certain style depending on your background (assuming it is grammatically correct).

 

[Jiro]

Okay so being deaf alone DOES affect writing/reading abilities then? I'm guessing because hearing people hear English more and get more practice with the way English is structured and more practice with vocabulary.

In that case, I disagree. People learn more English reading a book than hearing conversations. By this logic, hearing people should know English well, simply by listening.

yes there you go. the linguistic difference. Book-style writing and Spoken-style writing.

That's why I don't think it's right to not accommdate hearing people with a bad education but accommodate deaf people with the same bad education.

I agree. there's no excuse. at professional workplace - everybody should be able to write English that's understood by many - no matter what grade level it is. I don't care if you write like 2nd grade as long as I can understand what you're conveying.

Bad grammar leads to miscommunication. miscommunication leads to costly mistakes or legal implication. That's how we lost million-dollars NASA satellite. There was some misunderstanding with measurement system. USA scale and Metric scale.

 

[Beowulf]

I have noticed that for some deaf people they can read English much much better than they can write it. I think most deaf people can write basic English sentences but for some, when it comes to taking it on another notch, they struggle.

I hope I make sense.

Yes you do. I can read Shakespeare and comprehend it, but certainly cannot write in his style, lol. I often wonder how early immersion into ASL affects reading comprehension. Does anyone know?

 

[shel90]

Okay so being deaf alone DOES affect writing/reading abilities then? I'm guessing because hearing people hear English more and get more practice with the way English is structured and more practice with vocabulary.

In that case, I disagree. People learn more English reading a book than hearing conversations. By this logic, hearing people should know English well, simply by listening.

That's why I don't think it's right to not accommdate hearing people with a bad education but accommodate deaf people with the same bad education.

Remember that hearing people already got natural exposure to English during their first 5 years of their lives while deaf children don't so by the time they are ready to read, hearing kids already have some knowledge of English and to deaf children, it is the beginning of learning a new language (that is if they have a strong foundation in ASL) but if a deaf child doesnt have a strong foundation in language whether it is English (through oralism) or signlanguage (SEE or TC), then reading is more difficult.

 

[A]

Okay so being deaf alone DOES affect writing/reading abilities then? I'm guessing because hearing people hear English more and get more practice with the way English is structured and more practice with vocabulary.

In that case, I disagree. People learn more English reading a book than hearing conversations. By this logic, hearing people should know English well, simply by listening.

That's why I don't think it's right to not accommdate hearing people with a bad education but accommodate deaf people with the same bad education.

Which is why we encourage deaf people to read more.

Here's a experiment you can try. Since you were born deaf, find a message board contain plenty of writers and see if they ask you why you write so backward. When they read, they only read in the flow of their auditory mind. When they read our writing, it is like the flow is just shaky and something is not right even if the deaf person's writing is great.

 

[Daredevel7]

yes. There is a difference in certain English grammar/syntax/accent for hearies and deafies.

There are many ways to write for same thing. However - there is a certain style depending on your background (assuming it is grammatically correct).

I don't see how it can be different if it's grammatically correct. If you are talking about different ways of EXPLAINING something or wording things, then yes
obviously. A different way of explaining things is NOT deaf style writing. Is it?

Example, a Spanish person might say "can you get more earth from home depot?" or "can you put more wood in the chimney?"

but it's still understandable.

 

[naisho]

For the first part of the discussion:

I think it's easier to remember the bad than the good @ the workforce.
Hence, the "bad" grammar(ed) deafs leave a taste of disdain that others wouldn't bother with trying to adapt to. Those that are perfectly capable and of good background are noted at first for their abilities, then seen like everyone else in terms of getting work done. Capitalism itself might be the motivator for this one.

On the later part of this discussion:

I've always been wondering about deafs in other nations. As far as I am aware, the deaf in Asia seem to be raised in hearing perspective and can write nearly on the same level, on basic sentence structure and completion. I have no idea about their speech. The other month when a slew of deaf chinese were posting intros, I was reading through all of them. None seemed to be written in "fragmentation" where I had to piece the information together compared to ones written in english.

So the issue I really want to chalk up is, maybe it's not the deaf's methodology of english acquisition, but actually a problem with the English language itself..?

 

[A]

Don't forget to consider the syntax and all that in other languages. It is probably alot easier to understand than English.

 

[TWA]

Okay so being deaf alone DOES affect writing/reading abilities then? I'm guessing because hearing people hear English more and get more practice with the way English is structured and more practice with vocabulary.

In that case, I disagree. People learn more English reading a book than hearing conversations. By this logic, hearing people should know English well, simply by listening.

That's why I don't think it's right to not accommdate hearing people with a bad education but accommodate deaf people with the same bad education.

BINGO. Listening to conversations will give you good control and awareness of idioms and style, but it will not help your grammatical aptitude in writing. In fact, spoken English rarely follows the rules of written grammar. It is only through reading and retaining written information that one improves their writing. Reading and writing is open to all.

 

[Bottesini]

BINGO. Listening to conversations will give you good control and awareness of idioms and style, but it will not help your grammatical aptitude in writing. In fact, spoken English rarely follows the rules of written grammar. It is only through reading and retaining written information that one improves their writing. Reading and writing is open to all.

True! One guy I went to school with who really had no access to spoken English is very successful and very good at writing English in a proper and grammatical manner.

 

[naisho]

Would you consider articles on the internet as forms of written literature*? Maybe even as far as reading the forums where illegitimate use of english is not concerned.

*In terms of language acquisition, not content provided.

 

[TWA]

Would you consider articles on the internet as forms of written literature*? Maybe even as far as reading the forums where illegitimate use of english is not concerned.

*In terms of language acquisition, not content provided.

That's a hazy area. One reason published books are a good source for grammatical knowledge is because they have been groomed over with the eyes of a professional editor. Editors are huge parts of the writing process. Even the most famous writers are subject to editorial influence, which is really just another part of the revising process (in accordance with Vygotsky's theory of proximal development).

In an online message board, like AD for example, there is no editorial regulation, and thus the grammatical information being passed along is not necessarily helpful or worthy of being studied/mimicked.

Rest assured, you can always learn a thing or two about grammar from reading Botti's posts.

 

[A]

and anyone else's post?

 

[Bottesini]

That's a hazy area. One reason published books are a good source for grammatical knowledge is because they have been groomed over with the eyes of a professional editor. Editors are huge parts of the writing process. Even the most famous writers are subject to editorial influence, which is really just another part of the revising process (in accordance with Vygotsky's theory of proximal development).

In an online message board, like AD for example, there is no editorial regulation, and thus the grammatical information being passed along is not necessarily helpful or worthy of being studied/mimicked.

Rest assured, you can always learn a thing or two about grammar from reading Botti's posts.

I love you , Alex! I will now plan on sending christening gifts to all your future children!

 

[TWA]

I love you , Alex! I will now plan on sending christening gifts to all your future children!

I'll name the first one Bottesini!

 

[A]

Congrats Bottesini!

Look like you're the only one because he isn't naming anyone else we should learn from (or writing role model).

 

[naisho]

I don't think they were being totally serious, A. It is just mild conversation.
I wasn't even thinking about AD when I was mentioning forums, I had other sites in mind.

But somehow I do get the feeling if someone really wants to improve their basic grammar, reading and writing in any form is crucial. That even goes for replying on forums when it's a honest attempt at actually writing something. Reading alone (as in being a lurker) would not help much, nor would being a verbose "high" brower.

 

[A]

I still like to know who because I do want to learn. writing is so confusing. no biggie.

 

[Bottesini]

Congrats Bottesini!

Look like you're the only one because he isn't naming anyone else we should learn from (or writing role model).

I don't think it is really a big deal. My father put a lot of time in at the dining table working with me.

Shel already said I am the best creative user of English here.

At any other real life skills, I fail.

Writing is just my talent.